406. Vegetables of Obligation

This is Do by Friday, a weekly challenge podcast with Alex Cox and Merlin Mann. This week's challenge, watch Pee-Wee as himself. Get innocuous That sounded a little bit like Sandstorm and I'm digging at it. Where's um where's that band from? Where's the L C D sound system? They're very New York, right? Uh yes. Or is it Chicago Uh no. DFWS DFI, where is that? D F I D F I label Don't don't worry, don't worry, don't worry. Shhh. Um how you doing? You good? Um I'm doing I'm doing great. How are you? How are you? Oh Is this a time where you're actually asking how I'm doing? Sound. Uh it will be in a second. Okay. Sound system. No, I can I can feign that. Let me look. All right. L C D sound. D F A.

Sorry D F A. Yeah, D F A. I thought it wow thought is it they they seem Yeah, New York. They're from Brooklyn. Let You from Brooklyn? You know that song? That first song that sounded silver. Digga, digga, digga, digga, da-da-da. Get innocuous. I'm singing. I'm singing the shower this morning. Oh. Uh that was a messy start, but I don't you know, I'm a messy bitch. I don't know what that means. It's just something you say and people go sly. Slide. No, no, that's not something extremely trying to do that. Walking into Walgreens here. Oh, I almost sent you and now I Who says that? Doesn't that doesn't Charlie X don't people like Charlie XCS? Who said oh Lord, Lord, Lorne, Lorne said I'm a messy bitch.

She's just She said that recently I don't keep up with the trades. I don't have the fashion section of Apple News Plus like you do. I I trust you to keep me to date on who's saying sleigh. No, get innocuous. That's my word to you today. Dick it diggit digging Alright, you're going to feign interest in my health for a moment. You've sent me an application that I I've been using. Not Really sure the context. I sort of pretended I did. Um you sent P. I believe the app literally uh is called just the letter P. Mm-hmm And I don't know why you sent this to me, but of course I tried it because when someone sends me something that allows me to track bodily fluids, of of course And uh now I That's right, and you're on the hydration grind already.

Oh, I absolutely had an e bottle? I have not had an E bottle. You had a bottle like with it with like a decoder ring on it that you turn to say. Now I know I'm good. Three stars dead. No. What? I I did have an NFC tag on my water bottle for a while, so then every time I would finish it. I would go blip bloop with my phone. It would trigger a shortcut which ran uh uh water minder. That changed a lot of shit in your life. It did. And made you drink more water than you were already drinking? Yes. You gotta take the lessons where you find them, not where they're convenient. Write that down. Yes. My uh like I did write down a bell is a uh cup and I disagree. So tell wire. File a bug. File feedback.

Uh how many gosh darn it um sponsored? That was a comeback album in the mid 80s I didn't know that that was an album until I w went to search reasons why bells aren't cupped. And then I'm like, oh look at it. It's in in album. Now it's a little bit more. Let me see if I can remember the words to the chorus from the single from that record. Because money, spine, paper, lung, kidney, bingo, organs uh uh uh uh uh uh it's a little bit it's a little bit da-da. Is it Billy Joe? It's um it's a band called Wire that that changed changed the world of music over three albums in the late 70s. The the the bands you should have liked instead of the bands you did. I like pavement you know oh they had an oh yeah big ones for me out too they had a big impact uh the ones that I became aware of uh Minutemen would be a big one minor threat um uh Pixies big time Uh you know what I'm gonna write that down.

We're gonna listen to a song from Pink Flag later. Um hey Alex, how you doing? All right. Like literally literally at length. I sent you an app that you use. Yes, and I don't know how I'm doing because this application, unlike every other health app I've used, it it doesn't tell me what I'm supposed to do and how much I should do it. Like it I know that I've taken two P's today and my own. I uh Oh, interesting. Mm-hmm. It's like in the Princess and the Peas. That's a different episode. Uh different episode. I m s uh Keep going. One can almost imagine. This is how this is how we differ though, because I think you you're getting at something where we we do kind of differ. I don't know if we differ.

I think we have a lot of overlap with this stuff, but my dream, as I've said for years and years, really ever since Omnifocus introduced geofencing, which made my brain think about the world a little bit differently. That's when I remember I first started thinking. I want things to push information to me when it's needed and otherwise pull information that I shouldn't have to care about. and learn things about me, right? Like that's that's the dream, right? This is what we're always getting at with the health apps and all that stuff. And this cause I just love the the well it's I'm now I'm ruining my uniform my um ruining my uniform. Oh I just woke up. I'm re hm sorry, I'm coming all over myself is what I'm trying to say.

Um I mean yeah, there's but like I just thought it was a I thought it was a fun well made app where if you dig in there's a lot of stuff in it. Like it's one of those fun like, okay, bells and whistles. This this fella John has really Done lots of fun stuff with it. And I did think it was kind of interesting though, like how often do you pee like am I try am I trying to do anything specific? No, I just think it's kind of a fun app. But you know what what else it did for me is it makes me realize I'm like, hey, wait a minute, I know I peed more than or less than four hours ago, and I forgot to write it down. So it teaches me things not just about my hydration, but maybe more saliently about my presence of mind.

That you you had to make it profound in the end, didn't ya? I just wanted You know about it because John sponsored Rectives and and I really enjoyed the app and I did a really good ad readout. Oh see I'm um Oh are you do you pay No, I mean yes. Oh no, you heard the one I sent you. No, I think I I think I'm um grand they'd in because I have a show theoretically there. So I have to do that. Well that's awesome. Oh wow. Okay, that's cool. Um and uh but this app I d I don't know if Th it's just emojis are indicate like a feeling. Like right now I'm What the fuck are you talking about? It's an app where every here's what you do. You go to the bathroom and on either your watch or your or your phone.

You bring it up and then you say I'm peeing right now and that's all you have to do for the app. Yes, but why uh I've sent you a screenshot of course. Okay. And it's a very well made app. I just don't know if I'm okay. I don't know how often I should pee. Like this feels l I d I don't know because this the one that's a little bit more than a little bit. Yes. No, no, no, no, no. But like it I don't know. I mean it's This this is related to a topic that's related to a topic that's related to a topic that we might talk about today, but kind of goes back to what I said at the top as a half joke. You take lessons where you find them, not where they're convenient. And like I learned I learned something about myself w with almost everything I try if I pay attention.

That's that's the neat part to me. And like I hate feeling so alone in that. I'm surprised how little people learn from just trying something different. You know what I mean? Do you m do you m mm? I mean ChatGPT is another example. Oh my fucking god, you should see what I've done this week with ChatGPT. Oh my god. I've done I've done such incredible shit this week. And like I said to somebody, I this is I said this to Madeline this morning because she's like, oh my God, what what you just what what did you change? Something just worked. And I was like, yeah, I I'm it's frustrating to me, it seems to me. I think one thing that frustrates me is assuming in good faith that people are really mad about ChatGPT and all the ways they say, I understand all the things that are abstract and they don't use it.

But all the things that are abstract and you do use it, you should know better. Like if you tried, you could use it for more things. And it frustrates me that I seem to be using it for something very different. than the people who are all mad about it or the people who imagine that they're mad about it because they think it's just for cheating on tests. And I'm like, no, I just want I just wanna I'm just wanna upload screen grabs of the power draw on all the appliances in my house and have you tell me which ones are most likely to cause problems for me. And it does that. It did that. I fixed my AirPod Maxes again with the help of this thing. It's just one thing after another. I'm completely unencumbered at this point by going in.

and spending the amount of time needed to fix a problem because not only am I getting answers that fix problems, but I'm developing a stronger sense of confidence. In ways I haven't really had in a long time, that I can actually accomplish stuff. That I've got velocity to like f like do stuff. That it doesn't have to just go sit on a list that I organize better. Alright, this isn't a surprise party, but there's been a bit Of a running theme. I'm not sure if you know, but there's been been a bit of a running theme on this show about the frustrations you have around using LLMs and some of the pushback. you get even though you say that it doesn't frustrate you. Well you just find it boring. I don't find it boring.

You might be the only person I know. Well you know Alex it's just no let's not be cu let's not be cute about it. It fucking frustrates me death. The people who are really first of all, everybody's fucking mad. And I'm just so tired of everybody being mad almost exclusively all the time. It is excruciating and it bums me out to go on to Mastodon in particular and I feel I feel like I'm a problem Like everybody is not only mad about AI in general, but they are so bl swatting so blindly at everything related to AI. that like even my little modest little I'm not gonna go I talk less about my little dumb victories because I feel like people hate me because I use an LLM all the time. And I'm not using it to cheat and I'm not using it to make Porn, like I'm using it to figure out what I can do in a house with 15 amp glass glass fuses.

I think that it would be fine if you were cheating on tests and that making consensual porn. That's a good use of it as well. But do people I'm not being cute. No, no, seriously. Do you actually get No, I nobody talks to me about anything, but I can see what people are saying. Alex Alex, have you ever yelled at someone? Maybe even someone famous. Did you ever yell at somebody famous or in your head, but especially on the internet, because they said something about people in general that you took to be a comment about you personally or that affected you personally? Of course you have. It's I don't even want to pursue it. I don't want you to answer. We all do that. And here's the problem. They weren't fucking talking to you.

In some cases, they weren't even trying to be hurtful. They weren't even trying to like Have a hot take. Sometimes you just say a thing and like the just in the context of and the environment in which something like that comes out, it ends up having a weird valence compared to everything else that's going on. And, you know, there was a I mean anyways, that's the part that's the part that that bums me out and frustrates me because I already feel so fucking lonely online. And then on top of it all, like all the people who I want to be pals with are out there just talking about like hanging everything AI from the highest rafters for all kinds of reasons And what else do we know? Let's go back to first principles, Clarice.

What's the first thing? Everybody's fucking mad. Yeah? Okay. So what do we have left? Being mad in public with other people about something. and picking a side. That's all we have left. And it's so fucking annoying to me. Just that that's how we are now. It's so deeply uncreative. I've tried to be low-key in liberal arts about it, but everybody's gotten really fucking boring and in a groove. Unless Uh unless Unless. Unless that is actually maybe that's how people are all the time, or maybe that's I'm trying to be generous about this. Maybe online is their chance to be a grandpa. and be mad about all the stuff that they perceive as changing, about things that they never really understood that well to begin with.

And that's a great grandpa topic, and it is fucking tedious as shit to me. And like I I d so I I'm trying not to sound defensive. If I were sounding defensive, what I would say is, you fucking people are so stupid, you can't even you can't even figure out how to use the Coke machine. And you're mad about all the vendors that are being put out of work and all the electricity that's being drawn and d b immigration. Okay, I get it. I get it. But like Not everything is everything. And like I it just it it it bums me out. In a similar way probably to the way that I've tried to stop saying I'm sick of hearing about everybody's sexual intercourse because I realize that that's a hurtful thing to say to somebody.

uh even though I don't like hearing about sexual intercourse. But I don't want people who are out there trying to figure out who they are think that I hate them abstractly because I'm tired of of hearing about coitus. Anyways, it's just it's the it's just a bummer. And like the more the more success I have with this on the reg, um, the more it's just I feel sort of um I feel I feel left out. Like I don't want to be mad with other people. I would like them to be excited about Rachmanonoff with me, but that's clearly not gonna happen. That's not fruitful. Because you get the three people who know Rock Maninoff and are mad that you got you referred to Rock 3 wrong. And then you got everybody else who's like, Yeah, but like what about the orange man?

And it's like, oh my fucking god. I'm not going to pretend I understand that reference, but put out a piece. And I don't care. This you sound more and more frustrated every time you have some No, I like what you said. I don't I don't care. It was funny. It was just a good bit laughing. It was really funny when you did it. That's all. Thank you. Go ahead. Oh, you did a bunny. No, no, no, sorry. You did uh sort of acknowledge this. The more success great success. you have and the more excitement you have, the more frustration you also have with The more frustration I I experience. Okay. No no no no. Hey th fuck you. I'm agreeing with you you piece of shit. Calm down. Did you have a ca big caffeine drink?

I'm drinking it right now. How big is it? It's it's uh sixteen flowing ounces. Yeah, it's it's medium size. Um the success. kind of reminding me of how I felt like post high school when I suddenly realized how boring people were when it was like, oh, so the feelings you had about sh the sort of people who are different than you, like not just gay people, but anyone different than you. That's not a bit that we did not to get in trouble. That's like actually how you feel. Oh, oh, that's a bummer. And then there's this feeling. Excuse me, behavior about class. It's it's it's it can be very easy to try and tie that too much to a certain time instead of just saying, hey, you know what? Being young's fucking hard.

And when you're 12, you want anybody to be your friend. Like if any if any if three people will let you be in their group, you'll say whatever the fuck you have to say to get along with them. And don't lie, everybody did it. Every uh not everyone, but a lot of people are good. We were all really good. I in particular. I I I was never like that. I never thought he was funny at all. I never thought he was funny. I never thought anyone was funny. Didn't you know? He says the chocolate cake behind you. And they go, Dad is great. He gives us chocolate cake. I'd have to have a lie. I c I don't care. I could have some kind of Paul Verhoven. procedure to remove Louis CK and Bill Cosby from my head, but I would be a different person.

So is it about the anger online? Self-canceling it's Stephen Miller says more people should self-cancel. They'll give him a thousand dollars to self-cancel. Thing I it's a small unhelpful thought I have. He's getting betrayed, brailed by the Dewey Man. I don't think I don't know. No. I think that's much worse. I don't think he's being cucked by Elon Musk. I think he's being cucked by like the hot younger assistant who is following them around. The uh y but there's always someone younger. Like when Sona when Sona did the book and then Connor had to get a different uh the assistant for his assistant. I think uh see now this is a headline. I was thinking that uh uh Broadway here big balls was the the one in the case.

staff photo of one of the Doge guys and I was just like Jesus fucking Christ I mean it looked like a high end yearbook photo But uh like a guy who's a little bit of a handful and it's like Jesus Christ, he's canceling all people's health stuff. My Python is deleting everything. Well, you've just indicated, I think, people's frustrations with uh artificial intelligence is wrapped up with some of the people who have made it and it is just the fun part of uh for some people. Not no, not even the fun part. Just sometimes the one thing they have as especially in uh m par I guess on parts of the internet that I used to think of as uh I d I don't know, a place to find community. And you're saying that you feel like I'm gonna be a little bit of a I isolated and have you just ever thought like maybe i it is time to just move on from these uninteresting pe uh uh uh of from a big block of people from mast like the weirdos on mastodon who are shouting about I mean they're not yelling at me that's the thing Mmm, but they're frustrating you.

Like why look at the right? Well, I want to have friends, Alex. Yeah, there are many, many people who would want to be your friends. I th when I was listening to an episode of Recdiffs the other day that I really enjoyed. Yes, the um Rec Reconcilable Differences is the more popular program that Merlin Mann has with our friend John Syracusa. Friend is a strong word. I don't want to make presumptions about our relationship. And uh Acquaintance of the pod. Yeah qu uh on the pause. Putting out a lot of compute. It's big spend. You uh you said though uh I th it like took me aback. You said you thought of yourself as retired, I believe? No, I think what I said is sometimes I feel retired. Okay. Why why do you retired?

Because you're No, that's that's way too subtle for me to unpack. Because I in order for me to unpack what that means, which I was happy to say to to John, because it's true, but it's really subtle. And if I explained it, I would sound like a fucking idiot and people would go, well, I'm not satisfied with your explanation about why you would say something like that. You know what a big part of it is, Alex? Did you catch the like 20 minutes before that about relevance? Did you happen to catch that part? You know who doesn't feel as relevant? Who? Who Marlon? A lot of times people who are retired. Okay. So and like it's not it's not like I've got an estate. Got it? So I'm working. I'm still working, like whether people like what I'm making or not.

But for practical purposes, I might as well be retired. I don't think I have a future in a lot of careers. And that's that's really different from, oh, must be nice. Oh my god, I keep forgetting to tell you this. Fuck. I've recently discovered rediscover, well, kind of rediscovered, but Gary Golman, a funny comedian who I I forgot. I learned about from mostly from Conan, but Madeline had told me about his really good special on Probably HBO, whatever. Look for something called, I think it's called The Big Depression or the Great Depression. And it's about the incredible depression that he went through and managed to pull out of. And he He's really, really smart and he really really talks about it.

But anyway, just real quick, I gotta tell you this. Because is it not fair to say must be nice? Practically a catchphrase on here. Mm-hmm. Must be. He's talking about like when he talks to his mother. And like and I think the example he gave was something like, Mom, mom, I finally it went really well. It's kind of like Maria Bamford. Oh, you know, she couldn't stand up. Um that well your work is so important. But something like where where he's like, Mom, I did really good. I I bought this uh this espresso machine. It's really cool. And his mother goes, oh, excuse me, must be nice. And he says, I should tell you that in my family, uh, must be nice is how we say congratulations. It's so fucking true.

Can you just say congratulations? Why do you have to say must be nice? What a horrible thing to say. Sorry, I just had to tell you that. No, no, no. The um the retirement part. Uh no, I mean I don't actually feel retired. Uh I I don't there's not that much benefit in me talking about my life anymore, unfortunately. But um but Yeah, you know, you ever notice also that like the people you a lot of what I notice is people being on mad online about kind of the same thing. Kind of the same things everybody's always been mad about, right? Those idiots in Congress and bad customer service and change. And like, but that's a common cause that we can find with people. It's a f fairly low common denominator with which to bond with your fellow villagers.

Which torch are you bringing? You know, uh kind of thing. But it's always been real. like the shittiness of teenagers, it's always been real. It's just right now it's it's super amplified and all of my usual tricks, not for being slightly famous. But for developing meaningful relationships with new people, uh, I I have not I have not cracked that nut yet, which is another problem retired people have. Do uh but uh do retired I I don't know, the way that you say retired people like if I think that in passing. We we oughtn't ex i we oughtn't over inflate its value into something that's a big deal. I don't actually feel retired, Alex. In the context of what he was saying, I said that. And what I'm telling you and our listeners is the part to take away from that is not because I don't have any fucking money.

What it should tell you is If anybody listened to the part that's not as fun to talk about, I'm trying to make my peace with my increasing lack of relevance and having it not be a problem for me. And ask 20 people my age how they're working on that. And I'll bet a lot of them weren't. They're mad. They're mad about because the thing that used to make them relevant went away. What was the thing that made you relevant? Me? Yeah. Um, I mean there was the like the the the bin the the the I wanted to be in. Well, you know, the self-help guy, there was that stuff. Uh I mean I used to play in bands. Uh I've done a lot of I've done some stuff, you know, from time to time. What what's the question? All of those things are still I don't think you need to be a type, but you know what I super don't want to be right now is an influencer.

Even if I could, like I wouldn't want to be. So, I mean, I'm trying to figure all of that stuff out. I'm trying to figure out along the lines of John's excellent topic of goals and accomplishments, you know, trying to figure out like w what I what I'd like to be doing. Like I'm always trying to figure that out. Like everybody, I suppose, but like I'm trying to like, you know, um I don't know, it's really boring and self-involved to talk about, but Oh yeah, but uh that's super super super boring. And that's I'm talking about anything you want, but just don't don't take my topic and try to turn it into something else is all I would ask. No, I uh am trying to figure out what is the important part uh clear uh clearly?

Or the interesting part as of the retirement remark impossible. No, no, not the retirement part. But uh like I mentioned before, the goals and a couple of like that was in passing But you had a great conversation. Yeah, I thought that I thought that was really I thought that was really good. And I I like what we both had to say about it. And I yeah, I was just surprised about w I'm s I don't know, it was surprising to hear The way that I I'm I was more like in line with what John was saying about goals Because uh what was that? Like uh sometimes we oughtn't assume that people have heard the episode. John John uh Syracusa was saying on the base God this is so deep um on the basis of of recent Roderick on the line where Roderick was talking about one to put out an album.

And he's going back in the studio. He's written some he's written like ten songs, et cetera, et cetera. And I think that just to you tell me, uh Syracuse was tossing out the idea, like once you've had However you want to look at it, God I hate these words. Goals, you've had accomplishments, you've done the thing, you've done some things. Some things worked out, some things didn't. But as you get older, should you have goals that you make for yourself? in the absence of the goals that are forced on you by other people, like and what does that look like, kind of, right? Mm-hmm. And but he uh just had I think a way uh I guess bigger scope on what is and isn't a goal. And I could be a little bit more than a little bit.

I think where we seem to differ in a kind kind of slightly funny way is m and if I if I could risk saying it probably because I've thought about this a little more than him, but He to me to me depending on how he feels like defining it, a goal could be either a goal or a project or a task. And those are real different to me. Yeah, but s sometimes my we're right now, uh a goal it that Maddie, my uh perfect wonderful spouse who's having like me having a time, like his goal is to build this bookshelf. that has been in the corner. Okay. What have they done to you people? What have they done to all of you people? All you young people, they've ruined you. Yeah. Uh, his goal and no, because the first uh part of that task is getting out of bed.

I'm being silly. That is that is what just in my nomenclature I would call that a project. I well. I will either have a building. building a bookshelf is a project and the goal at the end is just to s like s survive. I mean I all all of my uh I have had my dream job. I've It's really conceited to s say but I'm happy with mm the accomplishments I've mmm had because now, you know, but didn't expect to live this long. Just statistically not, you know, not not Not too likely. And my the one goal I really have is is top surgery, and that's kind of most of what my time, energy, and attention goes into. But other than that, uh like the scope of what I consider goals has just really, really narrowed.

And that's in that sense. Yeah. In that case that yeah. So without being ridiculous about it. I I see what you're saying. Like like I say, in my nomenclature, because these words have a a life-changing kind of meaning to them. Um that's why I I would call that a project rather than a goal. But no, that that totally makes sense as a goal. I mean, sure. The goal is I want to have a bookshelf where there didn't used to be one, or I want to not have a bookshelf and know why. The well that's the thing. Uh, which people don't usually include in the equation, which is a bummer. Something ChatGPT has helped me realize. That's the Maybe a bookshelf isn't the best answer for what you need. I mean the Maybe maybe a 10-song album is not a good goal.

Maybe learning where you can buy lumber is a good goal. Right? Yeah, but as S th that is a different goal, I I think. Like the okay, but like play with me in the space, dude. You're you're the one who brought it up. Yeah, and that's the way that's what I was trying to say to Roderick is As your friend, I'm here to tell you you are in no position to just announce you're gonna put out a 10-song album right now. I think that is a personally, that is I would okay. Sure. Okay. If you can do it, that's great. But if you can't, you're gonna feel worse about it and you're gonna be further away and you'll have wasted that time. And that's why I was trying the thing I'm trying to get at, the thing I'm trying to counsel all my kids about, and the thing that runs through all this fucking shit, if somebody would listen is quit obsessing with the product and k start focusing on the process.

If start stop hating process and start realizing that process is all that there is. Especially, I mean, we're not building a bridge, most of us. If you're building a bridge, that's a different kind of thing. The classic example in project management. Like, but even building a bridge, there's different models for how you can choose to approach that. And you don't do it all in one day just because you're in a hurry. Like there's there's constraints to all of these things and the reason I choose these words with care is because they have an impact. If you don't understand the difference, do you don't know what priority and goal and task and project. If you don't know what those terms mean in your own head, is it any wonder that everything's such a muddle?

So the thing I wrote down this morning, because you had mentioned you wanted to talk about this, something for the document, is that I think I'll speak for myself. In my own life, some of my favorite are accomplishments, some of my favorite things that I have accomplished are not because of goals, but in spite of them. Mm-hmm. And that's he he was very into this. He he seemed and he'll he will he will disagree with this, I'm sure. But what I got was he was saying goals and accomplishments, which are kind of like not two sides of a coin, but a goal is something in the future that you're trying to do and an accomplishment is a goal that you finished. And the the reason I like the word accomplishment is like Well, hey dude, what if you had some fucking amaz what if you had six amazing accomplishments that are way more fucking interesting than your original goal?

Did you fail at your quote goal? Because learning you don't need a bookcase can save you a lot of hammering. I uh uh well that's c because when I think of accomplishments, I Yeah, they rarely correlate with goals. Sometimes it was in the I just got a bad taste in my mouth about goals. I just I've gotten to I feel like I've gotten to directly choose so few goals in my life and the goals in my life that I did get to freely choose, I had no fucking business choosing. Most of the time, I I think that's the other thing of like uh I I think I'm not as attached to accomplishing a goal necessarily because If you know, because that I don't know, it's more of a moving uh charge. Well, by yeah, by uh your definition and I guess then why are you saying then why are you saying that I'm not sure if Alex don't try to change what I'm saying.

What is a failure then? Like what's the fail state? Unless you know what the internet is doing. No, I'm I'm those are not a good idea unless you know what you're doing. Unless you have business making goals. You have business. You have It's sensible to create goals about things where you understand what it is that you're making a goal about. If you're trying to make a goal about something when you're really just trying to find new information, how can you do anything but fail? The first first step in most things, the second step, like I say, second step in almost everything is infrastructure. And then the first step in almost everything is usually information. Well, how do you it's the Dreyfus Brothers again?

Like how do you know how to even pose what the goal is? Well, then there are people who are like, okay, but I gotta stick with it. Because remember my dad got mad at me because I wasn't good at soccer and didn't apply myself. So I gotta stick to my goals, my goals, my goals. And you're like, okay, well at what point do you realize that like you don't really want to sleep in a race car bed anymore? And yet you've spent $190,000 in ten years of your life trying to get that race car bet. Well, wouldn't it have been nice to know earlier? that all those goals were things that people put on you to keep you in line and to make you feel shame about what you're accomplishing and more saliently not accomplishing.

And at a certain point in life Maybe those those goals should be something not only that you get some agency over, but that also um are having those goals helping you. Because if they're not, that might be one reason why a person is sad. That's all. Then do you think there's a better like is there a reason to have Goals. Yeah, there absolutely is. I mean like say saving up for vacation, I guess there's that kind of stuff. But I'm also just saying, like, I can't get away from this and I pulled it out of my ass, but I really b I realize I do believe this heavily. Process beats product. almost all the time. I mean, unless or until you are, oh my God, I watched the craziest video last month probably about making pumper nickel bread.

And um it was really fascinating because like I'm not a huge fan of pupper nickel, but like it's one of those breads that's like it's got like three ingredients or like Four ingredients? Like it's crazy. It really is. It's like almost like something if you you could make it home. You just put four things in and do a thing and then it becomes bread. But like it's a really big deal. Not many people make it. And this this dude and his little company, his little family company, um, they make pumper nickel bread and they know how to do that. Right? But having watched that video, you know what I didn't say? Well my goal now is to get that good at pumper nickel bread Because for all kinds of reasons.

First of all, I don't really like pumpernickel bread. I don't have the facilities. I I don't like there's there's just a million ways. And I hope that you'll see that I'm kind of going somewhere with this, because I feel like that's not that different than the way we start getting in the bad habit of creating goals based on bullshit to begin with. Whether that is being a rock star uh uh uh being the most handsome boy in Albany, New York. Like whatever you're you s you go and you set this goal for yourself. And again, remember that strap on shame is always there to help you out. I'm not saying you shouldn't have things you want to accomplish, but I think the words personally do matter. And no, I'm not saying goals are a bad.

I'm not even saying building a bookshelf is a bad idea, but You know, like Christopher Alexander says, you know, like every every environment exists in another environment. There's a context and a surrounding there's a surrounding context for everything that you do, especially in a lived environment. And that's why I end up saying dumb shit like first make a hole. I mean, which my wife thinks is like the dumbest thing in the world. I'm like, honey, first we've got to make a hole. And she's like, what are you talking about? I'm like, because we're assuming that we have a place. Like today this morning we had to clean up the refrigerator. And it's so fun for me to watch the family clean up the refrigerator because they have no idea what they're doing.

And and but they just do stuff like they just grab stuff and put on the counter. And I guess somebody throws the rest of that out. Or, you know, some of the stuff goes or you dump a bunch of like six week old kale that you're definitely gonna eat. You know, one of those one of the vegetables of obligation that you buy to keep in your museum. And then like that just stinks up the trash really bad and everybody's mad at me. It's like, oh well yeah, but like Don't put garbage in the garbage that's already garbage. You could just take that right on out to the car. It's great to want to clean up the refrigerator. It's really good to clean out the refrigerator if you know why you're cleaning out the refrigerator, if you know what's gonna go in there when you're done, if anything.

And saliently, what you can learn from what you just did cleaning that out. We love to skip the what we learned part. And what we learned is that we have a food museum full of vegetables of obligation. title. Well it needs oh it's already been a little bit more than we don't we don't learn we don't learn from that. We don't learn from that and maybe that's okay. But like let's say I'm not picking on Maddie. Maddie Maddie wants a bookshelf. Well how big a bookshelf what's it for uh the you know those kinds of things and this is the kind of thing where like me and my little friend make a lot of progress very quickly on these kinds of things and where I often find I don't need to make a big bookshelf at all.

If I start out with the idea of Daddy Need Bookshelf. I can get fucked up in numerous ways if I'm looking at the product. Do you follow on that part? If I'm looking at the product rather than the process. Yes. And you don't need to get as stupid as like 'cause is it for books? Is it for my little dolls? Is it so you don't even need to get into that kind of stuff. And this is not a perfect idea of this, but I just I see so often in my life and in other people's lives where they get so attached to a certain phrasing. And I'm and I'm and I'm gonna reread Wittgenstein this week, but the they get obsessed with a certain English language phrasing about their life. I'm a content creator, or I'm a Taurus, or I'm making a bookshelf.

And we have these things that we say and we enunciate in English language an idea about how we are, who we are, and what the future will. Pretend. And just to say like oh I want to build a bookshelf wasn't a big deal. You know, you can work it out, you figure it out. But like you get too many of those things where you just said a sentence and now that's who you aren't yet. That's a lot to put on yourself unless you know what the fuck you're doing, or unless you can just live with an extreme amount of cognitive dissonance and absolutely no attachment to the actual physical actions in your life, he said, going into his rant about personal productivity. Um but no, I think we fool ourselves so much, and I think so much of it comes out of trauma and shame.

Did you ever feel that? Like did you ever did you ever get like I think an example I gave with uh Syracuse, like, hey, you know, all your brothers and sisters like soccer. Did you ever feel anything like that? Did you ever feel I want to leave this open, but I want to provide enough direction. Did you ever feel that like, oh, Alexandra, why can't you be more like Tommy? Or why can't you be more like your friend Joseph or whatever. Like, hey, they don't seem to have any problem being great at soccer. Like, why aren't you applying yourself? Do you remember that feeling? of of people like kind of giving you without even like saying like they've you don't even realize that they've created that goal for you.

Whether that's being good at soccer or in your case. Maybe it was did you want to play flute? Th I think this is where maybe we differ in that I still have that feeling and try to disconnect from that as much as possible. Um the feeling of shame I'm fighting it every single day, Alex, up and down. No, dude, I that's that's kind of the theme of the but don't don't you wish don't you wish we could talk about it more? Because it makes us seem weak and vulnerable and the the the trauma and the Uh shame is so big and believe me, nobody wants to talk about it. People are ashamed because they're a big fat ass who smokes, and just because it's January 1st, nothing changed. It didn't work again. It must be me.

Well, maybe that's not maybe that's not your first goal. Maybe your first goal is to start introducing your into your life more changes in environment that disrupt the comfort of your patterns. Did you thought of that? What does that mean? Well, if you're still smoking and you meant to stop smoking, is it what have you changed about your environment? Well, first of all, you stopped buying cigarettes, did you throw out the ashtrays? Did you like tell everybody in your family that you're gonna stop? Did you do that? Well it doesn't matter. Well, I I don't care, but I'm just saying. Like, did you set up those conditions? If you want to lose weight, did you stop d number one, did you stop buying potato chips?

Like just putting up a calendar and flipping it over does not make you a different person. And that's that's obviously that's the easiest example of this that I can give. But there are a lot of us that have absolutely no business fronting about the kinds of goals that we imagine other people would be impressed if we would do. Meanwhile, saliently to this little sad guy over here, I'm stacking up accomplishments like fucking cord would Like I'm doing all kinds of shit all the time that's crazy. Not just not just with ChatGPT, but like just with the like Just with the basic like nascent curiosity of not being too cleft to the idea of who I am or who the world thinks I am, and instead developing a curiosity about what the opportunities are for me and the world to do next.

Maybe I'll build a bookcase. But if I do want to build a bookcase, I'm gonna build it like a person. And I'm gonna really think through this process and I'm gonna have these steps and I'm gonna do a thing and like whatever. Like It can be so invigorating. And I like I said to John, and then I'll I'll stop. Um like I said to John, my frustration and observation is There are a lot of people who don't want to admit how fucking mad at themselves they are because they never reached some goal or other goals. And meanwhile, those same people could very well be happily rolling along looking at little accomplishments if they could just learn to appreciate the things that they accomplished in a given day.

You managed to brush your kids' hair. and get them in the car with their lunch packed. Like and nobody cried? I'm this is not a that's not a bit. This is not a motivational speech. This is you that's your fucking life. Why couldn't you appreciate that one fucking good morning you have? Instead of being mad about how you're not vice president with your own parking space or whatever. Or first chair flautist. I would be so that's Uh I it's I guess maybe this is uh I'm almost like reverse chicken probleming because I just can no longer uh no, I can't imagine wanting that, but it's just I'm so far being the kind of person who wants uh fancy coaches. You're pretty hard on yourself about goals. Um uh no but you you you are very easily disappointed in yourself if I could say yeah oh absolutely but I I'm trying and I think f um pretty successful in acknowledging accomplishments even if they uh I even if I f stumble into them, mm, like, oh y yeah, today uh it It uh w I wasn't as uh anxio uh anxious like uh oh today like it's a And doesn't it sometimes happen where like it maybe it could be like even at the end of the day you're like um almost like your P app.

Like at the end of the day you go like, oh, you know what? Today was not as bad as it has been lately. I've had probably two or three fewer of those incidents that make me feel how I feel Like it's like, oh, that was kind of an accomplishment, you know? Well the that's why the P app is unironically sort of part of the whole like little accomplishment of The the project of just experiencing little accomplishments. Like all of the silly little things I track, like um my uh water and uh uh peeing. I I I I track a lot. With datum. Like, man, I I I can find patterns. The well and because I do that in a s like silly fun way, it's much easier to track things that are less fun, like uh the panic things or like intrusive thoughts or mood and having uh it's like all right if I quote unquote f failed at uh doing a gratitude journal or whatever, well hey, I still know that I drank water today and I'm not gonna get dizzy or whatever.

Like m No, is part of that a presence of mind thing like where where there are people I will meet today at one point who would probably say, Oh, I forgot to drink more water today. But in your case Isn't it possible you could actually have kind of forgotten to drink water? I mean, like isn't that kind of a thing for you? Yeah, yeah. I mean just with just with life stuff. Yeah. Okay. And like with the fourth year of medicine and stuff, right? Like you need to like make sure not not just to be like some aspirational OCD sufferer, but to just know that like, you know, like the thing I do with like when I take my sleeping pills, I don't want to take my sleeping pills twice, which I know I have done.

I've probably done it five times this year. I couldn't tell you when, but that's the point. That's the problem. And so I do get a little I pushing up a little against some slightly OCD adjacent behavior, but where I'm like, I write down when I take my medicine. Like and now I know. And if I always do that, then I'll always know. And then eventually maybe I won't have to worry about it as much. But the not knowing makes me unhappy and makes me feel a little bit unmoored. But you know, that doesn't mean I have to be a nut about it forever, but I don't know. I feel like with the stuck kind of behavior that you and I do with tracking stuff, I think other people will probably look at it as slightly pathological, but it feels wholesome to me.

Uh it it'll sounds and looks like it without context until you sit down with someone and explain it, which happens fairly often when someone's curious w uh about it. And I I I guess come across in both uh both online and in real life uh more vulnerable people and maybe it's because I am uh people assume that I am weak and vulnerable. Definitely vulnerable. Hopefully a little less weak, but mmm weak on most days. Yeah. And uh maybe uh I I don't know. I think there are a lot of people much more open to being vulnerable and it is probably out of loneliness, but they're not the people shouting on Mastodon about injustices they don't understand because that was Well a lot of the stuff they do I mean like I I'm not trying to say that everybody's stupid or that everybody's ignorant or any of that stuff.

I Would it interest any I hope it wouldn't. Would it interest anybody to know how I feel about a lot of what's going on in the world? Well It might, but it probably wouldn't, because they've already got a lot of that from other people, but don't for one fucking minute assume that just because I'm not out there acting like a homemade dick or a headless chicken that I have any less of a concern about a lot of stuff than other people do. It's just I think it's so fucking boring. I don't know what the future of it is and can't you just make one thing that isn't about the discourse. Can't you just it's just it's just infrastructure for infrastructure's sake. It's just scaffolding all the way down.

It's just this It's like a permanent scaffolding of anger. A lot of people, or at least I know that I myself tend to make a lot of things, but to put them on the internet is to expose yet more vulnerability and then like at the at the very least not having uh Mm scaffolding of anger is really g I'n I meant to type it and I didn't scaffolding of anger scaffolding all the way down. Uh it's very good. Um but uh Shar sharing that not only makes you more vulnerable, but people see it as signaling that you don't you know, you don't care and I it there's only I I think I have g uh I I've lost my tolerance for those People. I I don't know. I guess I I'm fascinated And a little bit upset that you think you're irrelevant or that it has something to do.

Oh no, why is why is that uh funny? Because Like what makes you more or less relevant than not like influencers or whatever. That's a different genre. First of all, if you misunderstood what I was trying to say, but it would be frankly inexcusable if that then became the public discourse on how I am. That would bum me out. I would not want something that I said very subtly in the midst of some very fucking smart other real stuff. I would like would not like the real stuff to get lost because now we've got a new sign to hang on Merlin. Because you don't. That's the thing. It's like, uh no, what I said was, I'm not saying I'm irrelevant, but would it matter? Once you're irrelevant, it doesn't matter if you're irrelevant.

I said less relevant. And like again, the thing you can't, I mean, I can't get into it. Just just go go be good and be right and get your cheers. But like just don't please don't overbin me, like unless you really know what it is you're binning. Um and when I'm saying go out and make things, I'm saying make anything besides the most obvious fucking thing that you could do to fit in. And people, not Alex, but the world. Please, please keep an eye on something that I try to keep an eye on with myself. And I really want people to keep an eye on this. Is there a chance That the most improbable thing in the world is happening and that some of you who never intended to be are turning into bullies. Is it possible that you suffered under bullies in life?

Is it possible that you unintentionally have integrated messages about power. It got encoded on you or into you in ways that you never liked or expected. But when you're really pressed, you become a bully the same way that a lot of us were bullies, which was 80% of the people above you are bullying you. And then 19% of people below you might be getting bullied by you and you just don't know it. Are you acting like a bully, guys? Because a lot of you seem to be kind of like acting like bullies. No, that's what I wanted you to say. Thank you. Are you are you a bully? Because you're starting to sound like a bully. Why are you taking your shoes off so I don't break your nose? But um just I we don't need to talk about this, we don't need to comment on that, but those of you who have a good heart.

and are open to self-awareness, um, start noticing how often you could be mistaken for a bully. Because even though nobody nobody looks at themselves at a bully as a bully, every bully's got their reasons, right? I mean, most of the bullies I knew were abused. in a variety of ways came from as we used to say when I was a kid, broken homes, you know, um all those kinds of bullies You know, and oh oh we all we all feel like oh yeah, you know, we all got we all got uh got got gospel about that when we finally grew up one, ooh wow, really makes you think. You know, bullies had a really hard life. And like, oh, the bullies got bullied and wow, really makes you think. And now I see people out there swinging so fucking hard at strangers just because they think It's an encounter they can win.

And how different is that from taking lunch money from an even wimpier kid? It fucking sucks. Catch yourself becoming a bully and fucking knock it off. America? Brian Wilson died. Look at that. What? Yeah, 82. 82 years young. Um Um and and what I said was, and I cause cause this is and I'm not uh again again, uh last thing I want to do is portray Sarah because I think Circus and I were actually agreeing on a ton of stuff, at least in my head. But um Um in my in my way that I put this, and the word stuff does matter to me in my mental model, um, I want to just repeat this though, that I do feel like a lot of my accompl accomplishments uh that arrived, I don't want to say that I did. That's a pretty that's a pretty um self centered way to put it, but accomplishments I was lucky enough to like manage.

Like o my accomplishment accomplishments often occurred in spite of goals and not because of them. And I'd be happy to return to that, but I think that's something to really think about. Because like, did you catch that analogy about a tunnel? Everybody always wants to put you in a tunnel. Like, you know, a tunnel in the sense of, well, we're gonna drop you in this tunnel, and at the other end, you're gonna be X. You're gonna be a high school graduate or you're gonna be engaged or you will be, you know, a doctor, or whatever. And I like that analogy though because A, there's no turns in that tunnel. All there is is getting in and getting out. And B, I love the thing I like that I said is that anytime you're doing anything other than directly dashing to the other end of the tunnel, everybody's wondering what's taking so long.

And I think that's a pretty good analogy for a lot of things. W w the upshot of that, at least in my probably unkind POV, is all the people who were like putting you in a tunnel and making those goals and telling you what to do. They're the ones that are more than happy to tell you, like constantly remind you, you should be out of the tunnel by now. You're like, dude, I never wanted to be in the tunnel to begin with. This was not my tunnel. Not my monkeys. Like I didn't want I didn't want to be in this process that has to be done at in this order at this time, doing it this certain way. And then at the end of your life, that's just a bunch of your life that's gone now because of what somebody else told you you had to do.

And then you what do you do? You spend five years hopefully feeling less shitty about the fact you never finished a college major you never wanted to take or like whatever. I mean goals, man, goals are some bullshit. Whereas and this is this is so fucking goddamn it, this is real. This is so what color is your parachute shit from like when I first started looking for a job. And that book was, you know, like for a lot of young people, it was really helpful to me because it taught me a way to think laterally, not only about what I'd achieve quote unquote achieved, not only my resume, right? But also to think laterally about the future I could want to have. It isn't just a matter of going like which library sciences career will you get into?

It's a matter of going like, oh, you know, I did realize that like, you know. I I feel dumb about the fact that I worked in retail for this long. But yeah, I learned how to use a cash register. I did deposits at night. Whatever it is. You know what I mean? It differs for everybody. But if you're so mad at yourself that you're not yet an MD that you don't appreciate what's happened along the way, you're throwing your life away. You're you're trading off the actual life that you have, the life you're living every fucking day, the limited amount of life. You're throwing all that away to be sad and mad. And ashamed that you're not the goal that that you're not out of that tunnel that you were supposed to be in and you never will be.

And everyone's disappointed now. And I I don't know. I I think people are hard on themselves and that makes them hard on others. And S uh sometimes the heart on themselves was never that useful and the heart on others is even less useful. Don't be a bully. I mean the episode could just end right there. I was I was trying really No, I think it's really good. And I was sh I was trying to really hard to get you No, eventually I I was to get you worked out. Getting you the full thoughts. No, no, no, no. Because I I uh because I th I think a lot of uh people are arriving and realizing um in not so great w mmm it being a bully can make you extremely relevant and just building a different kind of tunnel will uh make you extremely relevant and it's just it's just a slightly different tunnel.

It's like be be good in this but like think about how often also our bullying comes out and that bully I'm not talking about j just like, you know, acting acting like we should get to the challenge, acting like Randy. Hey Pee-wee. Uh-huh, here's your ice cream soup. No, don't you're not just acting like Randy on Pee-Wee's Playhouse, that kind of bully. There's the other kinds of bullies too, like the kinds that we will never be able to name on this show. Coup couple of the worst bullies I've ever met in my life might really surprise some of you, given our POV here. Terrible bullies. Just abusive Awful worst case scenario, you should know better bullies that we know would surprise a lot of people given their place in certain communities.

And you know people like that, right? But If you feel like you're entitled to be the way that you are, if you feel like, you know, maybe your dad's beating the shit out of you, or like, you know, making you wear dirty underwear to school or whatever, I don't but like you have your reasons for being how you are. And a lot of times, one of the things the it's not very fun to admit What one thing that bullies exploit is the thing they hate most in themselves, which is weakness. Which is, or vis-à-vis, lack of success maybe. Hey, you're poor. You live in a worse trailer than me. So I'm gonna I'm gonna wait by your locker and like hit you every day. Because I can, you're weaker than me, and that's what a bully does.

And it's one of those things where like we're pretty broad in our sympathy that we have for how we got to where we are and we can in the wrong circumstances be much less tolerant of how people got to how they are, even as we use phrases that do have a meaning like lived experience. Like we we we're not really learning from that. We're we're continuing to act like other people just dwell in some kind of satanic, you know, sex den where all they do is go out and do bad things to nice people like us. And um just be careful guys. Um should we s should should I try to say something encouraging? Would that help? I think that is encouraging. Those are kind of negative? Uh no because I is People feel lonely when they feel bullied and don't understand why.

Because when you when you agree with someone's world view, but they are like just slap slapping emotionally slapping you, but saying things that you agree with, like murder is bad. It's d It's become increasingly difficult to say please stop hitting me, like just because then you're not cool and you are are not in their cool woke tunnel or in their cool Zionist tunnel or whatever. Well and but you're also boy you really nailed it there. It's also that ability to pick who's in the in-group and the outgroup and decide who is You know counterrevolutionary or, you know, oh who you're disappointed in. Oh I'm so disappointed in you. Yeah. Well I I'm gonna reverse woke a again and because woke, reverse chicken problem again.

Because I Uh there was no way for me to live i in a way that would not disappoint many people that I always just d deeply wanted to make happy and there were goals that were expensive. And they never and they probably never asked themselves what the consequences of that were to a young person. Right, let's not say it but you know what I mean. Like do you do you realize the the options that I have in life, you just you've kind of just taken away the big one, which is living? Mm-hmm. Well, the uh the dark thing that I don't say on on this show is my biggest goal is just not kill myself. It's a really tough one. And that is j that's like the ultimate I like scaffolding of anger, but I am writing down the ultimate project.

That's pretty good Because it's show me the line. It's it's just Actually I have a higher priority this month. I want to close some bugs on my uh Swift React Yeah, I'm trying not to kill myself. Oh yeah, yours is better. It's a thing. Well that that's why it is a dark thing to say, and maybe because I Say it is that that is why people um online b end up privately being like somebody said it's still m uh instead of just going making a noise like mm-hmm you're uh Thank me Yask Yas suicide. What if I could trigger you in a positive way? Um Challenge this week is to watch an HBO two-part series called Pee-Wee As Himself. that is uh about the actor Paul Rubens. My question to you is this. We just talked a lot.

Oh, I love when little kids go by. They hold it. Oh I th I was wondering I'm like just a little bit. No, they wear like high visibility. They're like from the local preschool. And they they they walk in on that so cute. It's like Madeline, you know, walking in Rose. Like um little kids have like high viz like little vests on. It's so cute. Um those two. They have and they hold on to a little a rope. I love the crossing of the street. So can I suggest we pick an angle? Um Like the one that we've just been talking about, I think. Okay. That seems to Oh did you have a different- No, I don't know what that means. Um, because Paul Rubin had a lot of goals that he had to set he was very d Oh that I see what you're saying.

He was very d uh ambitious, right? Mm-hmm. He's that was the word that kept coming up. Okay, so just just to just to sorry, just to finish that thread then. So just can we forget about like we're not gonna do a recap. We're just gonna talk about it, right? We're just gonna talk about our feelings about it. We don't have to do a recap, no spoiler shit. We're not gonna worry about any of that, right? Oh yeah. That's why that's one of the reasons he broke up with his handsome boyfriend. And then that ambition becomes like, uh I gotta get in the closet if I wanna be interviewed as Pee Wee Herman. Holy fucking shit, this show. The whole like I was never in the closet. Hey everybody watch this, it's good.

Right, Alex? Yes, it's it's really good. Even if like me had like no experience with Pee Wee Herman or if like me, I still feel like Ben Wyatt, where I don't I understand why everything in the Pee-Wee Herman universe is funny. I under I don't get why I'm like haha I'm like I don't get it. Why is this Funny. I don't I don't find it amusing. I don't know. Great job. So even if you're like Alex and No, but the the the but more you put this I think better last time, which was hey, you know what? You were born in 1990. Uh, when the show was in it's probably second-third season. So you were brought into this world at a time where your all almost whole context for what is called Pee-Wee Herman. Is the perverted guy who got caught chorking it in a an adult theater?

Yes? Mm-hmm. That's most of your context for who Pee-wee Herman is. But even by the time I was in high school, the con uh like it had shifted to Pee-Wee Herman was the guy who was essentially framed, yeah, railroaded because uh uh the uh district attorney wanted I didn't know that part. Boy that made me mad. Woo Yeah, yeah, that was actually most of the context that that I because b 90 is when uh there was th that and then there was the like a child porn case. Oh my god, the child Can you please pictures of his assistance kid Dad break your heart. And he's so adamant about not wanting to seem needy about it. That's why that vulture article, if you do like this and enjoy it, that vulture article I think is a really good um companion piece to this.

And if you've ever interviewed someone for the documentary, it's also a great a very cathartic watch. What does he keep saying to him? Hey, come back, come join me, come join me, Paul. Come come back to me. Come come back. Or did I? Or did I do that? I liked one of your movies. Or don't I? I know. No, I don't. Yes I do. Anybody else I would find that incredibly annoying. But then also I loved his whole bit about stealing focus. He's like, nobody can steal focus like me. Like I can walk on stage and steal focus from anybody. But he does it by playing low rather than big. You know? I thought, man, and but like it all comes together. I don't know much to say about it. I love I loved how these elements came together.

I love that they got that the guy got the opportunity to do this. I like how it turned out. I love what I learned. the ending at by the end of the second episode I was I was pretty emotional by the time he's reading or you're listening to that message. I that made me and thinking about the deer, feeding the deer and everything. Um it was very emotional to me. But also then Again, and it doesn't matter if you know who Pee-We is, it helps, but like his like crazy collection and archive of all that stuff. All that stuff he's got in those like warehouse rooms. But then That also helps you understand, knowing what you know now, don't you kind of rethink the whole like, yeah, he got caught with a bunch of child porn.

And you're like, well no. First of all, it was mostly muscle men magazines, and second of all, the child picture was like his foster child. Or his like you know what I mean? It was not anywhere near what they were presenting. That this guy is like a a dangerous predator who like keeps, you know, uh a scrapbook of his victims or something. And it's like, oh dude, no. he just likes circus stuff and likes this his assistant's child. You know, it's just oh man. You could tell he doted over her, like loved that little kid. It was so sweet. I mean, the kid got to have Pee-Wee Herman in her life. And he had such a beautiful n I I don't even like not even like chosen family, just like but a this family that ended up just kind of being projected on to him and it was a circumstantial f family that I mean eventually was uh chosen.

What whatever. It's that sounds like a Doctor Who episode, the circumstantial family. The circumstantial family of blood of the Daleks. documentary, uh not because I just don't find the character of Pee Wee Herman funny, but was because I had known that he was just d sacrificed to the gods of the California justice. system and I'm like, oh, I don't want to watch a whole documentary about a gay guy being smeared because it's n Yeah, and it is not all that. It is very emotional, but it is not a like a I love the balance though, and I wanna just really stipulate. I don't think he's a great guy. In the usual sense. Well, okay, but like ask Phil Hartman about that or whomever. Like he was pretty stingy with sharing a lot of the glory and the money with people.

And I believe that's to be true. I think he was very involved and the fact that he thinks of it all as his own performance. But you know, all those other people did contribute quite a lot. I don't think he's perfect. But boy, what a balanced portrait of like the end of that. And then to find out, even the filmmaker didn't know he'd had cancer for six years. Fucking insane. I I I really love the Pee-wee that you come away with. He seems like a real person. He's not perfect, but he seems like a very real person. This is I I mean I know more of Paul Rubens than Pee-Wee Norman, essentially, which is why I I s like I I don't know. There there are probably people my age who would go into what uh similar to me, like queer people who just knew him as the guy with uh well actually I think even um until this I had just assumed or the narrative was like gay porn but it was still like who car like okay he had gay porn whatever but even it was like no no no even that it wasn't even it was No, no, it wasn't even that.

It wasn't that. Yeah, it was the cops lie. Like it wasn't just a lot of people. Hey, hey remember that thing Merlin said that the roles are just stop talking to cops. People should stop talking to cops, but reporters should stop listening to cops. They don't know what the fuck they're talking about. I don't know if you know that there are some protests going on, but but Chicago reporters are framing Chicago as like See, look at it can be a peaceful protest. It's like no, we didn't talk to we're not ca not I mean not that I was anyway. Uh Herman. Don't listen to them. There's people that say press who helped organize it like hello. Oh no, you're right. It's not no they're they're culpable too.

But uh he and this is by my count, I bet there's more. I think this is at least our second media challenge where a beloved closeted icon comes out. Because we also had six by Sondheim. We did that on here, right? Oh did he remember we first talked about his boyfriend? Uh this it well then this is the second documentary where I'm like wait the I thought. I'm pretty sure in the Max era we watched Six by Solanheim is a really We did watch it. And it basically the notion is we're gonna take six songs from shows and use that as a frame for talking about his career. And it includes some really fun performances and a lot of good, you know, archival footage. But yeah. Yeah. Well like boy his boyfriend was cute, huh?

That guy was a snapper. Oh my god. He seems so charming. Gorgeous black guy in the 70s. Chair an apartment, have a cat. Yeah, yeah, and like being like, hey uh Paul, are you gonna like uh do your job or play house? Like oh fucking good I mean, it was awkward necessarily But I liked it when they were showing interviews from that weird in-between period where, you know. You could tell he's so awkward about being interviewed as Paul Rubens, but especially when he's in character. And it's so awkward to watch somebody try to interview him as Paul Rubens. you know, sitting on the couch there when he's dressed as Pee Wee Herman. And you could tell like he had to really find his own sort of level for dealing with that.

And finally it was just like there is no Paul Rubens anymore. That's the only way that this becomes tenable is like to just have this Pee Wee character. And uh the c like uh the unknown consequences, not just b both personally and like oh okay, the my mugshot is me looking like a I'm leading the Manson family and I I I don't know, it's it's also Like the the way um it had a again sort of been framed to me was like he was a a tragic gay figure. Whereas it's It really i i he wasn't one of those classic like Paul Paul Lind or, you know, one of the people who's taken their own life, but like Paul Lind, man, I was a bummer. That guy was super closeted. And one night, you know the story about that, the center square from Hollywood Squares?

One night at the St. Francis here in town, his lover, uh boyfriend, fell out of a window and died. Oh god. Well like Fatty Arbuckle, that's the classic example. Like you can't say Fatty Arbuckle without people thinking of that scandal which was non-existent. I have no idea what you're talking about. Roscoe Arbuckle. But there's there's a lot of cases like that, but there's certainly so many, you know, cases of especially like gay men like that. But I'm sorry I interrupted you, I apologize. Well no, but he he sort of wasn't that case. Like he made the tragic voice. Uh well I mean it w i it it i but he wasn't until he what like he was like, Yeah, no, I am uh I'm not going to do that and I am and it wasn't so much the like I can't be out if for at first it was like I'm there is no it's not just yeah it's not that there's no ex yeah, yeah.

And then uh being Paul and then having suddenly like, oh fuck, who is Paul? And watching that snowball was more interesting than, oh, what happened with the scandal, which But also made the whole like he wouldn't sit down for the final interview about being arrested even more interesting. Because I was like, wait, what else do you want? To know or what else is that? I think that's because he's fighting himself. He doesn't want to look sweaty. He doesn't want to look like one of those people in a documentary explaining themselves. I think that's what he really he struggles with that. Having the dignity to not have to explain this bullshit and it's just it's embarrassing. It's fucking embarrassing as hell.

I d I just was really s uh struck that like there would be uh he did actually say like I um it i in the uh recording that he sent to the filmmaker right before he died. He said like I just wanted to explain myself And uh oh, that's all I wrote down. But the part was good. But he put it it was yeah. And you could uh you can hear him and like, uh Uh it's a good movie. It's really good. Check it out. It's well worth your time and um and don't be like Randy. Yeah. Still didn't work. Did you see Natasha Leone, little Natasha Leone? Oh my god. Can you believe little hippie Natasha Leone on that show? How cute is she I think everything else about like Cherry and Oh my god Cherry. Oh my god and and Charlie's mom and Charlie's mom as Miss Yvonne Yeah.

Missy Vaughn, I hate to stare, but you have got the biggest hair. I still remember. Hi, my name is Penny. I still remember So much about Pee-Wee's Playhouse. Oh my god. Mecca Leka High, Mecca High Ni Ho. I still remember so much about that show. Ugh, I loved it. Cowboy Curtis. He was in Apocalypse now. Good figure. Was that uh that that was Lawrence Finch Finchburn there Larry? You call him Larry. I call him Larry Finchbun. He doesn't know why. He'll find out. I bully you, Larry Fitchbun. Don't get off the boat. Never get off the boat. raw transcript