302. How Great is Spaghetti?

AlexThis is Do By Friday, a weekly challenge podcast with Alex Cox and Merlin Mann. This week's challenge. Watch more Fosse Verdon.

Good afternoon. Hello. Good. Oh, you're right. It is afternoon where you are as well.

MerlinWell, not yet.

AlexStill not doing math right. I'm trying to live on West Coast time. It's been whatever.

MerlinWhy do you keep saying that?

AlexBecause everybody.

MerlinIs there a thing you want to tell us about that you're working on? Because you keep making a point of saying you're living on West Coast time because of people you're working. Yeah. What is your hustle that we need to know about?

AlexOh, my hustle. Goodness gracious. No. I mean, just talking to and interviewing people, typically in California.

MerlinYou're talking about doing your independent podcast stuff.

AlexNo, it's not a podcast. It's a radio show. Let's not talk about that. I want to know about your...

MerlinDoing a radio show.

AlexEssays with music beds. I would like to know your velocity, viscosity. I like to... You know what? I need to combine them.

MerlinOkay.

AlexViscosity.

MerlinWhat do you need to know?

AlexWhat's your viscosity this morning?

MerlinI'm very slick.

AlexOh, good.

MerlinI think isn't viscosity a measure of how slippery something is?

AlexIt's the, you know what? I don't know how to describe it other than the, like, thickness. Like imagine slime Instagram.

MerlinOh, my thickness. Disappointing.

I'm fine. I'm here. Get used to it. I'm bummed that I got cockblocked on this challenge. I'm bummed.

Alexall right all right all right uh this is due by friday and apparently also this does also bring up an issue that we do need to discuss on the show oh oh am i in trouble what's what is this maybe yeah oh all right well it's your show no it's not no whenever um whenever someone has their own show. It's not a podcast. It's their show. In the way that you define... I don't define podcasts

this way. I think it's a very...

MerlinLike a radio show, where you just talk for four hours.

AlexI used to do that. Oh!

MerlinNo, I did. That's how I started the podcast on the folder site. It was just me talking. Because I didn't want to talk to anybody else.

AlexNo, but that was very good. As was most days. No, no, no, no. Hold up, hold up. But the way that we discussed last week, you were like a podcast. This is exactly what you said for sure. Definitely.

MerlinI want to hear it. Quote me what I say.

AlexNo, no. A podcast is just and only can be through white guys.

MerlinRight.

AlexNo, no, no, no.

MerlinI'm not saying blacks can't do it, but they have to call it something else. Girlfriend? Fam?

AlexFam. Yes, fam. What is the issue on this program? What did I do?

MerlinYou got caught? Well, no, no, no. I mean, I want to talk about our relationship, but it's really just a way into talking about how your brain works.

AlexOh, boy.

MerlinWhat's your viscosity? Are you feeling thick?

AlexI don't know.

MerlinAre you runny?

AlexI mean, yeah, my sinuses sure are.

MerlinYou're the one who brought up the tensile strength of oil. I only know it from Pennzoil commercials as a youth, and they would talk about the high viscosity. And viscosity, I just – I'm using context clues here. I don't think I've ever actually looked it up. But as far as my velocity, I'm pretty good. My body is in revolt. I'm bummed about the challenge. but that is this a good opportunity for for me to to talk not about the challenge but about the

Alexnot challenge well if if we go to the site of record dubai friday.com the challenge this week's challenge watch more of falsie verdon okay all right um okay okay i need more tea

Merlinokay so here's the thing this is not the challenge unless it becomes the challenge but the challenge from last week was hey let's watch this TV show Marlon likes called Fosse Verdon on Hulu and you know and then I think blah blah blah something happened and you got the idea that you wanted to watch more of the Fosse Verdon show and then I was also saying well if you want to watch all that jazz you can kind of interleave those It's not a very Syracusan approach.

AlexWhy? What would his approach be?

MerlinI don't know because he's inscrutable and doesn't like things.

AlexHe also doesn't like musicals. Or rather, he doesn't like watching them.

MerlinHe gave Predestination two and a half stars. That's a signal flare. That tells you a lot about that little fellow.

AlexOh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The flag's all red.

MerlinOkay. So the idea was that we were going to maybe watch – so Fosse Verdon. We're still going to talk about Fosse Verdon, right?

AlexOh, absolutely. And I doubt that anyone has ever listened to an entire episode of this show. But typically when we do a TV challenge, it's the first episode of a series. And usually I end up watching the whole series because you are very good at giving me TV homework when I do my TV homework.

MerlinOh, man. You're so behind on all your TV homework.

AlexIt's true. I am indeed behind.

MerlinAll right, so here's what happened. What happened was the movie All That Jazz, which is directed by Bob Fosse from 1979, is honestly, I feel like it's I don't I can't get ranking these things. But it's it's such an unusual movie. And I consider it one of my favorite movies.

AlexAnd I did not know that until last or the past few weeks. I don't think you've ever talked about this movie in public, which I find interesting.

MerlinYou know, in my head, I'll tell you a funny thing. I associate all that jazz in some ways with The Big Lebowski and Law and Order.

AlexPlease go on. Please go on.

MerlinBecause these are from that period of my life and career where I was making webpages, like for work, you know. You know, a designer production guy. But, you know, you give me the stuff, I make the webpages. And I would do it a lot. I'd do it late at night. Late at night, of course, I'd watch every, like, I think four hours on A&E. They used to have Law & Order. And I'd watch Law & Order until the middle of the night. And when the 3 a.m. episode was done, I'd go to bed, get up the next day, watch the 11 o'clock episode, and keep working on web pages.

AlexOh, my God. This is so funny. Oh, sorry. No, go.

MerlinIs it?

AlexNot funny. Like, ha-ha, funny. No, I just had a similar routine. But I am interrupting because I've got a lot of losses.

MerlinWell, I think it's like, as with music, music is a much bigger example of where I imprint on certain songs from a certain time. But anyhow, the point being, and then there were movies that I had cable, so I would just watch what was on. That's how I discovered The Big Lebowski, if memory serves. It was on like TBS or something, which doesn't seem possible in the chronology. But I have such a clear recollection of being at the last house I lived in in Tallahassee, working on my blue G3 and seeing that. But also that was probably around the time I first saw All That Jazz.

was sometime in the mid to late 90s. And I don't know anything about Bob Fosse, but I just thought the movie is obviously very influenced by things like 8 1⁄2, especially. But I love stuff like that. I'm a dude. I like watching dudes fall apart. It's amazing to me. And the thing I was going to say to Machi when Machi texted yesterday was that, you know, The thing is, like, all of us guys who are, like, serial assholes, we like to believe that there can be some great artistic act that maybe doesn't excuse us, but at least explains us.

And I get that. I see that.

AlexOh, yeah. Bob Fosse isn't an excuse. He's just a reason.

MerlinHe's a reason. Yes. So anyhow, I had bought, and this is not interesting, but there's a podcast I like a lot called Blank Check, where they do series on directors that were given a blank check. Sometimes that check cashes and sometimes it bounces baby. And they were doing the films of Mr. Babs Fussy. And I thought, hey, you know, I've got a copy of all that jazz here, but I'm going to go ahead and I'm going to – because they kept talking about all the tracks and stuff that were on the Blu-ray,

which is a Criterion Blu-ray. Criterion, they do them some real nice Blu-rays. I've got a few of their movies. I've got a color. What is it? A pomegranates movie? What's it called? Color of Pomegranates? Scent of Pomegranates?

AlexBlue is the warmest color? I don't know.

MerlinNope, nope, nope, nope. Look up Criterion Pomegranates. Yeah. Ruby Fruit. Google Saudi Falcons. But yeah, no. And so I got that Criterion thing, and I took a photo of it. And you know, Griffin Newman, he gave me a pity fave. It made me happy. Aw. and I love a pity faith my wife gives me a couple of weeks

Alexnot your wife I would be honored but my spouse gives me some

Merlinwell I'll go into the other room and I'll say thanks for the pity faith but

Alexshe's lucky I just text matching and say thank you

MerlinI make the journey on foot the mecca that is my wife but I I got that. Okay. Here's the, let's get to the crux of this. How are you doing? You good?

AlexI am. We can circle back to that.

MerlinSo what had happened was then, so it's funny because yesterday I thought, you know, I haven't actually like finished watching the whole, all that jazz in a while. And I already felt covered by the challenge because I'd watched all of the TV show and I've seen all that jazz, you know, several times. But it's funny because yesterday, once we're short, picked up a prescription, got home early because I'm going to sit my ass down and watch the the rest of all that jazz. And I received a photograph via text message from you at 2.20, my time yesterday.

And can I share with people, apart from the fact that I can see your legs, you sent me- No, you can't. You sent me-

AlexI specifically made sure, you know what? I'm going to put this in notes because I was like-

MerlinYou're wearing shorts with a cuff.

AlexNo, I was like, I can't. And I'm like, I can't put my feet in this picture.

MerlinThat's not for me. That's for Patreon. God damn it. Proceed. So you sent me this photo of the self-same Criterion Edition of the Blu-ray that I got. And I was like, and you said, so you said that. And then if I, can I quote you here what you said?

AlexYes, please.

MerlinOkay. Now, this is where it gets good. Because you said, all caps, it is time.

AlexYes.

MerlinOkay. and then begins a series of responses from me. My first response is, oh, shit, it's showtime, folks. And then a few minutes later, I did not say to you, as it happens, I'm watching all that jazz right now, but I just started typing things to you as though we were watching it together. And I said, George Benson is a very good guitar player. And then I said, God, I love this weird movie. And then I said, Anne Reinking is crazy hot. and then I thought you know what I don't need to keep doing this

I'm being that particular dad

Alexno I loved it I was like this is a Merlin stream of consciousness about the movie

Merlinyou know what it means though

Alexwell I looked I'm like wait George Benson because I was like wait are you talking versus

Merlina song that I had the great honor to play in stage band

Alexoh that's adorable

MerlinI play it on Broadway. I can't see. I play Git Fiddle in the band. It's really just two bar chords. It's not hard. And then it changes key. But it's pretty straight. No, our part, ironically enough, like the guitar part, if you're not playing the lead, the guitar part of that song is really easy.

AlexShh. Well, that's the part I play. Shh.

MerlinI'm the George Benson. You ever heard George Benson? He sings along with himself while he's soloing.

AlexHmm.

MerlinWhich sounds annoying, but it's really cool.

AlexIt's –

MerlinAnd when you finally get to see all that jazz, well, wait a minute. Hang on. Hang on. Obviously, you've seen all that jazz because you got the criterion. Let's stop. Shut your whore mouth. And you said, it is time. I said, Anne Reinking is crazy hot, which she is.

AlexAgreed.

MerlinAnd then what happened was in a different channel and then Matchy was texting me and talking about how sad the thing was. And we were talking. And this continued for a while. and then bring me up to speed on what happened this morning. Where were we? This is with you, me, and Matchy.

AlexOh, gosh. There's so many stupid threads on my – I mess it. Do better.

MerlinAnd so – And Matchy said he's terrible, brilliant, and terrible. I said men are weird. Yes. And then you said this morning at 941 a.m. Pacific time, you said makes me really want some of those Dexys, which, of course, you know – That was a joke.

AlexThat was a joke.

Merlinthe Vivaldi at the beginning. Showtime folks, right? And he has some dextrin. You can see his address on there. He should really cover that up. He's going to post it. And then you said, it's got a filter, which I think is a reference to something Bob Fosse says about his camel cigarettes, right?

AlexYes, yes.

MerlinAnd then I quoted the nurse who Bob Fawlty is, Bob Fawlty from Fosse Towers. Okay. All right. Let's do another take on that one.

And so then I said, oh, Mr. Gideon, which is the thing that this poor nurse says, as to use our modern parlance, the patient Bob Fosse keeps assaulting her, like grabbing her ass and wanting basically some some hand assistance. it appears like, and he talks about his erection. He's laying in bed. Spoiler alert, he's had a heart attack. And I said, oh, Mr. Gideon. And then I said, how great is Roy Scheider, though? And then tell me what you said.

AlexWhere did, which one is this? Which one is this?

MerlinThis morning at 1153 your time.

AlexWe didn't watch it. I couldn't get our PlayStation controller to charge. So Peter'd on that, see, peanut buttered on that bit. But who wouldn't wrestle his dazzle? because Roy Scheider is very attractive. But what had happened was, that's a bit that you said, yes.

MerlinSo the whole thing I'm leading up to here, Alex, is why did you not at any point say to me, I don't know what you're talking about because I couldn't watch all that jazz. Why did you never alert me to the fact that you had no fucking idea what I was talking about? This is John Mulaney all over again. It's I think you should leave all. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's not a criticism.

And what was the other one? There's another one. You do this all the time, though. Is your thinking so disordered that you're not sure if you should know the reference? Or is my thinking disordered that I think you should know the reference?

AlexA little column A, a little column B. But I think the answer to most of this is just having do not disturb and not going to my phone.

MerlinI'm getting used to that. I'm not allowed to disturb anybody anymore I get the hint guys I get the hint if I texted both of you in my family and I can't hear a buzz I get it

Alexoh my god that's always a good feeling you text the people in the room and there's no buzz or no ding

Merlinagain this also goes for the family in a different but all too similar way, which is I'll have sent something, and then a second later I'll say something like,

Alexhow great is spaghetti?

MerlinAnd they go, what?

AlexAnd I go, spaghetti. And they're like, what are you talking?

MerlinI said, it's the dog, a photo of a dog I just sent to both of you. His name is Spaghetti, and he's a precious angel. Didn't hear any buzz, didn't hear any bloop. Oh, I hear bloops. I hear bloops when the friends text. Actually, my kid is pretty much full on everybody's music.

AlexSame. It's healthy.

MerlinThis is partly a way to open up a conversation about your mind, but it's also my way of saying, I apologize because, well, apologize, is that the right word? Well, I feel bad because I hope you know you can say to me, Merlin, I don't know what you're talking about.

AlexI believe I did.

MerlinShut up, Leonard. Nobody even knows what you're talking about. Shut up, Leonard. I talked to your son on Visitor's Day. We know about your gambling problem. Shut up, Leonard.

AlexReferencing knowledge.

MerlinI love when Leonard's playing the bass. Anyway, shut up, Leonard. So you take it any way you want, but my thought was, you know, so you are steeped. And listen, there's a lot of overflow.

AlexThat's right. Obviously. Right. Exactly.

MerlinAnd they do a real good job. We'll talk about this once we talk about the challenge. I don't want to talk about the challenge now. But the way that the last, I think, two, three episodes do a real nice job of like, I mean, the guy who's obviously supposed to be Ben Vereen.

AlexYeah.

MerlinOh, you wouldn't know. You wouldn't know. Sorry. The scene where there's an African-American guy. Yeah.

AlexYes. Because I was like, as I was watching Fosse Verdon, I was like, wait, is that the person from all that? That's a person from Chicago, right? So I'm like, I'm on IMDb.

MerlinA great entertainer, a great humanitarian, and my dearest, dearest friend for 25 years. That's a line from all that jazz. Ben Vereen's great in this.

AlexWait, I don't know who that is.

MerlinBen Vereen is an actor. He's done lots of things. I would at this point encourage Quinn to say something, but I guess her ass is already halfway out the door.

Ben Vereen is a very good dancer.

Tommy Toon is very tall. Anyway, I'm sorry. I hope you feel, and here's the pivot, and this is where it gets personal. As we talked about, we being me, and talked about being written. In the wisdom document, I see a lot of things in life as different from other people, right? I think when somebody tells you something that's a vulnerability, that's not your opportunity to jump on them and say, I told you. So I think every opportunity can be a small learning opportunity and often can be a surprisingly large learning opportunity.

And I hope, like the vulnerable people in my life or Bob Fosse, which we'll talk about, I hope we love each other enough that you can say to me, Merlin, I don't know what you're talking about.

AlexI'm actually trying to find in my texts. Many times I think I've said, wait, what's happening? Because that's often, it's not even like.

MerlinBecause I like, I mean, as bombastic or dramatic or whatever or fucking annoying as I am. I mean, this is very much a straight up approach to Twitter for me. And in some ways it's an approach to life for me. which is if you don't know what this is about, it probably wasn't for you. If I'm addressing a unknown audience of unknown size or interest, like I'm not doing something to make you feel bad.

Like I'm not, I'm not promoting that. Everybody go watch this very good making of the Godfather, a TV show that I'm obsessed with right now. But like, I'm going to reference it for people who know what it is. If you don't know what it is, of course you could say, what is this? what is this TV thing? What is this movie thing? But, you know, I think you could probably figure that out if you really wanted to. But anyway, the point is, like, I'm speaking to a nano audience in almost everything that I do. And once you get to know me, I hope you realize that that's a way

that I bond with people is I made a thing that's literally just for you. No one else is supposed to get this joke except for you. And a lot of jokes, a lot of my little jokes, what do you call But a lot of my hat on a hat on a hat shit is only supposed to be funny for less than one person.

It's an affront. It's not funny.

AlexIt's not even a joke.

MerlinIt's not even a joke. Got me on mute. Piece of shit, kid. I'm a drama club. Shut up. Shut up, Leonard. But sometimes then I'll say something to you. And so what I'm saying is, like the narrow casting, forgive my calling you narrow, but the narrow casting of me talking to my friend Alex, there's a fair amount of that. Now, the thing is, when you do that to me, I am frequently extremely confused. Because first of all, I have to suss out, was this meant for someone else? Probably matching. Which is a thing we all three do.

AlexYep.

MerlinOh, yes. Too many M names.

AlexToo many M names.

MerlinOh, my wife even has a phrase for it now. Wrong window, dude.

AlexI like that. The wrong window.

MerlinI'm sorry. I'm so sorry to be delayed. I'm doing a process that I can't stop until it's done. Wrong window, dude. And I say, you're not Roderick.

And basically the only people I ever do that, well, not only people, but the people I do that with the most are my wife in Syracuse, both of whom are very happy to tell me it's the wrong window.

AlexI can imagine. That seems like a pastime Syracuse must have when people text him accidentally.

MerlinYeah, he gives this error two and a half stars. Watched it again, two and a half stars. So, you know, I hope we're close enough that you'll appreciate the fact that I make an extremely obscure joke that's difficult to understand. Or a reference, I don't know what to call it, a joke. A reference, but then if it's really something you absolutely don't know what I'm talking about, or arguably worse, you do know what I'm talking about but don't know what I mean, that's – I feel bad.

AlexYou are overthinking this.

MerlinYou're overthinking this but you go beep, boop, beep, boop. This must be about Bob Fosse movie and like – ha, ha, ha, ha. Like almost like I'm – I've had some kind of an aphasia and you know that words are coming out but they're not really words attached to anything.

Alexwell as as you were text i'm looking at the time uh stamp oh yeah i start the movie you can grab

Merlinthe window and uh and move it to the right i'll show you the time stamps for us tried to start

Alexthis movie at 4 40 uh could not find my playstation controller because god that's so frustrating that's the only blu-ray player uh we we have and then i tried charging it and then i noticed oh Merlin is texting about George Benson. I bet that's someone in the movie.

MerlinGeorge Benson is a very good guitar player. Yeah. And then, God, I love this weird movie.

AlexAnne Ranking is crazy hot.

MerlinAgree. Anne Ranking is crazy hot.

AlexYes. And so I, at that point, am just trying to make my stupid PlayStation work. Still doesn't.

MerlinI'm so sorry. No, it's okay. Well, as you youths like to say, you just told on yourself. So you're not playing a lot of video games, video games on the PS whatever right now. You got a dead controller. Just check the cable. It might be the cable.

AlexWell, yeah, it's fucking micro USB. But no, I don't play any games on the PlayStation 4, really. And I'm waiting for the PlayStation 5 to have the...

MerlinWe ordered a game that comes this week, and I'm going to play it. What? It comes out on Friday. What? There's a game we pre-ordered. It comes out soon. I think it's a game you like. Hold on.

AlexHold on.

MerlinIs it called Splatoon?

AlexOh, Splatoon.

MerlinYeah, Splatoon.

AlexOh, I thought it had come out already because the, I guess not.

MerlinOh, I don't know. I might have gotten hacked.

AlexOh, oh.

MerlinBut you talked about that game. And I said, hey, you know what? I said to my kid, I said, the kid says, will you get this? And I said, of course we'll get this. I've heard this game is good. Alex likes this game and thinks I would like it. I think actually specifically you said to me, if you're going to play a video game with your kid, why don't you play Splatoon?

AlexYeah, because Splatoon.

MerlinBecause years ago. Splatoon 2. Right.

AlexAnd you had said how you want to play games with your kid.

MerlinYeah, and I'm still stuck on a ledge in Edith Finch, but I'm not done yet. I figured out how to shoot my jizz wire as Peter Parker, but I can't get very far. Shoop, shoop. And of course, as we all know, whenever I play Zelda, my horse just gallops in a circle.

AlexIt's under, the galloping in a circle is underrated. It's a very pretty game and the horses are very, very pretty.

MerlinI still haven't figured out how to climb up to the Colossus. I'm working on that too.

AlexIt's really hard. Shadow of the Colossus is really, really hard.

MerlinI'm in that like, you know, easy enough to figure out. Where would Merlin be after playing a video game for eight minutes? Well, Merlin's stuck near this cliff and trying to climb it and jump in and throwing beans and shit and I don't know what to do. But we're getting this. Now, I said this, and the kid said, well, thank you for getting it. I said, absolutely. And I said, you know, I wouldn't mind playing that with you. And then the kid in a very, like, calm voice explained, well, and you'll know the name for this, but we'll play a something-something game. And that way other people, like, out there won't have to see you play.

There's some kind of way you can play that's just, like, between you and somebody else and, like, you're not playing publicly. And basically the kid said, thank you for getting this game. We'll play this somewhere that you won't embarrass both of us. I'd probably be shooting my paint in a circle, if you know what I mean.

AlexLast person asks to eat the biscuit with the paint.

MerlinThe local... Paint biscuit, they call it.

AlexYeah, the local area.

MerlinNew metal.

AlexThat's...

MerlinGross. I've also heard it called soggy biscuit. it i've heard it called different things now do you think that's do you think that's uh the oh wait i'm we should finish this i also want to talk about that's well and i also want to talk about rainbow fentanyl yes so before we get to that though because as soon as i heard this morning i heard about rainbow the second i heard second i heard rainbow fentanyl i'm like okay i'm i have to admit i'm i'm already a little bit about any any teen um

Alexpanic story yes that has rainbow in the name yes we come back to that oh yes please

Merlinum video games embarrassing so i'm i i when you can tell me if you don't know what i'm talking about or maybe i should just stop texting should i stop texting everybody am i just terrible at this no no what i use periods it makes people uncomfortable when i use periods no the only

Alextime i think i would be uncomfortable from a uh getting a text from you is if it said k with a period just the letter k with a period but if anybody sent me there's a funny vine about that oh yeah oh can you imagine if that was still around oh you know i should share with you i

Merlinmade a playlist i made a playlist that's nothing but the three compilations of vines that we have watched dozens of times over the years as you know i got to vine late i only learned what vine was and why it's good right as it was going away. But it's got a lot of what I believe to be the hits in it.

AlexOh, yes.

MerlinYou know what I'm saying? It's got Smooth Criminal. It's got Yas Kat. It's got the guy walking off the roof with a beer and grabbing the branch of the tree and it lands him on the ground. It's got that. It's got Blades are for skating.

AlexI don't know that one. See? Blades are for skating. Nope, no idea.

MerlinIt's kind of snowy.

AlexIs this public?

MerlinOh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me get my playlist for you. this is going to be a special this is going to be a very special feature which is alex and merlin are going to watch um i don't know 45 minutes of six second videos

Alexthat's what oh god there were a lot of vine film festivals i'm surprised that you missed

Merlinthat phenomena too you know i i i'm not going to say i can't believe i didn't get into vines but But, I mean, again, it's like my exposure to poems, which is like good poems written by good people. Like there's fewer of those per capita than you'd think. Again, the only reason I say this is folk music and poems are two things where there's some of them I like more than almost anything in the world. But at the time I really got into folk music and poems, I didn't realize how many were not that good.

to where I'm like, I don't think I actually like, I wouldn't say I like folk music or poems as a thing. Right? And I feel like with Vines, whatever I got exposed to with Vines, I mean, you get the uncut shit with some of these compilations. And there's a lot, there's a lot of, there's compilations of just Griffin McElroy of Vines.

AlexOh, yes, Beepus, the all-time great Beepus, like, oh God, best, probably Balance and Peepus, two best macarolli bits ever done just peepis wait do you not know i feel like i know that it's

Merlina it's a is it somewhere between a p uh uh peepums and a penis what is it no no no it's just uh

Alexgosh i'll have to i will find it um the oh is it pip it i i think pipis yeah okay i was incorrect It is Pippis.

MerlinBut they're like, they're just so brilliant. Or the African-American guy whose bit is like screaming. Like the guy, you know, the guy with the glasses.

AlexYes, yes. Because people try to do him on Vine. Or sorry, on TikTok. And it's not as good.

MerlinOh, my goodness. That guy's good. All right. I'm going to find these and I'm going to send it to you. Hello, everyone. And welcome to Do By Friday. It's a weekly challenge podcast with Alex Cox and Merlin Mann. And we're going to talk more this week about Fosse Verdon. I really hope you liked it. We're going to talk about that. Oh, look at this. Oh, my favorite. I have so many good playlists. Oh, my God, Alex.

AlexHold on. Circle, circling. Circle, circle. Circle, circle. I don't know a better term for circle back. And it's just a terrible term.

MerlinThey said circle back. And I've become very sensitive to those kinds of acronyms. Exactly. And they said circle back in the Godfather making one. And I was like, you know, people in 1970.

AlexThey did not.

MerlinPeople did not say Circleback. People did not say Circleback in the 80s. They didn't really say it in the 90s. Circleback is a very 2000s thing to say.

AlexYeah, that's, hmm, hmm. I saw you tweet about that, actually.

MerlinTalked about Don Corleone's Finsta.

AlexOh, God.

MerlinDo you know who plays Don Corleone in this TV show, Alex?

AlexNo.

MerlinOkay, okay. So, this is a TV show on Paramount+, I guess. I have ways but um and it's called the offer and I kind of avoided it because I heard about it and I thought it sounded like very campy and I shouldn't have avoided it because it is very campy and it's really good and it's kind of just the story of like it's it's you know what it reminds me of an underrated thing on Netflix called a feudal and stupid gesture which is like the story of National Lampoon with Will Forte and Bill Weasley like it's one of those kinds of

things like it moves real fast and it's not supposed to be historically accurate um i recommend futile and stupid gesture because will forte is a genius um and he plays doug kenney uh the guy who says what do you want us to do you morons the guy who says that in um in uh animal house which i know is problematic but the thing i'm saying here is what was i talking about uh the the offer the uh the offer is a tv show about like start and it's got it's got all the people like the people involved in the production of this and the the cast is so goddamn fun

francis fort coppola is played by i didn't realize this till i was on the last episode he's played by that guy everybody loves in fantastic beasts the guy who gets the pretty girlfriend the guy who is a baker and that's his app is mine spoilers well again i can happily tell you never seen fantastic beasts and it's got who else has it got in it it's got um i'm building up to the big ones oh it's got Miles Teller from Whiplash with a very very deep voice and also Fantastic Four but we don't talk about that

he plays Albert Reddy who was the producing producer he wasn't the studio level producer but he produced the movies

Alexhe was the getter donner that's the official term

Merlinhe did what a producer did but he's the guy when you get a best picture Oscar it goes to I believe it goes to the producer and like whomever. So he's great.

Because I have been since the 90s, early 2000s, obsessed with Robert Evans, I have to say Matthew Goode plays Robert Evans and it's fucking incredible. So he was on Downtown Abbey. He plays Ozymandias in the Watchmen movie.

AlexOh, don't spoil. He is in a lot of British things.

MerlinOkay.

AlexDon't spoil that one.

MerlinHe's crazy handsome. He is. Beautiful blue eyes. Totes English. And he does, I've heard a lot of really good, I'll say, what's the difference? Impression versus impersonation? Like, you know, the way Patton Oswalt does Robert Evans is really funny. I filled the hot tub up with apple juice. If you've never eaten Ally McGraw's pussy, Taste of Apples, ESPN. Like, that's funny. Bob Odenkirk famously does a – he's another obsessive about Robert Evans.

He does a good Robert Evans. The Matthew Goode impression of Robert Evans is so good. So you're asking yourself, what's about The Godfather and the making of The Godfather? Like, all the behind-the-scenes stuff. Like, half of the movie is just about dealing with the mob, Cosa Nostra. And Giovanna Rubisi is very good as their contact guide. Do you want to know who plays Marlon Brando?

AlexPlease.

MerlinYou ready?

AlexYes.

MerlinKarev.

AlexWait, wait. No. No. Wait.

MerlinKarev. And he's pretty good.

AlexHmm.

MerlinBut go Google the offer Brando.

AlexI need to see what he looks like in this.

MerlinHe's really good. But again, impressions versus impersonations, right? Like there's like, I never remember which is which. It's like comedian and comic. I think impression is like Dana Carvey's George Bush.

Interesting. You know what I mean? Like where you're like highlighting, like George Bush didn't actually talk like that. But now we think he talked like that because of Dana Carvey.

AlexOh my God.

MerlinHe didn't actually always say, wouldn't be prudent.

AlexThat's weird.

MerlinDoesn't it look pretty good? He looks like 70s Brando.

AlexThis is very weird. Oh gosh. well this is a way for to get uh matchy to let me watch on the big TV great great actor here we go oh

Merlingod yep yep yep is he the punching guy he is he the punching guy yeah he's a big puncher he he defends the uh the cute girl I like uh the red hair girl I don't Christian

Alexgirl I mean there's a lot of punching there's a lot of uh girls with red hair he he punches for Meredith he punches for uh Joe who he punches for Izzy.

MerlinYeah, wasn't there the... Oh, Izzy. The offer Brando. And why was I telling you all that? Because I'm so steeped in that now. I'm very steeped in that. I forgot why I was telling you this story. As you know, my brain is smooth like a manatee because I'm off my ADD medicine now.

AlexIt's better than being smooth like a panda. How is being a... Let's circle back.

MerlinDid you see the endangered manatee relative? that's endangered right now. It's so sad. It's even cuter. Well, manatees aren't as cute as pandas. But that manatee cousin is, have you seen it? It's so cute. What's it called?

AlexIsn't it like the Asian manatee, basically? Hold on, hold on.

MerlinWow. Oh, you want to eat it again an hour later? Endangered manatee.

AlexWell, I think it's extinct now. No one can find the... God, are we both off it? No, no.

MerlinThis is good.

AlexI have the H in the ADHD, but I'm not medicated with that.

MerlinThat's because you took all that five-hour energy stuff. No, I haven't today.

AlexYou're like Guillermo. Oh, she drinks more water. See the wedding episode?

MerlinSee the wedding episode?

AlexYes, I was worried about what we do in the shadows because the first couple episodes, I was like, eh.

MerlinI totally agree. but did you watch did you watch go flip yourself oh my god oh my god i don't even want to say anything about that episode yeah because i oh my god the hat nope it's a bloody cursed hat

Alexyeah um talk about a long con though you know it's he nathan fieldered them and i was just

MerlinHe did. He totally made the feel with them. Yes, yes, yes.

And there's a joke I didn't get that Madeline got, and I had to Google it. I was so embarrassed. Of course, one of our highlights, let's just say in general, there's a character that I like a lot on What We Do in the Shadows who makes an appearance. I think once per season usually.

You got Mr. 50s. You got the silent one.

AlexHi.

MerlinYou got the silent one. You've got like.

AlexCount Rapula, of course.

MerlinCount Rapula. Yes, yes. He's only been rapping since 1991. Very good. Very good. He's so bad. But there's a. Oh, you know, why am I even telling you this? There's a joke I didn't get. Now I even have to Google it. But do you remember when he's introducing his crew and we see somebody we hadn't seen before? And he introduces this young woman who looks, I don't know, kind of like an influencer or something.

It goes by really quick. He goes, Mr. 50s, Elvis, Adele Dazeem. And she's going, did you catch Adele Dazeem? Yeah. That's what Travolta called Idina Menzel. Yes, yes.

AlexNotes, notes, notes. Oh, my God.

MerlinThat's such a deep cut.

AlexYep, yep.

MerlinThat's an old joke.

AlexIt's a, I agree, but it's a good joke. It's one of those, you know what? It's a Merlin Twitter joke where it just sounds funny.

MerlinOh, shit dog.

AlexAnd it's in, if you know, you know.

MerlinRight, but they did it better because if you didn't get it, if you didn't get it, you're not going to be confused about what's happening in the story.

AlexIt actually made me think, I wonder if there are other, because all the names are ridiculous. I'm like, are there other jokes? I am not getting it.

MerlinAnd the fact that it just always goes on and on and on as he keeps introducing. And the guy who used to be his accountant, who's now fully zombified. Oh, my God.

AlexHe makes me sad.

MerlinAnd what was the name of the woman with the bug eyes who gets turned to dust?

AlexOh, I don't know.

MerlinWhat was her name?

AlexI don't know. I haven't even seen the show. Never.

MerlinRemember when he says to Guillermo, it looks like there's this person-shaped pile of dust here? It's funny.

AlexYeah.

MerlinI love Guillermo. I love that Guillermo freaks out. I love how he freaks out in the wedding episode. What we did in the shadows is a good show. You guys should check it out. We should do it for a challenge.

AlexHaven't we done it like twice?

MerlinI don't know.

AlexIt's okay. We return to challenges now.

MerlinNew York City. Camera. Okay. Also, last thing. I realize we've got to be careful not to overuse it. Okay. Speaking of, like in our challenge, speaking of secret weapons in TV shows, if they did any more Creed on The Office than they did, it wouldn't have been as fun. Right? Like they did just the right amount of Creed. And then as they understood Creed's character more, having Creed like get in and get out for like one talking head per episode was in like season four or five. So fucking funny.

And, you know, I don't want to crush the bunny. You know what I'm saying? But Guillermo, I'm just saying Guillermo, love that guy. I love Laszlo. I love Laszlo for this season so far leaning into the way Matt Barry talks.

Alexhe he can take the stupidest

Merlinfucking he can take the simplest line and like it becomes a meme in our house like one of our household's favorite episodes we talked about this the Las Vegas episode Sean and Charmaine's wedding where they go to Viva Atlantic City and then he plays

Alexthe piano oh my god

MerlinBut what was my point about that? Sean and Charmaine don't want to do it too much. Oh, but like remember when they haven't slept because they don't have their dirt? They haven't slumbered?

AlexThey need the dirt of their home. I cannot slumber. Roll the dice.

MerlinSpin that wheel. That's a very famous episode in our house. And there's that one scene where she is just like – she's trying to get – she thinks the rat pack, the fake rat pack is the real rat pack. But they're both so out of it. And then she starts threatening their lives for money. And finally, they're like, we got to leave. And then remember what Laszlo says to the Frank Sinatra guy? Something like, pardon me, Mr. Sinatra. I know my brain's a little messed up right now, but I don't remember you being Chinese.

And he says Chinese with this weird implied extra syllable. I don't remember you being Chinese. And then he goes, I stand corrected. TV's great, man. Are you watching enough TV, do you feel like?

AlexNo, probably not. Probably not. I'm told I read too many books.

MerlinAlex is told that?

AlexAlex is told they read too many books. But the problem I have, well, I guess it's not a problem. The gift of Matt Barry is now I'm just hyper aware of him showing up wherever. Like, just he showed up in Archer. And I was like, what?

MerlinOh, really? He's on a really funny. He's really funny on. There's an episode of Portlandia that he's on. He's very funny.

AlexOh, yeah.

MerlinWhere he plays the children's entertainer.

AlexI keep thinking, is this man, does he know how good he is? And does he know he just needs to appear the exact right amount?

MerlinWell, this gives me a chance to say, I will put this in. I'll put this in notes, notes, notes, notes, notes. which is Jesse Thorne. I think I mentioned this already, but I'll mention it again. Jesse Thorne's show that used to be called The Sound of Young America, he interviews Matt Barry. And how could I love Matt Barry more? But he describes how he started out as a painter, but hung out with all kinds of artistic types. But he was into painting and he was also into music. He was not an actor. But based on apparently one show

where he did musical comedy opening for, it wasn't Jemaine, but somebody maybe like Jemaine. That's how he got his first acting role.

AlexOh, so he is like a music guy. Oh.

MerlinHe's a music guy. But the way he describes it, you'll hear it in the interview. It's such a delightful interview. He just seems like one of those, like, I wish I could be sitting next to this guy in an airport lounge. He just, the kind of person you'd want to hang out with. But he was talking about, basically, when he was a little kid and his parents would take him to like stage productions and how when he was little he really nails this how funny it is you don't think about this when you go to plays how funny it is that two people who probably went to nara are like like inches apart on stage and

talking like almost yelling at each other from like an inch apart and like once you start noticing that like how funny it is and think about the matt berry character he's always talking like this he

Alexfinds a way to put a little spin on it oh wait what does this have to do with the offer oh it's really good um matthew good is uh is osmond is the only similarity that they're both named matthew and both british well you have a matthew too i do have there's many many matthews oh and matt smith I haven't seen Hot D. No Hot D. Spoilers.

MerlinIf I'm being honest, Alex, I don't remember why I started talking about the offer, but it might come back to me. I miss Adderall.

AlexI was curious.

MerlinWell, no, I haven't been on Adderall in over a decade, but yes, I still miss it, which is probably a good thing to realize. Yes. Why no ADD meds?

AlexDexandry. Why no ADD meds? Would you like to be a share?

MerlinOh, it's a long story. Doc in a Box thinks I'm going to have a stroke. So it's a long story.

AlexOh, good Lord.

MerlinYeah, I'm doing a whole thing. But yeah, that's fun. Idina Menzel. So there is a Wicked movie coming and it's going to be in two parts. Is that right?

AlexI don't know. I will believe it when I see it.

MerlinIt sounds weird. They're going to do Wicked. Most of the good songs, cover your ears. Most of the good songs are in Act 1. And, um, and, but like, how do you make that? They're going to do it as a two-parter, like a, like a Deathly Hallows.

AlexOh, gross.

MerlinHow do you do that with Wicked?

AlexI have no idea. I mean, I can, again, don't, don't, I don't follow the movie trades anymore because after Dear Evan Hansen, I just gave up.

MerlinOh, I see. Adaptations. Yeah. No. Yeah.

AlexWell, actually, fuck, fuck. What is it called? West Side Story was actually quite underrated.

MerlinBut when a West Side Story comes into my life,

AlexI just want to be like, yes, yes, good, thank you. But, oh, after Dear Evan Hansen, I just can't have my heart broken over and over and over. This wicked looks like a disaster. Oh, no.

MerlinI think I get it. I think I get what you're saying. you speaking of vulnerability right you put yourself out there too many sometimes you said i believe in you hollywood you're not gonna fuck this one up yeah no this has been happening for years though you look at how many people have replaced how many people i mean you know like we talked about with when verdon you know being replaced by shirley mcclain in her own show oh god that's uh challenge challenge i don't know how's everything else going your radio show's

Alexgoing okay oh yeah it's it's great it's great i watched both episodes or the last two episodes for the third time this morning what of fossey verdon yeah the chicago episode is just uh well i want to know about uh what we talked about your stroke we talked about the offer it's very good

Merlini i think that are you are you into the lore and background do you do you know who robert evans is and like do you know like the whole bit about robert evans i i do it but vaguely did you ever see the kids days in the picture for example no okay is that another piece of homer you know what i'm gonna i mean robert evans like just quick and i probably remember why i started talking about this because i already forgot but robert evans was a producer he started out as this handsome

boy actor in the 50s. He became the head of Paramount Studios, which at the time was owned by Charlie Bluthorn. Oh, Charlie Bluthorn in this? He's played by that guy I like, that my kid likes, Gern Blanston, Bern Gorenstein, the guy who's the other guy in Pacific Rim. Oh, sorry. Here we go. Flowers for Charlie, the guy from Pacific Rim.

AlexOh, oh, oh, oh. The other British.

MerlinYeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The guy with the cane. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

AlexYes, yes.

MerlinWho's also, he's so fucking scary in Game of Thrones. Oh, my God.

AlexWell, wasn't Rob Evans sort of like a almost Bob Fosse type thing? Like he wanted to be the big handsome boy. And then he was like, well, if I will take the power instead, if I can't be happy being pretty.

MerlinYeah. And there's all kinds of, you hear stories about Robert Evans. And he was married to Ally McGraw. He got Ally McGraw. He not only produced, caused the production of Love Story, but got them to cast his lady friend in it. He did Godfather. He did Chinatown. He did Urban Cowboy. He did all this stuff. But he's kind of legendary as being this weird, over-tanned Hollywood showpiece. Very weird guy. Thing is, at some point, I guess in the 80s or 90s, he wrote a memoir called The Kid's Days in the Picture.

and also did the audio book. And the audio book became a thing of legend and lore. So like almost anybody who's weirdly obsessed with Robert Evans, it's because of his audio book. Where Robert Evans does it. It's so much cocaine. Like his nose barely even works. But like when I do that voice, do you recognize that as like the Robert Evans kind of voice?

AlexYes, but I didn't know his audio book was. Go on. Go on. Is this – oh, it is –

MerlinIt is the ultimate Hollywood insight. It's telling stories about Charlie Bluthorn, that crazy Austrian. And the bit that's a line from the book that is emblematic that Patton Oswalt quotes in his bit that I'm quoting. Frank Sinatra was on the phone and he was not crooning. Was I afraid? You bet your ass I was. Do I ask myself a lot of hypothetical questions? I do. He just has this really weird – I know that sounds a little Jiminy Glick, but that's okay. He's a Hollywood insider, too. And that became Stuff of Legend. And then eventually that got made into that, you know, kind of puffed up documentary, The Kid Stays in the Picture.

Matthew Good's version of Robert Evans is astonishing, especially because he's from England.

AlexYou continue to find what I'm trying. I need a name for, but limited series that are overlooked. And then they don't.

MerlinThere's so many things out there. Yeah. And that's even before you go back and re-watch Yellow Jackets. Like, there's so much good stuff we've gotten.

AlexOh, I'm doing a re-watch now. It's so.

MerlinIt is. I mean, like, right. We have just. You know I love Tim Robinson. And you know I love Richard Splat. Who's that? Anyway, Robinson and Richardson. I love Sam Richardson. Baby of the year. Also Richard Splat on Veep. You know, they have a show called Detroiters. And I'm only now. Only now are my kid and I watching Detroiters.

AlexDo you like it?

MerlinI do. It's not as razor sharp and weird as his other stuff, but there's a lot to like about it. And it's got great, I don't know, I think it's really fun. And it's good having it on in the background show if you don't like HGTV.

Which I don't.

AlexGo flip yourself. I'm a TBS person. Oh, that's not true.

MerlinLike in that episode, like when they're interviewing, who are they talking to? Are they talking to Laszlo? But in the background, you can see far back in the background. When they're scooting back. Burying the body. And then you can see Laszlo, or you can see Nandor, Nandor. You can see Nandor realizing that they've been seen. It's a shot. Trying to play it off legit. Oh my God, this show's so good.

AlexI am trying to find out where the crossover is between people who've worked on this show and who've worked on Community because there's got to be some writers or some producers. Like, there's so much. Like, the obvious comparison is when, you know, Abed has his whole storyline in an episode just literally in the back of the frame, sometimes not even in focus.

MerlinOh, the baby?

AlexYes.

MerlinThat's insane. Completely insane.

AlexYes. And I am...

MerlinOr do you like When Beetlejuice Walks By? There's that kind of stuff, too. You ever seen When Beetlejuice Walks By?

AlexYes. Oh, my God. And I did not notice that until the internet told me. It's so good.

MerlinWell, until I started watching those compilations and 150 things you didn't know about community.

AlexIt is possibly. And I know that this sounds wrong.

MerlinNo, you're not getting pushed back? Nope. Go ahead. Say it.

AlexWell, even though it has all of the fandom and six seasons and a movie, and even in 2020, They did the table read. It's still one of the most underrated sitcoms ever made. And it's brilliant. And I just every time I think about the story circle and it's so good.

MerlinIt's really smart, but it's one of those smart dumb shows in some ways. Like it's not I mean, like if you just saw like a clip from Community, like it's not really the same as like understanding the like the arc of the characters. and you know.

AlexWhat would you describe as a smart dumb show? Because I think we have different standards. A lot of people have different standards for this.

MerlinWell, it's a straightforward like smart-ish dumb shows which I think are better looked at as like encouraging your sense of irony like David Letterman, Beavis and Butthead, those kinds of things. I don't know if Letterman's a smart show but okay, here's a smart dumb show. So speaking of Matt Berry, Toast of London, I think, is a smart dumb show.

AlexI mean, why is it dumb? Like dumb as in like dumb humor?

MerlinI mean, What We Do in the Shadows is I was saying to my kid yesterday, like it's when I think about What We Do in the Shadows and the episodes I really, really like. I don't know if we all like the same things, but I feel like the storytelling logic in a given episode of what we do in the shadows for some parts of usually like the second act will be basically the story logic of a Bugs Bunny cartoon. It really is like, you know, I feel like animation, there's so many possibilities for what you can do with animation.

And it's like anything can happen. You can do anything as anything. and I love that what we do in the shadows is not afraid to go there and I think the only times this season where they lose their way is they lose a little track of like who that character is and what makes them special I think they didn't get Nandor very well the first few episodes anybody well the first few episodes but you know what I'm saying like that's but like a dumb like it can be like dumb jokes that Matt Barry I get another Matt Barry show the one that never mind you'll find it on your own but there's one where he's in this his first TV project

is this fake 80s medical drama that's all deliberately done in this over-the-top, very campy way. As far as what else is... See, okay, let's think also, though, of the corollary or the opposite, maybe, of this, is the show that thinks it's smart, but it's not that smart, the kind of thing Max used to talk about, one of those prestige shows that thinks it's doing something really, really smart.

Alexlike like the uh house of cards of maybe yeah i i like that show but no i know what you mean like yeah yeah that's not a bad example but the netflix original series type of i i i mean would would

Merlindairy girls count as a smart dumb show it's not dumb but i mean it's but like when there's a sense of like for example what i'm trying to get out with community is so much of it is obviously based in at least a juvenile sense of humor. Not that the jokes are being done to be deliberately juvenile, but like Abed is obviously Dan Harmon to me.

AlexOh, that's an interesting thing.

MerlinYou don't make those kinds of jokes without deeply understanding. You could not make a successful Abed character without really understanding the obscure thing he's going to say that most people won't understand. Like you would have to be a real nerd to like successfully create a character like Abed.

AlexDo you know the like origin story of why he started writing Community?

MerlinI don't.

AlexOh, okay. Story time.

MerlinWhat was he doing before that?

AlexIt's really, it's just super fast. He went to a, in fact, I think it was like.

MerlinOh, because he actually went to community college at some point. Is that right? Yes.

AlexTo try to save a relationship with his girlfriend. You can guess how that went well. And he was really resistant to bond with the people he was in class in because he was like, I'm better than this. I'm smarter than this. I'm just here because I have to be. Meh, meh, meh.

MerlinYeah, like Jeff.

AlexYep. And he's like, okay, I'm writing this show as if Jeff was me. And then very quickly, he's like, oh, fuck, no. I am Abed. I'll try to find the interview where he talks about this. It's really good. But that's when the show started getting good, I think, when he was like, oh, OK, like this is not who the show is about.

MerlinOr like like when George Costanza or sorry, when Jason Alexander purportedly for at least through, I guess, a lot of the first season, you know, the story, right? Where if you watch the first season of Seinfeld, Jason Alexander, which is, you know, it's it's fun to watch the show finding its feet. It's a different kind of show. It obviously gets better.

AlexAnd it's a different kind of fun, I think. Not everyone enjoys that.

MerlinYeah, but it feels much more 80s. But the thing is, if you watch the early episodes of Seinfeld, and forgive me, most of you already probably know this, but the first few episodes of Seinfeld especially, George is fairly obviously basing his character on Woody Allen. He's got that kind of like, I mean, basically, I think everybody on Seinfeld is secretly Jewish, except maybe for him. But I think they kind of code George's family as Italian, but they're obviously all Jewish.

Joey Louis-Dreyfus, she's from Jewish royalty, practically.

AlexYeah, whoop, whoop. We're not going to say that word.

MerlinHe's really doing more straightforward like a Woody Allen. And the story goes, and I don't know if this is true, but this is a story that Jason Alexander says. Jason Alexander is, and this is, of course, back when Larry David was still doing the show, and he said, look, this scene, just... It was one of those classic Seinfeld setup of like, you know, I don't know what it was, but it was like, let's just say for the sake of argument, I like, I don't understand why you would break in to somebody's apartment to steal their cassette from their message machine.

Like nobody in a million years would ever do that. And I just need to figure out how to play this because I don't think anybody would ever do that. And the story goes, Larry Davis says, what are you talking about? It's like, I did that. this is a true story. And like, this scale fell from his eyes and he realized, oh shit, he's not Woody Allen. He's got to be playing Larry David. And that's when he really found the character. Oh,

AlexI didn't know. Wait, Larry did.

MerlinOh, you had to have the big salad.

Challenge?

AlexChallenge! Challenge! This week's challenge was a continuation of last week's to, well, there was some confusion.

MerlinIt was a continuation and an extension as previously discussed.

AlexYes, yes.

MerlinYou couldn't find a working controller. And you played along with me anyhow. And for that, I thank you.

AlexI did! I did! I was, I, I, by the time I had realized that you were still talking about all that jazz, it was in a separate chat. And I was like, wait, no, we didn't watch it. The, oh, I was, that's the thing. All that jazz and, and Bobby Fosse's life kind of, kind of super, very, totally similar. I don't know. We shall get to it. oh i had an espresso shot a moment ago oh yeah it was i would say this is your challenge oh yeah

Merlinwell i mean we kind of talked about it last time but uh you watched uh through to the end it sounds

Alexlike i did and watched the last two episodes multiple times they were very very good do we have anything to say about it yes i don't know last week we kind i just talked about how i wasn't a fan of the directing and oh you did yeah and i don't know like there are so many short um like period pieces now that i'm kind of like all right these are all the same

And there's all of the, you know, the flashback tropes and stuff like that. But what made this just pop in an extraordinary way are all of the performances down to the extras or, you know, the chorus line.

MerlinOh, yeah.

AlexAnd I was transfixed by the relationship between Bob Fosse and Gwen Verdon. I didn't know the extent of their collaboration. I didn't know, I guess, how she enabled him a bit. This doesn't make any sense if people haven't seen it. What's your tweet or medium definition?

What description of Bob Fosse?

MerlinYou want to hear a truth length. I say truth now.

AlexTruth. A truth? A truth? Like Trump's?

MerlinYeah, like a truth social. Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes.

AlexWell, and I'm... Oh, and what turned you on to this, actually?

MerlinOh, well, okay. Let's see. Well, I was turned on to it because I'm interested in the work of Bob Fosse, and I love the movie All That Jazz. I don't love all his movies, but, you know, I do think his style of choreography, his style is so iconic. As far as the show, and I'd seen it on Hulu, and of course it's got Sam Rockwell, and I don't know why it took me so long to finally watch it. And it's got, of course, you know, Michelle Williams.

AlexI hadn't even heard of it. I don't know why this was very.

MerlinReally? Wow. yeah well uh let's see and so i i think what had happened was and this happens sometimes me being who i am is i think i'd started it once and i was like okay yeah this seems fine but like i agree with you i mean i again somebody provides us gosh alex why am i always trying to defend myself against something nobody is saying i don't know but uh but uh i love sam rockwell i love michelle Williams. I agree with you on all the casting stuff. And I also agree that all I can speak to

is the story that's being told here, which is like any story going to have its own sort of angle on things. But I thought the show especially did a really interesting job of exploring the complexity and the subtlety of their relationship. Well, and it must, it can't go without saying that, Like, and the fact that like, you know, she was, what is it that we say? Like, you know, men, women's beauty fades over time. And so consequently they tend to lose power.

Men's, you know, looks don't matter as much or get better as they get older in some cases. And like, there is that terrible disparity where if you're in a career that's defined in great part by things like beauty, fitness, agility, all that kind of stuff. I just, I love the fact, I think she does such a good job of playing Gwen Verdon at different ages. And to me, that's where the flashbacks become so gratifying, is when we know, when I did not know what a star she was.

Bob Fosse is the name I know. I couldn't name you a Gwen Verdon play or movie. Oh, and that's one part of this also. It's like the extreme New Yorkness of this, the Manhattan-ness, Manahata, the Manhattan-ness of this.

AlexQuick clarification. I mean flashbacks to other scenes already shown in previous episodes. Oh. It just felt overdone. I love the flashbacks to, oh God, the first time they meet and stuff like that. But yeah, it felt very, not just New York, but very, very Broadway. And not like the, ah, razzle dazzle.

MerlinBut like you gotta, but you, that's, again, I'm going to stop saying this. The thing I said last time. Like it's difficult for us to appreciate today. In an age where, at least until COVID, Broadway was a big ticket item. Very expensive shows to produce and to go see. you know lines you'd wait in for like you know with hamilton tickets for example i guess the most well-known example of you know waiting for months to get tickets to hamilton and i think this does such a neat job of going like broadway was for many years a very new york phenomenon seeing

live theater was something you would i guess you could do it anywhere but people who starred in plays and musicals on Broadway or I guess even off Broadway, they were stars. And I think they do such an interesting job of all the different times where they let us, they make it so clear that without riding on my coattails, you would have been just another bald dancer, a failed bald dancer. Great line. Oh, and you finally saw that scene. I want to hear what you think about that scene.

But when I say it's very Manhattan, very New York, there are those certain kinds of movies, I think famously the gritty movies of the 70s that show you like what Times Square used to look like and but the or a movie like what was the other one I was thinking of recently? But but just where it's it's very centered on living in Manhattan. And I think to overstate this, like to me, I think of a Broadway play as like a big thing where maybe you see a performance on the Tonys,

Maybe it gets adapted into a movie. But like I said, things like Camelot or My Fair Lady, each one was a phenomenon and had a record-breaking cast recording of the show. So, and again, to refer to Robert Evans here, I think a similar or analogous parallel thing happening as the studio system was starting to begin to fall apart in the late 60s, the classic studio system. I think in another way, I wonder, you know, Broadway's going a lot, I feel like broader, where you're bringing in stuff like, I don't know, Godspell or Hair, later on, you know, Jesus Christ Superstar.

You're bringing in these really weird shows. And I don't know. Like I say, it reminds me of being a little kid. And like back when I would go to see a movie, I get dropped off or go with, you know, somebody else. And I get dropped off. And like it used to be to see a movie didn't cost a lot. And also you were usually permitted to go in if it was still the end of a certain like. So the screening you're there for starts, you know, in an hour. and they were like, oh, you want to go in and see the end?

I'm like, we would do that. You would just go in and watch the end of a movie and stay around and then watch it. Very informal. Whereas now today, to me, it's a whole thing to go to the movies. I just think there's parallel things happening with the way the impact that these media had on popular culture were both undergoing a lot of tumultuous change. And that starts, to me, starts right up in the first episode. where, I mean, I have not looked this up yet,

but I did not know that Hey Big Spender was from Sweet Charity, and the implication being that that's a song that was, and a number that was put together in the late 60s. Is that right? Let's look it up. But I was saying to my kids, like, you can't appreciate, like, this is pretty racy dancing for an age before movies had ratings.

AlexFor some reason, I thought that Chicago was developed in the late 80s. I don't know why I thought that.

MerlinWell, probably because you're used to the, you know...

AlexThe revival, at least.

MerlinYes, like the movie, right, with What's-Her-Name and What's-Her-Name.

AlexEven before that, there was a West End revival, and then I think it was both soundtracks. Both of the recordings, actually all three are very good, from the original cast to the revival to the I really like the movie.

Merlinpeople. And you're listening to, just to be clear here, you're talking about audio recordings that you're not seeing the dancing. You like the, as we say, numbers in them. You like the songs.

AlexYes. What's it called? Oh, Quinn's probably going to kill me. Original cast, the OCR. That's not what it's called, but whatever.

MerlinYeah, like an original cast recording. Yeah. Yeah, it says here it was written, it wasn't Kander and Ebb, but it was written by Cy Coleman and Dorothy Fields. Big Spender. was written for the musical Sweet Charity, first performed in 1966. And I don't know. I mean, obviously, I mean, cabaret.

AlexOh, my God.

MerlinThat's pretty racy for whatever that was, 72, I think.

AlexI mean, even like the very first scene we see where the two of them meet. And I'm like, oh, this is very sensual. What year is this? And I'm like, oh, this is them flirting. oh, no, wait, the entire number is this, like, how was Elvis considered a big fucking deal? And I'm like, there's a bunch of cabaret people humping each other on stage. It was very interesting.

MerlinI mean, like, really almost lurid, you know, prurient, to use words that censorship types like to use. But I just, you know, for me, that was to start out straight opening with like, OK, it's Bob and Gwen and they're shooting a scene for Sweet Charity. And like I immediately I feel like I like the way we're like dropped into this world. Well, at least for me, I can look at that, those dance scenes and go like, that's pretty. That seems like a guy who performed, you know, in burlesque houses as a kid.

AlexYeah. Oh, my God.

MerlinStained his big boy pants. In the movie, he's studying Latin when that happens. But yeah, yeah. And I just, I thought it did, I liked that it was so New York-y in so many ways. Because it really, that's the world we're talking about here. The people who go to see those shows. People like, you know, the person who could greenlight their adoption. Or the person who's trying to help them get pregnant. Or like whatever it is. All those people, I love the way they effuse about Gwen and her stardom.

And she plays it so well. Like she gets Bob a nicer hospital room based on like her fame and like parceling out her celebrity to this doctor and his wife. And it's so canny. And then, of course, I guess that really, you know, the subtext becomes text in the Razzle Dazzle song. where they're going to have to convince the adoption person that they're the most normal, healthy couple in the world that's worthy of an adoption.

AlexAnd the entire, like you mentioned, the scene where she's just kind of flirting with a doctor like, oh, you're a big fan of mine. Let's get some nicer room. But the entire.

MerlinBut to the point, though, where they could go, oh, yeah, you saw me in that. And he goes, of course I saw you in that. You were great in that. These people go out to enough plays, often enough, that they could have seen one of their favorite stars and it just kind of slipped their memory. Like the same way I might go, I can't remember what year I first saw Arches of Loaf, but I know I saw them like a bunch of times, right? The same way that I would go to rock shows four nights a week. These people, I think, would go out and just catch a show pretty often. And that made a star in this New York demimonde that that makes a star out of somebody like Chita Rivera or, you know, Gwen Verdon.

AlexWell, all the time that they are, you know, acting, acting in terms of interacting with like normal people. I love seeing sort of behind the scenes of all of these different characters constantly like taking stock of their own fame of like, OK, who who has the power to make this show work? Like, who can we say, like, who can make sure that...

MerlinYou're constantly needing to capitalize on your latest success.

AlexRight, yes. And if you don't have success, you need to just figure out, like, the fame math of who you need to schmooze to get what you want in a way that, sure, like, happens now. But it felt I don't want to say it felt less gross, but it was very straightforward.

MerlinI think that's the way a lot of America worked in terms of the dynamics of power.

AlexRight.

MerlinIt's not unusual at all to like in a very nice and civil way ask somebody to do the equivalent of accepting a bribe, you know, from you. um but the i i said this last time but like now that you've seen it and maybe seen it more than once do you like do you sort of get what i'm talking about with the way they situate their relationship and the way that we see them alongside other people and that like the way that they are collaborators in maybe to eat both of their chagrin we see so many instances where like

like when Gwen covers well how do you describe that? The scene where she's like we're going to do Chicago. Bob's going to direct it with me and Bob's in the hospital. He's not going to be directing anything but that's very much for her and very much for him. Like she needs to like she's going to do better with this. They both do better. They both are more likely to get a project made if the two of them are working on it is the impression that I got. Like you're going to get both. absolutely yeah yeah and so both of them kind of again whether they like it or not they both end up

having to sort of utilize or if you like use each other in those situations because that's a part of the relationship you hear these people talk people talk about this all the time all the sucks was so good but we couldn't get along and in this case the collaboration stuff is so promising it's just that in some ways he's a person on the ascent now and is doing it as she very you know in a very straightforward way says like on my coattails in some ways i can make one call bob one call

Alexthe i didn't even really think of the band analogy and until now it's like they're you know uh he he wants to do a solo career but no like we want the beatles we don't just want one uh one in some ways

Merlinthey're both title in some ways they're both art garfunkel yes we're like i mean like everybody Art Garfunkel, my God, he's got a voice like an angel and he's, you know, but like, you know, Art Garfunkel or John Oates is going to be a bigger or for that matter, the guy, the other guy, Andrew, what's his name from Wham? like any of those people are much more likely to get booked for a gig if they're doing it with if the real draw ends up being in that instance daryl hall or whatever but you need

both of them together but art garfunkel is not going to go out and find it's not going to be i think that's actually the name of a of a comedy duo garfunkel and oats like you're not going to get both of the other guys and i think they both feel a little chagrined that in some ways they are the other guy to the other person. I don't know if that makes any sense.

AlexOh, it does. And that's what I think is what Michelle Williams brings to it of the not like imperfect, almost like an imperfect victim role, or rather, they do not victimize her. Like there is, they show all of the facets of this very, very messy relationship and God, like, and showcase showcasing the all of the uh fares this guy had like i vaguely knew that bob fossey had affairs

he's a horn dog yeah yeah but but then we find out that he literally cannot sleep unless there's someone with him because of you know um demon dogs as you'd say and yeah he's on uppers and downers constantly and i i don't they don't really address this but it almost seems like he's a sex addict or like a relationship dopamine addict or something yeah i forget if this is in fossey

Merlinverdon or in all that jazz it's probably in all that jazz but talking about like like kind of like the the three things well i don't want to get into it because well you're going to eventually see the movie and we'll talk about it but okay so there's one scene i mentioned before and i'm curious about your take on this i was making when i when i perceived that you were saying this wasn't very well directed i was just saying like there's that one scene that i especially love right before before he imagines walking out the window. And I do feel like in the story that they're telling, they present that as this, I don't know what you'd call it,

the last good moment, the last pure moment, but it's the last moment of the rise of his career that he could feel good about. And all his friends are at this party, and his kids lighting cigarettes and doing an impression of him. And I just got the feeling that that one party everybody's at, I think in his head, it feels like that was the last moment where this was pure. Where like now, whatever success he gets is making him more miserable.

AlexI don't even know if he was ever – like I guess there was definitely times where he was happier. But even all of his friends keep –

MerlinWell, it gets held up to the part later on where he's like got all of – we see now, oh gosh. Now he's got having successes, so many successes. And that's expressed through this weird like hotel room he seems to be living in where the number of awards on that table keep piling up. And eventually we see him like extremely drunkenly like walking down the sidewalk with his Tony Award. But each one of these things that goes to the next level, all he sees increasingly because he does hate himself. Not that that saves him, but I think he is filled with self-loathing.

And he, like a lot of us, hears the voice of a stern parent in his head or his tap dance instructor. Like, don't let me see the sweat. All that stuff. It's like each thing that another person looks in from the outside and sees as a victory causes him more consternation and self-doubt and an increasingly renewed focus on things like negative reviews. Like, that's all he can see.

AlexEven the title cards we get that's, you know, it says three weeks open or. Oh, really? The biography?

MerlinYeah, yeah. In the book, each chapter is like 19 years left, 18 years left.

AlexYeah. And I love that. There were ones that were like 12 months since last award or like six months since the first review and stuff like that. I didn't realize this the first.

MerlinTen years that Gwen Verdon has been trying to get the rights to this, and you're not allowed to fuck it up. Wasn't it heartbreaking how much work she put in to making this happen?

AlexI mean.

MerlinAnd you won't even give her her own song.

AlexGod, it's Roxy's song. You're a failed ball dancer. I didn't notice this the first time. He threatens both realistically and jokingly to jump out of a window multiple times. Like that seems to be some sort of hyper fixation of I, you know, when he's doing that like Lenny Bruce fantasy type thing of like, yeah, dying young.

MerlinOh, when he's doing his stand up thing.

AlexYeah, and he keeps romanticizing, dying young, and has like a pseudo-suicide attempt.

MerlinDo you know that in All That Jazz, death is a character?

AlexLiterally? I did not know that.

MerlinPlayed by a very young Jessica Lange.

AlexOh my god!

MerlinYou need to watch this fucking movie. You need to find your controller, dude.

AlexMatt's going to Best Buy to get a Blu-ray player. But I really love the way that it's shown, like, they do not romanticize his addictions and probable mental illnesses. And they showcase, oh man, the way he sees himself as a failure, even because he can't kill himself.

himself and just the I I mean the way that he continues to obsess not even over success but but just like legacy in general like almost like it would be an okay it would be fine if I was an asshole if I died because then at least I was still I'd still have this and people wouldn't remember me just as an asshole but also the sweet charity guy yeah um i just i just cannot say enough

Merlingood things about michelle williams she's such a gifted actress it's like her performance here is just is so subtle and so i don't know i you just it's it's when he fucking calls her on the phone the one moment he knows she's not supposed to talk oh i don't remember oh the guy from white lotus who's her boyfriend slash husband now remember she has to rest her voice after the yes yes oh my god and the most ironic show business injury of all time one of the great

stars of the 20th century on broadway her voice gets fucked up was like a confetti cannon like shot her in the mouth yeah it's like give me a break and then he calls her the one time that

Alexlike she can't talk and i mean this isn't the most important thing but again michelle like the way that she does the voice sounds so much like when actors and and singers fuck up and injure their voice which is really hard to do like how yeah even doing that performance is going to be difficult yeah yeah yeah it's like fuck this is and and um the way that she does Roxy Hart,

one of the leads from Chicago. Like, watching her try to put youth into that role after like...

MerlinYou're talking about when she's singing the song that Kander and Ab wrote for her, that one scene?

AlexBoth. When she, the first time she needs to do the rehearsals and she's like, you know, quite literally like warming up and then... Oh, right, right, right.

MerlinAnd they cover this in the movie too, where like Like Bob's trying to help her and help her keep her dignity in some ways. I feel like – I think he's not going to tell her that he's doing this. But he'll slow – at this point I can't remember what I saw in him. But we're going to slow down the number, this more sinewy like – or the ventriloquist scene where like sit down. Like I think he is in some ways trying to help her and trying to have a performance out of her based on where she is in life right now that's as good as it can be.

but also as the director he's like i you know like when she remember the second time that he has her sing the song in that scene and she's definitely using like head voice she's not really like belting or anything and you're like i thought that was such a nice like subtle note i think he almost wanted her to like be like i i can't do this song like yeah oh absolutely like uh i mean

Alexand let her see it herself she it it is better with both of them they're like this

Merlinit's just famously an amazing you see what i mean about the way he responds though like he doesn't

Alextake it personally he doesn't like i don't know if he doesn't take it i i don't know but it's not

Merlingoing to help him to blow up in front of the cast who already supports her more he's going to try and keep it focused on what it is, the work that they're doing in his role as the person who ultimately makes those decisions. But then she pulls out her nickel, and she's like, won't call, won't call.

AlexThat was so badass.

MerlinAlso, of course, Margaret Qualley, giant hands, amazing.

AlexOh, God.

MerlinShe's got a face made for crying.

AlexShe really does?

MerlinShe's such a good crier.

AlexThat really broke my heart.

MerlinWhich part?

AlexOh, the hospital? No, no. Like her, just her whole, from the very first time she smokes and throws up and is like, oh, that's cute. But then you slowly like see her descend into wanting to please both of her parents. But seeing the only times that they are happy is when.

MerlinOh, you're talking about the daughter, the daughter.

AlexWait, who are you talking about?

MerlinOh, Anne Reinking, as played by Margaret.

AlexOh, her, sorry, the girlfriend, right?

MerlinI thought the wigs on the daughter were weird, but I did like the performances a lot. She has a real weird wig a couple times.

AlexWas there – I thought there was a different actress.

MerlinOh, they are. They are. But when she's a little bit older around the time of like the recital. But yeah, but like everybody and it's – but the thing you recognize in this, recognize as in see and feel familiar with is this whole like, yeah, we've all been in relationships with Bob Fosse. Like, you know what I mean? the person you really want to please and you know like it's something ann reinking says in the movie that she had to try out for to play herself where she's like i just i wish i you know i love what

you do but like i wish you wouldn't be so generous with your cock in particular like it's just breaking her heart that like she's trying to give everything to what she sees i think as their project the same way that you know glenn's still around like they're still very much and then they still do things but like and you know one point that rings a little weird but i think i get is this whole idea and this does get a little bit into like some uncomfortable great man theory stuff but the way everybody including gwen i think i think she says this to somebody maybe

and reiki but says like work with him and like he's going to ruin your life but he'll make you as good as you can be the like but that idea that it's not just i want to sleep with this guy to get apart, although that certainly happens. It overtly happens in all that jazz. But it also is that like he will, he's, he can be a real monster, but he will bring out things in you that you either don't know you're have, you have right now, or you flatly do not have. He will, he will help you develop that. And that's, I mean, how do you, I mean, wouldn't it, isn't that your

dream? Like find a person that you love and are attracted to and are maybe like sexually attracted to and maybe somebody who's famous or maybe somebody who's rich or whatever. But on top of it all, you have a project you're working on together. And it's not just because you're retired and hate each other. It's like the idea that I could become your go-to ingenue for these kinds of roles and you can make my dancing go next level. Because you're going to – I mean, he's not only a director, showrunner guy. He's also in some ways like a brilliant coach maybe in some ways.

AlexOh, absolutely.

MerlinMaybe the better analogy. Yeah. I don't want that to seem like an apology for his shitty behavior. But we believe that. Let's go back to the trauma book. We want to believe in the people that we trust.

AlexI had no idea. I mean, I didn't know the childhood story of Bob Possey. I actually didn't even know he started just as a choreographer or a dancer. I thought that he was always, you know, full on director and producer of Broadway and film. But the knowing and I didn't know this was true, knowing that this kid is repeatedly sexually assaulted when he is a child dancer working at a burlesque.

It's like a low class.

MerlinIt's like a little bit of a sex work again.

AlexIt's like a strip club and like, oh, God. and watching these oh i have not been that uncomfortable in a oh god it wasn't like a game of thrones level of assault but uh yeah if you're gonna watch that episode be prepared to like see this kid just oh you can you can see how that is the start of him needing the comfort of safe women versus women who are foreign and confusing, which, again, I know it's not an excuse

Merlinfor his behavior. No, no, no. But that's a giant theme. Well, in a certain kind of, especially 20th century white Jewish male literature, that's a huge theme. I mean, that's a big thing for like, you know, probably people like Philip Roth, you know, people who just where you're trying to find this connection to something. And I don't know, but you know, just to make it a real greeting card, sad ending in some ways is like, well, our problem,

a secondary problem is that we put our trust in the wrong people, or we put our trust in people the wrong way, but maybe a bigger thing in some ways, and again, different time, is that we invest so much in another person at all, right? To where like, there's all kinds of things that used to seem funny or romantic or whatever. And now they're somewhere between codependent and abusive when you really look at them. You're really keeping somebody strung along to where they more and more have to rely on you.

And I don't know. To me, codependency is such an interesting idea. And I tend to roll my eyes a little bit when it's like an easy response to anything. Like when I first heard in college probably that the true love in life is caring more about the other person than yourself, which I thought was a really good definition of love. And I've been told repeatedly since then, no, actually, that's extremely codependent. I'm like, well, but imagine it weren't. Imagine it weren't. Imagine instead saying like all that matters in this relationship and make any relationship, all that matters in this relationship is I want you to get the stuff that you need.

Even it means I don't get all the stuff that I need. And that sounds terrible, right? But what's being a parent? Do you think there's a good ROI on having kids? Not really. We don't have a field to have them work in. You know what I mean? You do it because that's what matters to you. And you can bask in their reflective glory, I guess.

AlexWell, I was surprised. It almost seems like the relationship Fossey has with all of his mistresses, technically because they were still married, are almost healthier than with Gwen.

MerlinThey have better defined edges, that's for sure.

AlexYeah, yeah. And, oh, God, I, like, the time that, or the relationship Anne and Gwen have of, like, we, yeah, the, not just the he will make you great.

MerlinAnd the way that Anne obviously loves, what, is it Nicole or Michelle? What's her name in real life? Nicole.

AlexNicole.

MerlinYeah, the way that at least, and this goes in the movie, but like her mom loves her and Anne loves her. Like really likes being with her and likes, you know, even though she's really in some ways, it's so hard to talk. Because Margaret Qualley, apparently she's 30, even though she looks like 16. But she almost is like an older sister, almost one of those like Kentucky relationships where you find out that that's not actually the person's younger sister.

AlexYep. And that's a, I think we've already, uh, spoiler horned, but that's, I liked the, uh, oh, uh, uh, um, but the showing.

MerlinWell, Fosse died in the early eighties, FYI. He died bald.

AlexGod, he, oh, he, he could have been.

MerlinThe failed bald dead man.

AlexShave, shave, that head, why, why? He's got like the little strand.

Merlin100 cigarettes per day he smoked. wait serious that's five packs yeah yeah holy shit that used to be an amount that people used

Alexto smoke i i'm like trying to just think of the mechanics of they were a lot less costly oh yeah

Merlinexactly the the mechanics and i remember the other thing i was gonna say is that is it a lot of the stuff is familiar to me because it does feel like some combination of trauma and like a free-form anxiety. It's difficult for me to find a way where I feel good about myself and my life and how I am. And like little victories can be good with that, but they do nothing to assuage all the other things that are not victories, especially the ones you're imagining are coming in the future. And like, I, I, I got time for that. Like seeing somebody who suffers in that particular way,

you know, is meaningful, you know? And then like the million stories about people who retire and a week later have a heart attack or whatever. Well, he had a heart attack on the job, but I actually had a heart attack in the hospital, I think. But that's sort of like if I stop running, I'll fall apart kind of feeling. Like you're run by a motor or something. And it's like you're trying to seek out something you'll never really have, which is, I don't know, the kind of approval of the people who cared about you, who you cared about when you were young.

Alexand i think that's why chicago ended up being such a success because they wanted to make that musical when they were younger and then it ended up being about oh how old were they i'm so confused

Merlinabout this the original there's a movie called chicago that came out in 1927 my my confusion is when she's talking and i haven't looked this up maybe you'll know when she's talked about like starting in the mid-60s, trying to get the rights to put on Chicago. Like, at that point, there's no music for Chicago, is there? I mean, Kander and Ebb wrote that in the 70s, but she needed the rights. Like, to me, it always said Samuel L. French on the cover of all of the plays that we'd licensed for school. Oh, yeah. She needed the rights to put that on.

She needed the rights to do it, but also to adapt it, right? That's what she was, was such a hang-up for her, right?

AlexI, no, I looked this up.

MerlinIt wasn't, it didn't start as a musical.

AlexRight, right. It was a 1926 play and was.

MerlinAnd a movie. I've got the movie on my plex.

AlexOh, wait.

MerlinI want to say 1927. Chicago, 1927.

AlexPlay. Was it a movie?

MerlinSilent crime, comedy, drama. Film stars Phyllis Haber as Roxy Hart, a fame-obsessed housewife who kills her lover in cold blood. 1927.

AlexOh, wow. Well, this is...

MerlinProduced by Cecil B. DeMille.

AlexI don't know who that is. That sounds familiar.

MerlinWhat?

AlexCecil D. Wait, wait. Is that a guy named...

MerlinDid Alex not know who Cecil B. DeMille was? You bet your ass they didn't.

AlexThank you.

302. How Great is Spaghetti?

Show notes

Transcript

302. How Great is Spaghetti?

Show notes

Transcript

0:00

0:21

0:28

0:32

0:40

0:41

0:42

0:51

1:02

1:05

1:11

1:13

1:26

1:27

1:28

1:30

1:33

1:35

1:36

1:41

1:53

2:08

2:17

2:48

2:50

2:54

2:58

3:04

3:20

3:23

3:27

3:28

3:30

3:39

3:47

3:57

4:00

4:02

4:03

4:05

4:08

4:38

4:58

5:29

5:32

5:36

5:40

5:49

5:51

5:58

6:19

6:21

6:23

6:41

6:49

6:58

7:00

7:34

7:37

7:39

7:45

8:15

8:54

8:56

8:59

9:32

9:46

9:49

10:09

10:15

10:20

10:26

10:38

10:41

11:14

11:20

11:25