301. Class Clown Bullshit

AlexThis is Do By Friday, a weekly challenge podcast with Alex Cox and Merlin Mann. This week's challenge, watch Fosse Verdon.

MerlinI don't know. Oh, you're going to do the thing. Okay, hi, pair of pals.

AlexThis is the thing. where Alex gaslights me. I didn't.

MerlinHow? Although, really, we should look at the direct harm that's caused.

AlexOh, my God.

MerlinWant to start the show? Hey, how are you? No, I'm just Josh, and let's really start the show.

AlexI'm not full of beans. Are you full of beans?

MerlinAlex, you are definitely full of beans. What the fuck are you talking about?

AlexI'm not. Do you want me to go read Twitter?

MerlinDo you want me to read Twitter to the audience? No, it's fine. It's fine. You know what I'll do?

AlexLet's do it. I'm calling your bluff. Do it. Do it. Do it. Reading series. Do it. Do it.

MerlinAll right. Let's do a quick flight of Alex. I might salt and pepper this with some nonsensical texts as well. But I've known you long enough now to know when you're having, how shall we put it, a day.

AlexOh, I'm not having a day. Well, I'm having a good day. Good day.

MerlinI'm having a great day. I'm strong like bull. Let's see. Alex Cox. A lot of white queers have Snyder Cut bully energy, so it's possible. Let's see here.

AlexOh, I'm going to get in trouble for that one.

MerlinYeah, I know. You usually delete them. Let's see. Oh, yeah. Sites currently down. I hope the rehearsal gets popular. Oh, something about grooming. You want to talk about grooming?

AlexI'm a groomer.

MerlinTweets are usually deleted. Let's see. Somebody's stealing our show. You're doing the meme. Hi, Alex. How are you?

AlexIt's a good meme. It's not a good meme. It's not a good meme. It is a meme for our time. So what is a meme, really, Merlin? Oh, God, I'm like one of those fucking YouTube podcasts now.

MerlinAre you literally just asking the question?

AlexOh, no.

MerlinWhat is a meme? A video essay.

AlexOh, no.

MerlinIn which I read over a stock music bed while stock images go by. Oh, boy, that's kind of a big red flag for me, the stock images and stock footage.

AlexWhoa, wait, wait. Hold up. Hold up. I thought you were doing like a corporate bit. What do you mean stock image? What's happening?

MerlinOh, I don't want to drag anybody. It's hard work.

AlexI do.

MerlinMaking empty YouTube videos. But in the same way that I was talking to Syracuse last night for the program and I was talking about, I don't know. We were talking about how his podcast habits obviously have changed over the last three years, but especially now that he's on his own. and that phrase Syracuse is forever using when you talk to him, we'll be like, oh, yeah, I'll mention something about the flop house. I'll go, I'm really behind on that. I mentioned something about Dubai Friday. He goes, I'm really behind on that. And he says it in this way like, well, of course,

he's got his six TiVo tuners recording. He's got a lot to do. But I was just bemoaning as a kind of side door bitch title. Side door bitch that I kind of – I wouldn't say this out loud, but I kind of despise the professionalization of podcasting. I miss three white guys talking. Like, I like that genre. I don't like when people have guests. I like when people just play in the space. I really, and like that,

and then what do you call it, a pod drop? What's that? Which sounds like taking a shit.

AlexA feed drop. Yep, a feed drop.

MerlinOh man, I had a huge feed drop yesterday.

AlexYeah.

MerlinAnd just all that stuff. Anyway, but it was just in the service of saying, what was my point? My brain is smooth. We were talking about Beans and Zack Snyder and John Syracuse. I was talking about podcasts and I lost the thread already. Boy, it was a tough time, Alex. You were reading my tweets. I was reading your tweets.

AlexI was making fun of – oh, it doesn't have a preview. Maybe they got so much shit they took it off. But YouTube has its own podcast page now. Oh, okay.

MerlinNo, I know. I know what I was going to say. And, okay, so, you know, I don't know enough to say, and really, this is not going to be all bitching. I'm in a great mood. But, like, you know, why does everybody have guests on?

AlexI like having guests on. It depends on the show. It depends on the show.

MerlinLike, I am, anyway, save it for the show. But, like, I guess people have guests on because they've heard or been told they have guests on. Or maybe they're just bored with each other. But, like, don't, that kind of thing, right? Well, with YouTube videos, you know what I mean? Are mom and dad just not in love anymore? Or dad and dad and dad?

AlexHold up, hold up. This is something. Hold up.

MerlinI'm going to have to start writing things down. YouTube stock footage. Okay, go ahead.

AlexSo I am getting the impression that I know you might be behind, But you're learning a lot from my, perhaps my new favorite podcast, Shameless Acquisition Target, which talks about the current podcasting landscape.

MerlinIronically enough, I'm behind on that.

Alexthis is now something i she hasn't covered this yet in the show but part of the pot the youtube podcast ecosystem, as I understand it, is that feeling of, oh, mom and dad don't really

love each anymore. Oh, the Paul brothers don't seem to, oh, they're kind of bored with boxing. E3 is in a weird space. And I don't know if you know any of the names I'm saying right now, but they're like-

MerlinNo, but I definitely know the phenomenon.

AlexBut then part of the marketing becomes who is having a feud with who, much like the old school YouTube days of story time. And then you talk about the drama between the YouTubers. And then those YouTubers have clips of the other YouTubers talking about the beef. And then they debunk the beef.

MerlinBut of course, they have a big thumbnail.

AlexYeah, yeah.

MerlinI used to get this from the, not Made in His Face, what's the one with Sarah?

AlexYou're Wrong About.

MerlinI used to get this from You're Wrong About. There's that one You're Wrong About where like explaining like, was it makeup YouTube drama?

AlexMaybe. Oh, I think it was Jeffree Star perhaps. Yeah.

MerlinCalling out somebody and then that becomes a thing. And then everybody's giving each other a petard on which to be hoisted. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're saying that's happening with, what's his name, Hank Snow? No, that's the Canadian singer. You're saying it was with the Green Brothers?

AlexOh, no, no, no. Are they feuding? Do not talk about, do not say a bad word about the Green Brothers. If anybody says a bad word about the Green Brothers.

MerlinWhat I know is that they were on an episode of Mabim Bam, and one of them wrote the book where somebody dies. I'm going to learn a lot more about them just so I can drag them.

AlexNo, they're so. are they Canadian? they gotta be Canadian no no no no no they are they're smart one of the yes they're charming

Merlinthey're charming

Alexthey are I've had the privilege of working with both of them yeah I'll flicks that but they are exactly their online persona are you gonna post a photo

Merlinwith them when one of them dies? please do that I wish I had more photos with famous people who die Todd and I are always talking about the people who like this is my one opportunity here's a picture where Robin Williams is sweaty and walking off stage and I'm standing next to him like Stephen Colbert pointing at his black friend.

AlexRIP to Robin Williams.

MerlinI had the privilege of being sweated on by him in 1983. I can still taste the cocaine.

AlexI mean, it took a lot not to post the photo of Matthew and I with Matthew Smith because he's a big deal again. And he smells good. He smells the best. So if any crazy fan kills him, I will be posting that on Twitter because it's a cringe and adorable photograph.

MerlinAnd just so you know, my youngster still remembers that your file card on him is that he smells good.

AlexHe smelled so good. I mean, I made my family.

MerlinI didn't realize how well you said specifically no spoilers for what's called hot dog.

AlexWhat's the name of it? Hot D. Hot D.

MerlinBut you know what? I'm not going to say anything. I'm not going to say anything. But it's got Patty Considine in it. Is that a spoiler? You know the guy from the movies? Do you know him?

AlexNo, no.

MerlinDid you ever see the movie Hot Fuzz?

AlexYeah, but I don't know their names. And do you remember?

MerlinCan I finish my anecdote?

AlexYes, yes. You asked me a question. Am I supposed to go? I'm supposed to use the YouTube thing of the Joe Rogan sidekick of uh-huh, uh-huh, yup, yup.

MerlinNo, you're just supposed to go, that's a good question.

AlexThat's a good question. Tell me more. Okay.

MerlinDo you remember when Frank Buttermann is giving Nicholas the tour of the office and here's the done and then these are the Andes? And he goes, do you know why they're called the Andes? Because they're both called Andrew. Yeah. So remember the two guys and the guy with the coming in and out of the frame, you know, in that famous shot?

AlexI don't, Merlin. Tell me more.

MerlinPatty Considine is in at least two Edgar Wright movies. He's one of the Andes. And did you ever see The World's End?

AlexI haven't. Tell me more.

MerlinOh my god. Okay, you got me. You win.

AlexI was ready. I was ready to do it the whole time. Now here's the thing. When you make a YouTube...

MerlinWhat?

AlexWorld's End is the most underrated.

MerlinOh, he's the one who's the builder and has the fitness girlfriend.

AlexYes, I know that. I was doing the bit. I was in your space. I was playing along. I was having a good old time.

MerlinDo you know who Patty Considine is? Do you know who he is?

AlexYes.

MerlinHis name is Patty Considine.

AlexHe's been in other things, too. And the only reason I know that is because his name is Patty, and I feel bad.

MerlinIt's an unusual name. Yeah. Yeah. But sometimes, listen, listen, listen. There's ways to do this well. Wendover Productions where definitely like another one of those like it's kind of like a CGP grade video but not really but no there's a way now there's a way now it's not the lockpicking lawyer lockpicking lawyer but there's a way that people talk in these essay videos and there's a very specific way that the Wendover guy in particular talks and boy I don't know if people even realize that they're like doing a bit but his videos have

a fair amount of stock footage but I think he does it in a canny way What I'm talking about is when you pull up a YouTube video, and really somebody wrote something and they're reading it, right? So that's the thing. If it's a podcast and you're reading something, I've got to be honest with you. That doesn't really count as a podcast. But anyway, in my idea.

AlexThat's all of Factory Settings, which is why you will never hear one of those episodes. But you're right. It is not a podcast. Oh, God. See, I'm a gatekeeper-y. I'm gross.

MerlinWell, not a podcast in my – no, no, no. You're doing a radio show. You're doing a radio show. That's fine.

AlexIt's an NPR.

MerlinIt's a public radio style. No, it is a podcast. It's available through an XML thing.

AlexLike, I get it. Okay, here's the thing, though. I feel like saying something isn't a podcast now just devalues a podcast because it's like, no, no, no. That is a podcast. It's just a shitty fucking podcast.

MerlinI have no relevance, Alex. If I had said that when I had relevance or could be sexually attractive, I could forgive you for dinging me. I'm just saying as somebody who's been enjoying this form of audio for a fairly long time, it's when we move more in the direction of professionalization. And I don't mean that in a good way. I mean professionalization in a way of like, what's that term people use? Reversion to the mean. Like this sort of like hegemonic centrifugal force that makes more and more podcasts kind of alike.

It kind of bums me out. And then when podcasts that are really good weird podcasts start doing that, it's kind of less fun for me. That's all I meant. No, I like all the great shows.

AlexI don't. They're bad. Most podcasts now are horrible. They're the worst, and I listen to fewer podcasts every day.

MerlinDid you ever have, like, when you're a kid and you get Play-Doh, and then you get, like, one of those, like, Dr. Drill and Phil, or you get the thing where you can make cookies? I just imagine somebody saying, okay, give me a big fistful of blue, and I'll shove it into the hopper and then push down the thing, and out comes a star. And it's like, well, that's cool, and you can cut them into other stars, but, like, can't you just, like, can't you just give me the Play-Doh and like I'll decide what it is.

AlexWe are saying the same things, but I'm doing it with the millennial. We are saying, we are discussing the same concept. I think that right now.

MerlinYou just like it because it's not a phone call.

AlexNo. Who does? You know what, Merlin, this is interesting. What is the first, do you remember what the first podcast you listened to was and when it premiered? Because I'm thinking that I listened to podcasts before you.

MerlinNo, I think this is the third time you've asked me and I still don't remember. I remember hearing, I could be remembering this all wrong. My memory is so poor for this particular kind of thing, unless it's not. But I remember hearing Ricky Gervais had a podcast and that lots of people liked it.

Alexis this before he identified as an attack helicopter

Merlinso that was one that was out there let me just get this out of the way so so all i'm trying to say is that like so when i pop up a youtube video and again i don't understand this alex i watch a lot of youtube like watch videos at my desk here on my computer who is called mr buttons i watch videos on mr buttons you're not allowed to laugh at that you haven't seen our flag means death and it breaks my heart have you watched our flag means death do you know

Alexi know i know that there is a character named mr buttons and it's adorable he's the guy from

Merlintrain spotting mr i'm watching a video on mr buttons my recos on here are fine my rec i don't watch much on my phone because who does that but like i i do like add stuff from my phone but i am given to believe that the recos i get anywhere they should be roughly the same kind of thing i imagine except on apple tv my recommendations are so weird and static and wrong they recommend but like it's just strange that like there's this one some kind i've never clicked it it's and

because it's the apple tv and it's more difficult to say stop recommending this channel i do that all the time when i'm using youtube on the web or like i don't like this video or blah blah blah but like stop recommending me angry disney guy videos like but but like it's okay so i get weird recommendations that i'm putting a stick in the ground there um but i do end up as a result like because i'm lazy and i just want to use the four-way i'll just click on something and so often it really is it's somebody reading something and then doing the equivalent of not even a slideshow

like the way the alt shift whoever the guy is that does the game of thrones videos i like the way that guy does game of thrones his videos is like what i wish uh not powerpoint but like keynote or PowerPoint would be, which is like the, have you ever seen that guy's videos?

AlexOh, now I have. He talked about hot D and then I went to his library. It's very good.

MerlinBut isn't it, isn't it kind of neat the way that he does it? And like, you would think like, oh, the guy explaining Game of Thrones and using fuck tons of quotes from the book would be really boring. But like the way that he does it, and then you realize that slide is part of this bigger, like almost not a puzzle, but a landscape. Like, and not even like the way you would look at it in slide view in keynote, but each one of those images, like when he pulls back and then like shows the relationships, like I love stuff like that.

That's so much work. Or again, like my beloved New British Canon guy, that guy puts so much work into his videos. He's obviously editing so much stuff, but, and I understand it's a tough racket, but like you pull up a video and it's somebody.

AlexEverything's a tough racket though.

MerlinBut it sounds like somebody talking into a USB bamboo stalk. And then there's just lots of, like, they're using some kind of a gamer thing. And I'm trying to think of an example, you know.

AlexWhat are they doing? Every other podcast. You don't need an example because people know exactly what you're talking about because it is the majority. What? Majority?

MerlinSome guy who probably should take a hit off his inhaler. Like, just. and and then it's a bunch of art like you know the way you can do that in like iMovie we do Ken Burns effect and it makes it seem like something's happening um and and oh you know so for example last night okay so why did I put the stake in the ground about my recos because one thing showed up on that row and I don't know why I clicked this Alex I don't even

want to know like what this says about me but i clicked on the the scavenger's daughter the brutal i'm sorry i'm gonna send it to you i'll send it to you the scavenger's daughter uh i think there's i think there's a colon it's not a colon it's a it's a a dash scavenger's daughter the brutal all caps, Tudor Torture Method.

AlexHmm.

MerlinAnd I clicked on it, and I thought, you know, because there was a time in my life when I thought torture was fun.

AlexOkay.

MerlinNo, you never had a phase, like when you were in middle school, where you wanted to learn about weird tortures?

AlexNo, I was more of a holocauster. Yeah. Oh, I see. My parents got a call because of a diorama.

MerlinYou did a lot of holocaust benefit analysis. and you know or you know like Roland Weary he likes weird ways that people can be killed and I clicked in and watched it and I was like it was okay but it was mainly this woman reading something this woman with an English accent I think this is somebody's special thing Alex is what I'm going to say in a second because she does lots of like it looks like a history video but it's mostly just about torture but it's and so I watched

this one and it does sound horrible. It's this device. You've probably seen one of these before. It's this horrible device that like, it's like a what we in Gitmo would call a stress position. And it's something that Henry VIII did, you know, in the Tower of London would torture people and it sounds miserable. Then I thought, oh fuck. I clicked another one. I watched one on the crimes of Irma Grease, the witch of Auschwitz. Then I watched one called the brutal and sadistic torture of Anne Askew. Now that one, when I flipped that one on, it's her reading and her reading a lot

of other people's stuff and using a lot of the same images and pictures of people on racks that she had used in the scavenger's daughter video. And what I'm saying is, like I say, I understand it's a tough racket, but if you see people doing that kind of stuff over much alongside stuff like stock footage, you know, smiling lady eating a salad type shit. Yes, it's bad. I truly despise it. It makes me really recognize the people who try really hard. Like, you know, that latest CGPGRA video really like.

AlexOh, try that on THCO. Good Lord. It's a delight.

MerlinThe one with the how airport runways work.

AlexThe airport runway video. Did you watch that? Oh, yeah. I've watched it three times.

MerlinIn a good way, I had to turn it off because there's a thing he does that I think he's very funny. at and it's it's a sense of humor thing that i appreciate which is the whole like i'm going to show you how overwhelmed i was in preparing this by now overwhelming you but in a smart way yeah

Alexand he does it's very yeah yeah but i was like i i hope he what if he did the thing and then he did

Merlinthe thing but yeah and like the ocd thing of like the angle of these and like you know it's really based on the north pole and eventually i was like you know hachi machi this is this is a lot um but That's so much work and all. I think he probably has an animation person, right?

AlexOh, yeah. He talks about this on Cortex, which I am now. Oh, we're going to find out if Mike listens. He definitely doesn't. But I'm now caught up.

MerlinOh, by the way, did you get a text from Casey?

AlexNo.

MerlinOh, I did. I'll give you the timestamp. He found it. Hi, Casey.

AlexI was so happy. I was so happy to get a text from Casey that he heard the little canary trap,

Merlinthe little honeypot we put for him.

AlexOh. Ah. I mean, I put a lot of traps for many people. Remember this?

MerlinWe said, nobody tell Casey that we mentioned him.

AlexLet's just see if he finds it.

MerlinAnd then we had a really nice chat. What did he say? He said, oh, we had a lot.

AlexLet's share a private text message.

MerlinI don't have a vibra slap here, but I will just say we talked a lot. He said, I'm going to say three words. So he sent a link to the podcast that you and I do. And he said, good morning, buddy.

but um what was the point of that but you know what it is and i'm gonna make this positive which is i watch a lot of youtube i watched a lot of youtube today when i was creating content and I watched Crucified by Army of Lovers.

AlexCircle that. Pin. There we go. Sorry. Go on. Well, no.

MerlinWell, I'm adopting a new approach in how I think about, first of all, you know I hate the word content. But I was trying to pitch to Syracuse so that I think in my own way I might be a hacker, but I'm a hacker in how I create content and I always have been.

AlexI agree. Both of us, I believe, I was called a content.

MerlinMaybe you'll talk to me about it. He's always yucking on my yum when I told him I was a gentleman podcaster and he said that I'm not, which is fine.

AlexWhat a gentleman podcaster.

MerlinI was saying I wanted, I think that might be my new title, Merlin Mann, Gentleman Podcaster, and he mixed it.

AlexNo, no, no.

MerlinYou don't like it either, okay. But then I was saying I think I might be a hacker, and I'd love to talk about this with you, that hacker idea of, in some ways, this is going to be one of those Merlin definitions or Merlin distinctions that may not be true, but it's still real, is that a big part of that, and here, again, to clarify, just to be clear, I'm not talking about cracking. I'm not talking about like deliberately harmfully screwing with systems, although that kind of mischief is certainly part of it. No, but like a big part of what came to be called hacking, being a hacker, comes down to a really, really basic principle that's applicable in other places.

Is it about computers? Yeah, I guess sometimes. But you know what it's really about? It's really about figuring out how you can use something that was not a way that it was intended. that's what hacking is.

AlexI agree. I think there have been, there has been hacking since the beginning of time. We just created a word for it. And this, this might sound bad. No, it doesn't sound bad if you've heard this show. My dad says many nice things to me, but he said the nicest thing. He gave me the best compliment I think anyone's ever given me lately. It's like, you know what? I might be a civil engineer, but you're a social engineer. And I was like, well, that's dark, but also very accurate. Thank you.

MerlinWait, social engineer in the sense of social engineering?

AlexWell, I think not.

MerlinI think that's not what he meant. Well, social engineering being the thing where you use human foibles to penetrate systems, right? The Matt Honan thing. That's usually what – when people say social engineering in that context, right, they usually mean like I get enough information from Amazon to then go talk to Apple. And then with that information from Apple, you know.

AlexNot necessarily. Not necessarily. It's using systems.

MerlinSocial media engineers.

AlexNo, no, no. It is using systems that are set in place and just manipulating them to, based on the social mores, to break through and to get what you want. So basically, he was calling me a manipulative bitch.

MerlinI thought it was like when you called the CEO and said, change your password.

AlexWell, yeah. I mean, that is part of social engineering. Like, the people who call and say-

MerlinIt's avoiding the wetware component of a computer system in particular, right?

AlexI mean, but what makes it a computer system and not just a system? Like social engineering doesn't have to necessarily mean anything. Why?

MerlinWell, it's a computer system because I'm unable to type your password because I don't know it. If I know what your password is through social engineering, then I can get into the computer that I'm not at.

AlexCorrect. But you can also engineer a way to get the current big scam out there, which is very good, is people mass texting people saying, hey, it's your boss or it's your manager. I'm trying to get a gift together for some of our clients. Can you go out and get me some gift cards? And I need it to happen really quick. So can you just give me the numbers for those gift cards? And you're never on the phone. It's just a text. And if it says something like your manager or the CEO and it specifically says, sorry, this is a weird number and they make it sound like an urgent thing, like I would have 100 percent fallen for that, especially because I would get real requests like that.

MerlinBut I think that's part of – I mean one thing I always talk about with my kid is that the con in confidence is getting the person – well, again, silence of the lambs. It's like how do you get a size 14 senator's daughter in your van? Practice, practice, practice. Or rehearsal, as you say. No, the way you get the senator's daughter in your van is you make sure she sees you with a cast on your arm struggling to put a couch into, I mean, like, and like farcically unable to do something that you're doing.

And, you know, and it works because the person comes over and wants to help. The con in confidence is that I may ask you a favor. And if I ask you a favor, that's when you have confidence. Right. You know what I mean? I think that's such a because it used to be easier confidence, a con man, a confidence man. And you thought that, oh, that's that's getting somebody to believe a scam. Well, no, it's it's much more subtle than that. The way a con works is, well, you first of all, you can be in a really good one. You watch something like The Sting. Like you're trying to get somebody to kind of think it's their idea.

And the one ripping you off, you know, like the classic one of, hey, I just found this money. You know that one? Like, I just found this wallet with the money in it. We should return it to this person.

AlexIt's the classic Golden Girls bit. Yep, yep, yep.

MerlinClassic Golden Girls bit.

AlexIt is.

MerlinThe other thing, could it also be maybe you're good at social inception? Have you thought of that?

AlexI don't. I think now that he was just calling me a manipulative bitch.

MerlinWhat are you being so oppositional about, Alexandra?

AlexOh, I am not. You're being obvious. Yes, you are.

MerlinYou do that.

AlexOh, really? Tell me more. what do you mean by math is hard

Merlinwhat do I mean inception you make people think it's their idea

Alexoh yes you know what it was definitely Max's idea to send toasters to ATP for review that was Max's idea and I will stick to that story oh no no no I would never say that because I knew that otherwise it would not get done if, say, a random person you had never known.

MerlinHave you been told, have you ever been told that sometimes it's hard to understand what Alex is talking about?

AlexUh-huh. What do you mean by, what do you mean you're a hacker and not necessarily with, like, in everything you do, you're a hacker? Which I would agree with, but what does that mean to you? Because I'm oppositional today.

MerlinOh, that's okay. Well, I don't know.

AlexYou're in a good mood.

MerlinWell, no, I'm in a great mood. I was about to say, I mean, like, I'm like, let's, can we go back to a few weeks ago when we were talking about, you know, whenever it was we were talking about Web 2.0 and blogs and that period of like, and the Maria Bamford thing, remember that idea of like, hey, here's a thing I made. You can have it. Merlin, the John Jouid, the horseback militia. Can't stand up. Thank you. I see you have watched that once. Burton Blossie.

AlexYou can hear him snoring. Watch it once a year around Christmas time. It's in my Christmas playlist rotation.

MerlinPretty good at Tiger. But the concept of, well, I think one sort of eye-rolling way to put this.

I'm eye-rolling at my eye-rolling. The sort of like what the Burning Man people call the gift economy. But I love that. Well, I don't know if I love that in the context of Burning Man because that all seems like a rich man jam up title.

AlexBut I still want to go one time. Take me to Burning Man. All right. Sorry. I just I'm curious.

MerlinIf I could go in an RV and just be inside reading, I'd be into it.

AlexExactly. No, that's the thing. You just put up the on the windows. You just use the God, I forget the magician's trick. But it looks as if there's this 3D set of this old camper and there's just a bunch of dirty things. But inside-

MerlinOh, you mean like a Wile E. Coyote?

AlexYes. Like Trump loyal tunnel kind of thing? Mm-hmm.

MerlinMm-hmm.

AlexTroy, believe. No, you don't have to believe. But then inside you have your good Wi-Fi, probably better than what's at my apartment.

MerlinProbably a Nintendo Switch, some seltzer water.

AlexOh, absolutely. It's going to show up on the waveforms. And I don't know.

MerlinBut I'm just using that term. I don't really know exactly what it means. But in that context, I think gift economy means like you don't take money for things or offer money for things.

AlexCorrect.

MerlinBut what I'm saying is like this idea of like this is – I don't know. I'm self-conscious saying things like this. But like you know what? Here's a thing that I made. It may not be for you. I hope it's for you. If it's not for you, that's okay. But it's for somebody. And it's just a thing I made. And that's almost the start of almost anything I've ever done. It's like, here's a thing I did because I like making things. And it entertained me to make it.

And I think it's hopefully funny in a lot of cases. But anyhow. So the other night, I don't know. Oh, you know what it was? I wanted a way to promote the Roderick on the line Patreon thing, but being how I am, I wanted to be in my way. Like, you know, not in the like stupid fucking boneheaded like professionalization way where you say stuff like it really helps the show. So I made an ad for Roderick, a fake ad for Roderick on the line in our last episode.

And of course, I used Descript and did the Don LaFontaine overdub voice, which is endlessly – I can't believe my kid is not crazy into this. You just type things and it takes a minute for it to grok it, but then it turns it into pretty plausible speech. and for each one of the overdub voices in Descript, I don't know if you spent much time with this, but there's like probably eight or more voices and each voice has different styles.

So you know who I mean when I say Don LaFontaine, right?

AlexMm-hmm, R.I.P.

MerlinYeah, probably there's that wonderful video offline for the notes of all the famous voice actor guys getting in a limo together. Did you ever see that?

AlexYeah, I have a picture of me just in the background that I posted on Twitter.

MerlinBut like, you know, the guy who does the, you know, beloved characters, Disney voice and all that. But Don LaFontaine was the granddaddy of all those. And there is at least an article, maybe a podcast, possibly a documentary about him, about how he actually does have a limo and would just tool around in the days before.

AlexOh, really?

MerlinHe would just tool around. What's that?

AlexThat's awesome.

MerlinHe would just tool around Manhattan going from gig to gig. And there's three. Go ahead. In three words, give me Don LaFonte.

AlexFun? Oh, I don't know. Oh, well. That's him.

MerlinThat's Don LaFonte. In a world. In a world. One man. There's other people who do it, but he was the king of that stuff. And Descript made an overdub fake voice that sounds so, to my ear anyway, sounds so much like him.

AlexQuinn, I'm going to put in the – I'll drop in the audio of the most recent thing Merlin did because it genuinely sounds so much like him that I didn't – it's so good.

MerlinWell, don't do it yet. Are you going to drop in the fake voicemail?

AlexWhichever one you want. Yes. It's so good.

MerlinI think the voicemail is funnier. But anyway, and I was just playing with – because, like, so what I did was I made a fake ad for Roderick on the line encouraging people to consider supporting us on Patreon. and I use that as like unlike most ads it's pretty short and doesn't have words I don't understand in it or constructions that nobody's ever read out loud mine was written to be heard unlike a lot of ad copy it's not a problem I'm not angry about it

it's not something I've asked people many many times to please improve it's not like I've had to keep asking people to please put in the pronunciation for what this It's not like I've gotten on Slack with people and said, I would like to have a FaceTime call and hear you read this to me. I would like to hear you attempt to read this. It really helps people discover the show. But then the funny one, I was just dicking around with it. And I was watching TV and dicking around. And that's when I made this idea of like, you know, because I'm, this is so lysergic. But I did this bit, which is like, it's a combination of MSNBC commercials and every automotive warranty voicemail that you get.

And it started as a brainstorming with Billy, where we were both like, we should, I was like, kid, I don't know why you don't play with this more. This is so cool. And I paused and I said, you know, you could commit a lot of fraud with this.

AlexOh, absolutely.

MerlinAnd he goes, I'm listening. And I'm like, well, you could make one of those. You don't get this because you don't use your phone at all. But you get these, even with Call Protect on, like I still get the occasional like all the voicemail. I'll just look at the voicemail. And if anywhere I see to be removed from this list, you know, touch one. But what I like was this fucking, I made this fucking lysergic meltdown.

So it started out while we had was the first line. This is a call from the government. Because that's what it feels like when MSNBC has those ads that are like, you know, Medicare Part B for a limited time. Even if you called last year, find out if you can do this in your zip code. And so I made this weird voicemail, fake voicemail meltdown that almost no one would think is funny. Because in my typical hat on a hat way, it's not one thing about one thing. It's a thing about the overwhelming, if I can explain my joke.

It's a thing about the overwhelming feeling of not knowing what is real and who to trust from the communications in your life and the various ways that there's been an escalation in trying to take away our attention to be somewhere else. And it works. It worked on my grandmother. My grandmother lived long enough into her Alzheimer years to get the thing where you get an envelope, but it is red, white and blue. It looks like it's from FedEx or you get the thing that looks like it's from, you know, the IRS or whatever.

Right. You get those fake looking things. And it's like. So anyway, here it is.

Speaker AThis is a call from the government. As the owner of this device, you are legally ordered by law to listen to a special offer that may be available in your zip code. This is not a social call or a fake call. This is a real call. The government has tried repeatedly to ensure you comply with all communications and save 15% or more right now, regardless of previous credit problems or discharged annuity warrantors. This call is real. Get your head out of your ass, buttercup, because it's time to straighten up and get unfucked. What are you even paying for? This offer extends to all veterans and their families indefinitely.

there is no solution even if you try but you will not be removed from this special offer better still order two and just pay a separate fee no you listen tough guy you put me on your does not take shit list up to a value of one hundred thousand dollars even if you called last year this does not create a bailment terms and conditions apply no motorcycles after 3 p.m this

Merlincall is real and i don't know who that's for or why i made it but it's fun and i was just thinking I says to my wife, I says, you know, I think I might be, I'm not trying to cover myself with glory, but just to say, I think my whole life I've been a hacker, partly out of the innate curiosity of youth and partly out of a certain kind of, not scarcity, but, you know, we now live in a world where you could get a notebook before you've learned how to write, even before you've

learn how to form letters you can say mommy can i have a moleskin you can like how many of you know that there's an entire recording studio on your phone and your ipad and and would have surprised you to know that i have been paid money by people to create things that were over 90 percent created on an iphone or an ipad like you have all the tools you need to make anything you want right and like sometimes you don't have this when i was a kid we had a little zenith cassette recorder

and i would interview my dad for my fake radio show and and then when i got to be in high school and play instruments i i i i don't want to say i thought i invented this but i was the first person i ever knew of who made mixes using the pause button to try and do the equivalent of beat mixing putting songs together or before i ever had even like i never in a million years thought i would have access to even a four track let alone a studio but i would record something on my boom box

and then record that along with a new recording onto a second cassette player doing the equivalent of what we would now call bouncing but i i feel like what i guess what i'm saying is it's not again it's not about me it's about everybody is i think it it could be a form of hacking to find a way to use something in the way that not the way that it was intended and like i said to syracuse another example would be mythic quest and is it time time to penis is that their metric tell people what

time tell people and apparently it's a thing right it is a i think rob has said that it is actually a

Alexreal thing in video companies yeah tell people what time to penises this well more and more of Oh, God, I'm going to do the thing.

MerlinWell, no, just to clarify, it's the amount of time it will take before somebody figures out how to draw a dick in a game.

AlexI would say that the majority of our 15 listeners will know exactly what that means and does not need clarification because the whole—

MerlinWell, I didn't know it until Mythic Quest.

AlexWell, that's because you're on the cutting edge.

MerlinI didn't even know what a dinner party was. Dinner party.

Alexdid i i i don't know how much of a tiktok connoisseur you are but so much of it is now just gaming the algorithm and unlike oh really but yeah and but but the thing is unlike youtube a lot of folks or at least because of it you know the the algorithm the algo as they say it It shows me at least.

MerlinJust so I know what you're talking about here. We mean algorithm in the sense of, and TikTok is apparently, looks surpassingly good at this, at being able to give you more things that it's pretty sure that you will like. Right? Or that you will like and that you will watch. And this is truly a case of higher engagement because they're giving you what it is that you'll be curious to click on. Right?

AlexMm-hmm.

MerlinI'm sorry. I don't mean to be the dumb guy here, but when we say algorithm, it's not just to serve you ads. it's to like keep your your time on device like using it um right like and apparently it's good

Alexthey're great at it oh it's it's upsettingly good and you said click on well no no no you because it's just an infinite scroll well yeah exactly because you have just done an infinite

Merlinscroll my kid shows me something i'm i i it's almost like using whatsapp or something i'm like what are you doing first of all my kid keeps the brightness of their phone so low i'm like i can't see anything. It looks like you're showing me a smudgy motion. I can't tell what is happening. But it'd be like, oh, here's the cat eating the burger. And like, go down and up and flip, flip, flip. And like, yeah.

I'm sorry, you were saying algorithm. And your key captures. That's nice, too.

AlexOh, did I listen to, oh, Pin. There was, sometimes I listen to The Daily. I'm sorry. There's a really good episode today. about the store anyway yeah sorry i see what you did there i okay all right well tiktok now uh has decided to serve me at least a lot of videos from people who are trying to subvert the algorithm in that a lot of stuff on tiktok is suppressed i see what you're saying yeah yeah yeah like the

the gay shit the mental health shit like all the things that are not appealing to advertisers And the way that folks get around it is now it becomes obvious. Like instead of sex, there's people say or write in the captions S-E-G-G-S. And then it just became egg time for fucking. And it just slowly morphs into this new lexicon that is constantly, constantly changing.

But there are people at the forefront of that. And it's really sad because what. But they're not doing it for a fun reason.

MerlinThey're doing it for like an SEO style reason.

AlexYes. Which is really a bummer because I'm like, oh, that's clever. And then I'm like, oh, this is not original.

MerlinYou're making so many of the points I was struggling to make really well, which is that's the opposite of what I don't want to call it gift economy. But here I made a thing thing.

AlexYeah.

MerlinLike when you are professionalizing or when you're like, I don't know, it's more like the music manization of something. Like fake trombones for a fake band, you know?

AlexIt is. I disagree. That is.

MerlinWe got an algorithm right here in River City.

AlexThat is the creator. Springfield. Rockfield.

MerlinI miss the time when you could have a thing where, like Rex Harrison or, you know, Robert, what's his head in the music? They could basically just be in a musical where they talk like this in a rhythmic way. In a what? In a what? In a rhythmic way. You didn't really sing. Rex Harrison doesn't really sing.

AlexWell, but the other difference between TikTok and YouTube.

MerlinI love the music man.

AlexI'm impressed.

MerlinI listened to it so much as a kid.

AlexI did the thing where I didn't know the music man existed until I had seen a last train out of Springfield because, yep, didn't know the Flintstones before the Simpsons and that person.

MerlinIt's like a mule with a spinning wheel. Some people say a town with money is like a mule with a spinning wheel. Nobody knows how he got it or what he's going to do with it. Well, but I know you're making that point so well. Okay, so I'm putting this in notes. Michael Barbaro, The Daily on TikTok.

AlexOh, The Daily. This was actually a New York Times story. They did something well. Sorry. They just did a story about how companies are tracking. I feel like there's one person at the New York Times.

MerlinI've had this one person, and it's like some Ben Shapiro, Matt Gaetz, piece of shit guy.

AlexIt's a fucking jerk.

MerlinSomebody's fail son or somebody who saved a kitten from a tree. I feel like there's one person in the New York Times who's like, oh, how can – they're like the opposite of an ombudsman. Like somebody who just comes in and like, ah, can't we fuck this up and make the right wing look good by proxy? Like, argh. Like, what is it? What are they doing there? What are they doing?

AlexI have a feeling it's because the – I mean there's – I try to not be a cynic.

MerlinThere you go. I do too.

AlexI try so hard. I mean there you go. Like if you want to read the problematic piece about how women are being suppressed for some reason.

MerlinWhat was the latest one in passing?

AlexI literally can't remember because.

MerlinBut there was one where they were using lots of scare quotes. And there's one recently that was shit. I don't remember what it was about. But there's another one of those like how did this get through editorial? This is so crazy.

AlexBecause it gets so much attention.

MerlinBecause. And what did we learn from Molly Haberman? And what did we learn from Peter Baker? And what do we learn from that slightly spectrum-y guy who's Nicole Wallace's boyfriend now? The guy who always does his remotes in a fleece in front of an empty bookshelf. That guy? What's his name?

AlexOh, yeah.

MerlinI don't remember his name. Mike Nicole Wallace's boyfriend. But what do we learn? Well, what I learned is that they're part of their job. Yeah, it's telling us something that happened. But it is also in a larger sense to just constantly keep us off balance. That's what they do.

AlexYeah, you must continue to court the great lady because you must be wrong and confused. But then, I mean, that is the sort of thing that funds stuff, like a story about how more and more companies are monitoring their workers based on their keystrokes. and oh god it's like it's all those things that you you know that some people are going to put on twitter like it's 1984. Scare pieces

Merlinand my favorite is

Alexthe trend pieces

Merlintrend pieces also. What's it called what's the quitting we're all doing now? soft quitting? What's it called? Oh yeah

Alexthe soft quitting quiet quitting there we go. Which I had not heard until two days

Merlinago and now it's something everyone is very concerned about. I bet Malcolm You know what? I bet Malcolm Gladwell has some things to say about cool quitting.

AlexIt's going to be, it turns out. I thought that quiet quitting was a bit until this week when it.

MerlinIt's called having boundaries.

AlexYeah. But I don't even want to talk about it because it's just so fucking dumb. It's so dumb.

MerlinIt's like, you know, remember rainbow parties or like razor blades and candy? It's going to be another one of those things that like, and just now it seems real. You know what I mean? because we're looking at it. We've made it real.

AlexIt's worse than a moral panic. It's like a management panic. It's just weird and dumb and I don't know. But this New York Times story actually had original reporting which, you know, the weird racist pieces are what fund the original reporting. Are you dragging me?

MerlinAre you calling me out? Is that what you're doing?

AlexIs this calling out? Haven't we talked about calling

Merlinout culture? I thought we weren't going to do that anymore.

AlexThat's Kiwi Farms. is that where you get your THCO? no no I don't even want to talk about Kiwi Farm

Merlinare you talking about the fruits or the birds?

Alexno Kiwi Farms is this forum that is very much like 4chan and they love doxing people is it in New Zealand? honestly I think there is some reference to that it's like talking about Elon Musk It just summons them.

MerlinI don't think people from New Zealand would do that. That's what Alex Jones would call a false flag operation. Okay, so I got two things and then we can get back to the real show.

AlexOh, I want to hear about your content.

MerlinOh, no. Well, anyway, the point was just that I was really struggling with this because, of course, I think in some ways people in technology are almost like our new clerics, our new clergy people. Like you can't say anything is like a technology thing because, you know, it's almost like dealing with fucking doctors. So talking to John Syracuse about this is probably a bad idea. But I was just thinking about the ways that we, or that term, in the original, you know, sense of this by Danny O'Brien, life hacks.

The idea was that, and I think this is the part that gets missed, much like the Hussein and Barack Hussein Obama. It's really important. But like the thing in life hacks that makes it a hack is it's almost always really inelegant. But there's something that you need to take care of. And so you you the hack for it becomes like a non elegant, not usually non permanent solution that like helps you do a thing. Like you're not going to write a whole in this case.

You're not going to go write some big whole program for this, but you might write a shell script that would do this thing for you. I think that's what Danny was talking about. And then, of course, we apply that to other things. And eventually, life hacks became what, when I was a kid, would be called a household hint. Like the hints from Heloise kind of thing about, like, you know, how to keep your apples from turning brown. Well, now that's a life hack. But the hacking part of it, if you would allow me the temerity to take it beyond seasoned technologists, is that when you use something in the way – and just to be clear here also, when we do talk about hackers, well, a big part of being a computer hacker, when we say you're using it in a way it was not intended.

The most basic way in some ways we can understand that is to say you created this, let's say, computer program. Like you created this web app or this whatever. And like you intended it to be used this way, inspected to be used this way. And you did insufficient QA, QC and target hardening to make it something that people could fuck with. And so I'm going to use this. I'm going to show you how this could be used in a way you didn't intend. that could be a man in the middle attack or cross-site scripting.

Or it could be, again, like you put too many characters in this field and it breaks. And you're like, well, that's cheating. You're not supposed to do that. No, I'm not cheating. I'm using your app. I'm just not using it in the way you expected. So if you're doing pen testing or you're doing any of that kind of stuff, part of it is going like, I need somebody in here who may, I mean, my understanding of it is you bring somebody in who knows this stuff. And it's not a script kitty. It's not somebody who's just going to come in and run six things that they have on a thumb drive to see what happens.

It's somebody who can come in and like in a holistic way, look at how your design document and finished product will, to paraphrase that German guy from the 1800s, won't survive contact with the enemy. But I think then there's other ways. And I feel embarrassed to say this, but like, you know, when we use stuff in a way that it wasn't intended, we are being on the most basic level, we are doing something creative. Yes. In the Arthur Kessler sense of like, these are two matrices that were clashing together and creating, well, in his case, you know, comedy or tragedy.

But like when these two matrices slam together, these two like planes, something unusual happens. So, you know, that's why a joke is creative. A joke is creative because what is a joke? A joke is a thing where there's the part you understand, the other part you understand, and then something very unusual happens that makes you rethink what the first two parts mean. That's creative. Creative is like when you're doing something, and that's why it's a bummer that that word, well, first of all, it's a bummer. It's been turned into a noun that we should just burn with fire. But being creative or in the acer, Spanish sense, make and do, making and doing creative is about doing – it doesn't have to be novel, but doing something, having it work differently than it was supposed to work.

And I don't know if that's technically hacking. But when I was coming up, I always loved first figuring out the thing I could do. Everybody does this, right? Every little kid. The first person who ever figured out, I don't know, I can't do this in my head, but when you type this on a calculator, it looks like boobs.

There were books you could buy in the 70s and 80s about how to make your calculator say words. And all you're doing is typing those LCD letters, but when you look at it upside down, it looks like a word. It's not crazy creative, but it's creative. It's funny. And weren't you like that? It's fun. But the first thing I always wanted to do was like find in like the same way today. I look at a sign that's worded wrong or punctuated poorly or I try to figure out what I can do with this thing that's fucked up.

I think every kid, every little kid does that and then we stop doing it as we get older. And we wonder why we're not creative and buying a notebook didn't make it better. No, I think it is true.

AlexYes.

MerlinI mean, it is true. I think people think creativity means art and creativity really means just fucking shit up.

AlexI agree. I guess that makes me a creative. I am a creative.

MerlinMy poetry teacher said that I think of this like thought leader, the word thought leader, like, you know, first of all, he would say, well, what we're talking about here is verse. It's the world that will decide whether you are a poet. You are writing verse. And I think the same is true here. Whether or not you are, I'm not going to use the noun, but whether or not you are a creative person is, I mean, who cares? Like, are you doing creative things? Are you making, and you know, part of this, I got to say, just today, just as we're recording this, I didn't realize I was thinking about this.

I'm thinking about that Kurt Vonnegut letter that was going around last night.

AlexOh, so good.

MerlinI kind of want to read it. Maybe I'll have Don LaFontaine read it. But I'm thinking about that.

AlexNo, kicking the jokes out. You should read it, Merlin Man.

MerlinOkay. I will. I will. But to me, what I'm getting at is that really dumb thing I do where I like to go into Descript and make Don LaFontaine say things. Is that super creative? I don't know. And I don't really care. I know I made myself laugh by using this in a way that it wasn't intended. And that's funny. Do you remember when I very first got Descript? You won't remember this. But when I very first got the script, the thing that I did for like a week or two, because, you know, it's got transcription, you bring in stuff and you can find text.

So one of the first things I did was these like weird super cuts of blank check bits. Like every time in these episodes that David goes, oh boy. Or I did one that was every time one of the McElroy brothers used the word boy in any of their best of episodes. I did that one that I love, which is just a collection of mouth noises and funny sounds from the earliest show with John Raffio and the comedian I like. Because it made it so easy to do. You can just go in and find things. Now, today, I use that in my actual quote-unquote work to do show notes.

And it's like I love that I can find things. But that was – I always want to like find what's the funny thing I could do with this that would entertain me. Like what's the class clown bullshit that I could do with this, you know? And I think you are creative. I mean, but like as we get older and as we become adults, like we – this is actually the latest line in the wisdom thing that I haven't expanded on yet is the way that little kids are – children are unintentionally curious. They don't know that they're curious, but they are.

And so they will do shit like – what's the most basic thing? I wonder what would happen if I put a – tried to flush a stuffed animal down the toilet. That's creative in its way. Because you're trying to do something that's outside the specs for this particular device. That's not what you do with the stuffed animal. That's certainly not what you do with the turtlete. But like that, as kids get older, they don't know that they're curious. But they're discovering the world. They're synthesizing information. And they're occasionally making connections. And those kinds of connections are extremely creative.

Y'all are old. You're fucking old. And like you look down your nose and like because creativity is art. Like, don't say you're creative. Who do you think you are? Da Vinci. Well, no. But like if you like when you go to the sushi restaurant and you fold your chopstick holder into a chopstick, you know, your little sleeve, make it into a holder or you make your you make the sleeve from your straw into a worm like I would always do. Like, you know, those kinds of things. That's a kind of creativity.

It might be sort of an Amelie level creativity, but it is a creativity. And I only mention it because when kids do it, we think it's delightful. And when adults do it, we say get a job. Because if you're not making professional art and selling it, and if you haven't gotten reviews about things, you're not allowed to think about your work as creative. Well, that's a goddamn shame because there's a role for creativity in every fucking job. It's just not the kind of creativity that you've been bred to believe is the real creativity.

AlexI'm going to do the thing where I waited for you to finish. Oh, that's good, Merlin.

MerlinTell me more, Merlin.

AlexThat's very good. Well, I think it goes way beyond work. And the reason that most adults aren't as creative is because they revert to the default. No, what is it? They don't reject the default.

MerlinWe'll bring in a friend of the show, Kieran Healy, to talk about this reversion to the mean. Things tend to go back to a certain homeostatic sort of level.

Alexbut a lot of folks can't do that and i'll fulfill my obligation and say especially trans folks like the all the moral panic around puberty blockers they weren't puberty blockers they for kids who had like this weird it was what was it was called like precocious puberty or

Merlinprecocious puberty that's one of those words that's one of those things like and you know what happens if you have a baby over 40 you know what that's called it's called a geriatric It's like, oh, man.

AlexNo, it's not. Really? It's like 30.

MerlinNo, it's a term.

AlexThat's what we call you. Well, and two, like.

MerlinActually, I've diagnosed your condition and you're an insufferable fuckwad. Wait, is that really what it's called? Yes. You're a fuckwad. And you are. Yes.

AlexBut even the. OK. All right. I'll go away from that hot buttony thing. Be like, OK. Well, it does.

MerlinI got the Vonnagat letter. I'm going to read it when you tell me to. Go ahead. Keep going.

AlexWell, like gender affirming surgery, which used to be called a sex change. Like that did not exist because, oh, we're going to profit off trans people. Like, no, no, no. It was just people wanted to. I heard that's why we do abortions. Yeah.

MerlinThat lady with the round glasses who used to be at Vice, she always goes out and interviews the ding-a-lings. Like her and Donia Sullivan are always out there talking to the chuds. And she's sitting there with this woman having a one-on-one conversation. conversation. She's like, so you know I'm talking about the woman that did the famous like, oh, remember the one with the braid and the round glasses that did all the interviews at Charlottesville at the... Yes! Okay, yes. Yeah, I think she's at CNN now. She still looks 12. But she's like saying to the person like, so, and not being mean, but just like you really think that this is an

industry that like they're making money from, you know, all they care about is making money from abortions and like mining the organs and the woman's like, yeah, what I heard. That's how people

Alexfucking think now well and it's just like a lot of women who wanted to be hotter and wanted bigger boobs and like they they just made it cheaper for a lot of people to get boobs who wanted it and it's like i was like no no no no and the oh god in the amount of time that the past two years how much more expensive those surgeries have gotten because uh because the because of demand well

MerlinNo, I'm asking. I'm asking. Why?

AlexNo, no, no, no. Because doctors need to charge more. Because they can't make as much on abortions now. No, because I went on a little rant on Twitter and then immediately deleted it. But because malpractice insurance won't cover a lot of plastic surgeons now or it is way more expensive because they're afraid of getting sued.

MerlinBecause it didn't turn out well? or that's so is there a higher incidence of malpractice suits in plastic surgery in elective

Alexplastic surgery uh no it is because parents try to sue the doctors but by parents i don't mean parents of minors i mean parents of like 25 plus but that still costs a shit ton to take someone because they'd say like oh this this doctor brainwashed my child into paying for surgery and and so you know you still take the hospital to court and like do do all the thing and like because it's when people say my child it usually means a someone who was 18 and left and left the

house immediately because it sucked and then got surgery and then then the parents try to sue the doctor even though there's they literally have no claim to anything and they're the same people

MerlinPeople put those kitty litter boxes in the ladies' room at the high school.

AlexYep, yep, yep, yep. And then the cases get thrown out.

MerlinAnd the men with a dress who come in just to ogle people in the bathroom. Yes.

AlexOh, oh, oh.

MerlinPlaying volleyball.

AlexOh, God. Writing folk songs.

MerlinJesus Christ.

AlexWho do I sue? So to get around that now. I would have sued somebody so bad. I would never endorse people getting hormones from other places. No one would do this. But now, because there are a lot of folks who get, like how people are already getting abortions, people are getting hormones from other places. Because, again, there's some social engineering going around.

MerlinYou're only allowed to get hormones in the event of rape or incest.

AlexYes. Yes. Merlin, please read me the Kurt Vonnegut. Do you know what we're going to do after this? Because we'll both cry after this. Oh, no.

MerlinThat's a good idea. That's a good idea. This purports to be a letter from Kurt Vonnegut. It's free of context. It's a little bit Rex Chapman, but bear with me.

AlexNo, it's not. No, no.

MerlinWell, no, but the posting of it is. This purports to be a letter from Kurt Vonnegut dated November 5, 2006. And I haven't seen the letter to which he is responding, But it's addressed to Dear Xavier High School, Ms. Lockwood, Missers, Perrin, McFeely, Batten, Marr, and Conglusta. So I'm guessing it's a classroom and teachers, right? So just the context for this is apparently something like a high school, like wrote to Kerr Vonnegut about, you know, being creative, sort of, on making stuff, if you like.

Ready? God, I love this guy. Okay, Kerr Vonnegut. I thank you for your friendly letters. You sure know how to cheer up a really old geezer, 84, in his sunset years. I don't make public appearances anymore because now I resemble nothing so much as an iguana. What I had to say to you, Marover, would not take long. To wit, practice any art, music, singing, dancing, acting, drawing, painting, sculpting, poetry, fiction, essays, reportage, no matter how well or badly.

Not to get money and fame, but to experience becoming. To find out what's inside you to make your soul grow. And that's underlined. Seriously. I mean, starting right now, do art and do it for the rest of your lives. Draw a funny or nice picture of Ms. Lockwood and give it to her. Dance home after school and sing in the shower and on and on. Make a face in your mashed potatoes. Pretend you're Count Dracula. Here's an assignment for tonight, and I hope Ms. Lockwood will flunk you if you don't do it. Write a six-line poem about anything but rhymed, underlined.

No fair tennis without a net. Make it as good as you possibly can, but don't tell anybody what you're doing. Don't show it or recite it to anybody, not even your girlfriend or parents or whatever or Ms. Lockwood, okay? Last paragraph. Tear it up into teeny weeny pieces and discard them into widely separated trash receptacles. You will find that you have already been gloriously rewarded for your poem. You have experienced becoming, learned a lot more about what's inside you, and you have made your soul grow.

God bless you all, Kurt Vonnegut.

AlexI return, no.

MerlinI mean and the reason I was referencing this is like I think it's totally understandable especially if you're a sort of cynical person who doesn't make things to look at that and go yeah I mean like even me like like like the the the rebounding from 43 folders me would go like well you know buying a notebook doesn't make you a writer and buying a brush doesn't make you a painter but at the same time you can you can choose to to live creatively you can choose to look at the world as something that you get to fuck up in your own way.

It's on you to figure out what you're going to do with that, what it will be. But there's so much in this letter that I love. Not least, I love the idea that anybody out there who's sitting around, this is 2006, so people were already making content. Do you really want to make content or do you want to change the world? And maybe start by changing your world. Maybe you should be Count Dracula today and don't tell anybody. Like that's discover that you are capable of doing something differently from the thing that makes you feel like a responsible adult. You can, nobody even has to know about it. Um, it could be late in life. It could be on a bad day, but you have the opportunity to see the world differently and to conduct yourself differently.

and even if nobody ever knows and you don't buy a beret you are creative and you are becoming I need you a picture of himself inside it

AlexDick Doug Ha ha ha ha

MerlinOh, hey, you know what? Guess what? It's that time again. Well, we got to do the challenge, but also guess what?

AlexOh, yep, yep, yep.

MerlinI need a top off on my iced tea. Do you want to talk to the, what's this called? What's the segment called, Alex?

AlexOh, how about, can I suggest? Can I suggest? Talk about her.

MerlinWell, there's a certain style of like an album that you could buy, a record in like the 60s and 70s. And it would be called something like, Ronald Reagan talks to youths about heroin or something. Could this segment be something like, I don't know, you call it, you know, Alex Cox talks to young people about life.

Is that too much pressure? Do you have any mashed potatoes you could draw in?

AlexNo, no, no. I hate that. I love mashed potatoes. Oh, God. Okay. Go, go, go. Do the thing.

MerlinOkay, stand by.

AlexHey, Aparapals. So I read this book from Penn and Teller about how to play with your food. And it is very similar to the things that Kurt Vonnegut and Merlin just said. But I hate playing with my food. And a surprising amount of that book, even though it is about like creativity and doing things just that go against the mean. If you've ever played with your food, it's gross. Like as a kid, that was sort of my like, I always wanted to get into a food fight.

Like that's my dream. And then I had to start like eating food with my hands because as you grow up, you try different food. And I was like, oh, this is horrible. Why do we have finger foods? We have tools. This is the one thing, the one thing that makes us different from the rest of living beings. beings and we're we're eating things with our hands and oh i see that merlin's back would you

Merlinlike to play with your tea um i'm gonna i'm keen to go back and hear how that started

Alexthis is this week's challenge was to watch the limited uh series is it fossey verdon or fossey slash Verdon. I don't know how to pronounce the name of this

Merlinshow. My kid had to explain the title. I saw it on the TV, the Kevin Bacon show, and it says they them. And kid goes, do you get it? I'm like, get what? It's kind of like a slasher. I was like, I don't get it. Kid goes, they slash them. Oh, are you

Alexreferring to my Twitter bio that I had for...

MerlinI'm referring to the TV show with Kevin Bacon

Alexwhere Kevin Bacon runs

Merlina re-education camp. And then, apparently, spoilers, apparently, some of the kids there. It's a little bit, you know, but I'm a cheerleader type situation, but not fun. Oh, which had Michelle Williams in it. We'll talk about that in a second.

Oh, I have so much to say about Michelle Williams. They slashed them. How clever is that? They slashed them. Fuck you! You get it?

AlexI had that. I got into trouble Did you get to the slash? Yes, I get it. I did. Do you understand that it's a punctuation mark that's slash? Yes. Yes, I understand. It can also mean like cutting somebody with a knife. I got in trouble because we were asked to share our pronouns somewhere. And I wrote out they slash S-L-A-S-L. Fuck everybody. Fuck everybody. I want to be known for one thing.

MerlinThat's probably too long. I know that's too long for a location. That might be too long for a bio.

AlexIt was.

MerlinI have so many good locations I can't use because they're too long.

AlexYeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Okay. Michelle Williams. Oh, my God. Oh, shit.

MerlinSo we watched the assignment this week was to watch the first episode of the Hulu series Fosse Verdon. And it's, I think, eight-part series about the long and complicated and very interesting relationship between Bob Fosse and Gwen Verdon. That's the setup. That's the setup.

AlexI knew very little about Bob Fosse or, oh God, I'm the worst. What's her name? Verdon. Gwen Verdon. Thank you. Thank you. I did watch the first episode of this and I could say things about the filmmaking of it and how some of it's a little hokey. but i was like well like the flashback i'm just like we don't did you get what that flashback

means yes i do but the way it was shot was a little cute spoilers no it was the last good

Merlinmoment he had it was the last that party i think my theory is and i've watched that three times um i think that flashback before he walks out the window i think it's i think he's remembering in his mind that's the last time that everything was mostly working oh i apologize yes i liked that

Alexi taught i i mean the and i guess this isn't really a spoiler like how camera pans and suddenly it's a scene from his past and it's oh my god you didn't love that in the restaurant loved that oh my god i love that like because it's already being meta because the film is meta and like it's uh And all that great.

MerlinYou're like Chili, the elf who cannot love.

AlexIt's a reference on a reference. But I adored the acting and just the story and the writing and all of this. And I asked Merlin, I did not peanut butter because I watched the first episode. Oh, yeah, yeah.

MerlinThis is in-band communications. Yeah, here we go.

AlexYes. Offline, I was like, Merlin, I've watched the first episode and I don't have time to watch the final seven. But I think that this is and the more interesting conversation is about the relationship between these two people and their entire lives. And I got distracted because I'm now watching their movies and the bootlegs of their shows.

MerlinOh, no shit. Oh, you thought. Well, wait.

AlexJust wait.

MerlinBecause you got a third level coming, as you probably know, which is then you get to dig into the blank check series.

AlexYes. Yes. And and it's not in fashion to enjoy Mr. Miranda. But I don't understand this.

MerlinAnd I'm pushing back. I think he's a delight. I know it's a bit. My kid. But again, my kids, again, to reference The Simpsons, I'm literally on Frankie Act right now making you. Bart, you're just like Chili the Elf Who Cannot Love. And I'm going to send it to you every time you're like this.

But no, I don't. But like the episode with him is about all that jazz, which is one of my all time favorite movies.

AlexAnd I've never seen it.

MerlinYeah. Well, so this was, I believe, I have not looked this up. But I believe Lin-Manuel Miranda produced this series. What I do know is I'm pretty sure every episode is directed by, I should know this, Thomas Kincaid. No, he's the painter of light. By his director, the guy who directed Hamilton, right? Didn't he direct all these?

AlexI didn't know that. That makes a lot of sense. Alex, no, he didn't.

MerlinWell, you know what you're going to discover. Well, you know what you're going to discover.

AlexDo you know that he's in it?

MerlinDo you know that he's in it also?

AlexNo, no. no no no you've never seen

MerlinAll That Jazz

AlexI've never seen

Merlinwell this is great because this is all new to you so I can just say it in later episodes because All That Jazz was his second to last movie we don't talk about his last movie but second to last movie was All That Jazz and in that movie they cast the great Roy Scheider who most of us know as the cop from Jaws so he and it's I'm always using this term and I feel like it sounds like I'm being fancy All That Jazz is what we used to call a Romana Clay it's basically a story about actual people but the names and some characterizations have been changed

but it's basically bob fossey made a movie about himself and once you get to the episode where he's arguing with patty chayefsky about this it's really fucking funny but um so in in fossey verdon i want to say maybe episode seven maybe eight probably seven um we finally we get to see the filming of All That Jazz and Lin-Manuel Miranda plays Roy Scheider who in turn in the movie All That Jazz plays the Bob Fosse character who he insists is

called Joe Gideon.

AlexAnd he's really good. I don't know why Joe Gideon is just a fun... But there's a great scene

Merlinwhere they're sitting and Patty Chiesky is having health problems and they're sitting on this bench and Bob's calmed down a lot because of things you'll see along the way. He's sort of slowed his roll a little bit. But he's like, your movie's like something. Your movie's a piece of shit. He's like, it's fine. I'll tell you why your movie's a piece of shit. And they're going back and forth about why this movie is so bad. So let me tell you what your story is. Act one, Bob Fosse falls in love with a young girl. And he goes, Roy Gideon.

He goes, what?

Speaker AHe goes, the character's name is Roy Gideon. He's like, okay, fine.

MerlinRoy Gideon falls in love with a young girl named Ann Reinking. Actually, that's not her name. And this cannot be said enough. First of all, I recommend this to people. I think it's however you feel about musicals. I know some people have a thing about not loving musicals, which I get. But as you've already gotten from this, Alex.

AlexTalk about children, elves that cannot love.

MerlinThat's true. But it really is. It's a fascinating look. If you're interested in stuff like creativity and the foibles of creative persons, boy, this is your jam. Because, you know what? Here's one thing I didn't know. I didn't know they were married. Well, you haven't gotten to this yet. But, you know, they were married the whole time. The whole fucking time. Until he died, they were actually still married.

AlexI mean, well, Maddie was like, you don't know who Bob Fosse is? I'm like, I know who Bob Fosse is.

MerlinIf you've ever seen somebody, you know, in like a tuxedo, like a sexy tuxedo lady with the hands and the bowler hat and gloves and stuff like that, you know Bob Fosse even if you don't know Bob Fosse.

AlexYes. And I mean, I don't want to break from our very premium and exclusive after show. But I think that we'll probably talk about this again next week because I am so balls deep in it now.

MerlinNo, there's no question about it. Well, now this has now become an omnibus project.

AlexOh, yeah. Have you ever seen – okay, let me ask you this.

MerlinHave you seen – so there's – I don't know. I'm all off the dome. Sweet Charity. Have you seen Cabaret?

AlexNo, but I've seen Chicago so many times for so many reasons.

MerlinRight. Which was – oh, boy. Chicago, boy. What a heartbreaker. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Okay, so, I mean, I would say the, forgive my saying, Griffin and David, I think the only unmissable movie is All That Jazz, but Cabaret is very good. Cabaret is very weird. The people at my church got very mad about Cabaret.

AlexOh, so did my, well, like, it obviously wasn't around.

MerlinThat in Greece. That are the two movies where I think we actually had meetings.

AlexThey're like, this new movie, listen, listen, listen.

MerlinThis movie, Grease, is not a thing that you should take your children to. Because the Ron family had gone and had taken their children to this PG-rated movie. Guys, PG used to mean a lot of things. But Grease, yeah, I wouldn't take a Christian seven-year-old to Grease.

AlexI don't.

MerlinI'm probably a Chicago 9. No, Chicago 7. Yeah, but it's about Bob Fosse and Gwynn Verdon. So just to give the taste of Bob Fosse, he's a guy who, as you'll learn, his whole life has been a very gifted dancer who worked really hard. He became a choreographer. He became, I think, at least in industry circles

and in Broadway circles, was very well known for choreography done. I think he did Damn Yankees and stuff like that. But as you'll see in upcoming episodes, he was nothing compared to Gwen Verdon. Like Gwen Verdon is one of those people like, what's an example? Not Louise Brooks, but maybe,

but somebody, oh, you know, here's a good example. There was a singer named Billy Murray. And Billy Murray was one of the first really successful recording artists. He'd been a famous singer, you know, of, you know, ballads and Irish songs and all these things. But when the phonograph came along, he was huge. You couldn't touch Billy Murray. He was the, I don't know, the Taylor Swift kind of of his time. Like, or just whoever it is, you know, at a given time, there's somebody who is at least half an order of magnitude bigger than the second biggest person.

Like, maybe like kind of like Britney Spears was at some time. But like, Gwen Verdon was huge on Broadway. And this becomes such a theme in the show as there's more and more stuff where we learn that stuff happens because of Gwen, not because of Bob. Well, you saw in the first one when he's telling the story about Mrs. Somebody calls him Mr. Verdon.

That's the theme. And we meet – oh, God, Michelle Williams. We meet them when she's in what? Probably her early to mid – well, early to mid-40s, like when that party's happening. Something like that. So she's already had like her career mostly as a dancer and singer.

AlexAnd she's considered like out to, not out to pastor, but like she's.

MerlinNo, she's definitely, I mean, at that time, no, that's the thing, Alex, is like when you go back and Google for the ages of what people were at various times, like a popular one in my community is learning that like Archie Bunker, Carol O'Connor, the guy who played Archie Bunker, when he started playing Archie Bunker, he was like 47. I thought he's my canonical idea of what a man in his 50s looks like like I would be like his late 50s but you know it's you know you hear about these things from a different time and it's like kind of hard to sort of grok but think about another theme that keeps coming up in this they keep encountering all these people over whom she can exercise charm and leverage and whether that's a doctor or a different doctor or somebody else but it's somebody who's like

Miss Verdon, you know, we saw you in this like five times. Because this is the time when you would just go to Broadway shows if you lived in Manhattan. You would just go to Broadway shows the way I would go to movies in the like late 70s. You know what I mean? I don't, you know, Broadway just used to be a bunch of theaters where you'd go and see shows. Everybody saw Camelot. Everybody saw Fiddler on the Roof. Like everybody, multiple, multiple times. There wasn't like a lottery to try and get tickets to Man of La Mancha or whatever, I don't think.

It was just stuff where you walk up that night, you went to dinner, said, hey, you want to go see a show. Right? Don't you think?

AlexNo, yeah.

MerlinPeople saw lots of live Broadway.

AlexIt used to be that way in even fucking Chicago in the early 2000s. It was, oh, God. I'm the person who is nostalgic now. Dear God.

MerlinMy whole context for Broadway today, though, is like in the like even in the not even pre-Wicked. What went on? Rent.

AlexThat's what I'm thinking of.

MerlinLike when people started camping out for tickets, the super fans would try and get I don't even know how the thing works. But there's that little booth where you can get like leftover tickets.

AlexYeah.

MerlinBut, you know, I don't think it was always quite that way. You might have a big.

AlexIt wasn't. No. Even it was like Wicked. Yeah.

MerlinYou have a line around the block for Sweet Charity. at first. Well, that was the movie version. But did you catch that? Insult number one is that Sweet Charity was a Gwen Verdon. The play, the musical comedy Sweet Charity was essentially a Gwen Verdon vehicle.

And it wouldn't be the first time when then Shirley MacLaine plays her in the movie. Before that, Jesus Christ, how many things did Julie Andrews replace somebody in? But stuff like, you know what I mean? You know what I'm talking about? like West Side Story.

There's all these different shows. I think My Fair Lady is kind of a famous one where people, you know, you'd hire some actress and just have Marnie Nixon do the singing. You know what I'm saying?

AlexI mean, which never happens.

MerlinBut the idea that he would direct a movie of Sweet Charity and it was Shirley MacLaine, not Glenn Verdon. But then, of course, she immediately says, hey, look, that was a decision that was made before he was director. but like that's you're getting the context for what's happening here which is bob fossey is a man who is both ascending and falling apart in equal measure both those lines are going way up he gets pretty big for what he is for for a kid who used to tap dance in um sex worker offices

we don't say whorehouses anymore but for a guy who used to he used to dance in prostitute places he got pretty big.

AlexDid she also do that? I got to the scene in the second episode where they meet for the first time.

MerlinI don't want to see the sweat. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

AlexAnd they both did that? Was this a common thing?

MerlinI don't know. I would bet that that's further in probably in the late 40s, early 50s I think is when they got together.

AlexOkay. You can tell if it's a flashback if Bob Fosse has even weirder hair.

MerlinHe always has weird hair.

AlexYeah, it's so bad.

MerlinHis hair is weird in every time, but, you know. And that's part of the thing, though.

AlexI went to look at it, and I'm like, pictures of him, I'm like, was it this bad? Oh, yeah, it was bad. I mean, like, the wigs are bad, but it was still pretty bad.

MerlinYeah, but he more than made up for with outstanding cuffs. He would cuff a pant leg. He would cuff a shirt sleeve.

AlexIt's a tremendous look.

MerlinYou know, Gene, oh my God, my brain is smooth. I almost said Gene Autry, and then I almost said Gene Wilder. I'm trying to say Gene Kelly. What I think Gene Kelly always did was he would wear, I think Fred Astaire might have done this too, but would wear pants that were hemmed a little bit high so you could see his white socks. And that gave you more of a sense. You know what I'm saying? like you were if you were gloves and like white socks like you you know what i mean it highlights

Alexthe ends of your body more that's the gayest thing i've ever heard wait is it yeah i've heard

Merlinfriends with you for a couple years at least so anyhow it's uh you know we're talking about this rather than talking about this but talking around it but like uh oh my goodness i so thoroughly love this and can we talk about uh the the two people the two people i love sam rockwell sam rockwell oh yes please in our house sam rockwell because of my kids sam rockwell and carl urban are

practically deities in our house um sam rockwell because what made him that way sam rockwell well i think i i mean there's a lot of stuff building up to it like him in the greatly underrated Iron Man 2.

He's terrific. He's great in Matchstick Men, Moon. He's so great in everything. But what you know about Sam Rockwell is if that director's smart, they'll find a way to showcase his moves. Sam Rockwell can fucking dance. I don't know how much you've seen of Sam Rockwell dancing, but he's a force of nature. I don't think you'll see him doing much more than a little bit of trying stuff out, tight moves, until actually the last episode, when you finally

get to see Sam Rockwell do some moves. But no, and you know the one that really cemented it, that was Jojo Rabbit, which is another Taika Waititi film against which I will not hear a word.

But I just love him. And there's times watching this where I'm like, I kind of forget that it's Sam Rockwell. He's so good at this role.

AlexBecause he's not as hot.

MerlinBut also just the way that he plays it is like, if I told you about shit that Bob Fosse has done in your life, you would imagine that he's just a fucking monster. You would imagine somebody more like Harvey Weinstein. Well, that's going to take it too far. But you know what I mean? You would imagine somebody who's a monster. But the fact is, no, he's not. He's incredibly low-key, soft-spoken, and very charming. And he's also extremely focused on the work. He's very much like, leave your shit at the door.

We'll do whatever it takes to make this thing good. in a sort of like, I don't know, maybe slightly Kubrick way, like this is not

Alexgoing to be a fun thing for you because we're

Merlinlike in that very first episode where they're talking to the girl about her motivation. You've been on your feet all day. You know, all you're thinking about is couches and park benches and sitting down. But, you know, the fucking, can I just say Michelle

AlexWilliams? Oh my God.

MerlinNothing I say here will get across what it is I'm trying to say about Michelle Williams. And when I say things like she is playing, I think she's about 40, the actress. You'd never guess it with those gams. But like she plays a woman in her early 50s like you've never seen. And she's not doing it with big moves. Her voice changes. But I don't know how she plays Gwen Verdon the way she plays her. But it's one of the most amazing performances I've ever seen. I don't want to overstate it.

But like every, like we're watching this, especially maddened me and i'm just like fucking michelle williams are you seeing this like

Alexeverything she does in this is extraordinary i don't think that you are overselling it like ever since i know she did stuff before this but like watching blue valentine which is one of my favorite and oh that's the super sad one right yeah it's really and the one that um was almost rated it unfortunately it is mostly now known as the one that was almost rated nc 17 because the because she gets head and not instead of her instead of instead of brown bunny

yeah i watched that once and that was more than enough more than enough very upsetting um but But, like, God, the way that she made Shutter Island into a good movie. Like, so brilliant. She really is. And I am, I don't know.

MerlinAnd she's also great in But I'm a Cheerleader, you know? She's so little. She's so little in it.

AlexI always forget that one. She's got that little pixie cut.

MerlinThat's right. Yeah, yeah. Here we're going to take some photos. Yeah, yeah.

AlexI always forget that. Fuck.

MerlinWait, wait, wait. Wait till you see this. Oh, talk about show art. Copy four photos. Because I sent these to the young lordling. um let's see here we go lord man i just usually refer i've heard him as the young my lord the young prince my lord actually it's your grace um did this go through to you look at her look how cute she is oh my gosh god i i'm so glad you turned me on to that movie

Alexwhat a fucking great movie uh which but i'm a cheerleader oh oh yeah it took a while but it's the happiest season would not exist without that movie which i know that you you absolutely adore happiest i don't know what that is but uh it's the movie with um kristen wigg and uh mackenzie williams doing uh wait mackenzie uh uh mackenzie mackenzie uh you're talking about uh uh last night

MerlinThe Soho girl?

AlexYeah. Jojo Rabbit girl? Yeah, yeah.

MerlinMackenzie Crook. No, Mackenzie Phillips. Mackenzie, Elaine Mackenzie.

AlexWait, wait, wait.

MerlinI know this. I can do this. It's, um.

AlexFuck Sandra Neville. Not the podcast episode Sandra Neville. Leave No Trace. Jesus Christ.

MerlinThe girl from Leave No Trace and Jojo Rabbit.

AlexUh, wait. Is she?

MerlinAre you talking about the girl?

AlexNo, wait. Wait, wait.

MerlinMackenzie Crook, if memory serves, is Gareth from The Office. Does that help at all?

AlexNo. Mackenzie Davis. Thank you.

MerlinHe's also in Game of Thrones. He's the first person we ever see warg.

AlexOh, really? He's the first one in wargs. Oh, gosh. Well, Mackenzie Davis became friends with the fuck. I don't remember her name either. But the girl from- We're doing great with this. Just for you listening at home, thank you very much.

MerlinWe are doing really, really well at this. Whatever this is, I don't know what we're doing, but we're fucking great at it.

AlexWe're looking at IMDb.

MerlinI sound like everybody's grandfather who'll die next year. What was the name of that gal? You know that gal. Who was that gal with the head? Remember her? She was in the automobile and I think she had two legs. Oh, come on. You know that gal with the face.

So who am I thinking of? Who's the girl from Jojo Rabbit? Isn't she a Mackenzie? I don't know. Mackenzie Phillips is the one from One Day at a Time with the heroin. Who am I thinking of?

AlexI don't know any of these.

MerlinWhat's it called? The sorry season? The sad season. What's it called? The worrisome season? What's it called? The silly season, I think. No, what's it called? The... Fuck you. Jojo Rabbit Girl. Little Jew Girl. Thomasin McKenzie is who I was thinking of.

AlexThere we go. Oh, hello. Hey, pop quiz.

MerlinWill I hear a word against Jojo Rabbit?

AlexNo, no.

MerlinI will not hear a word against Jojo Rabbit. When Rebel Wilson's passing out the guns, you got Yorkie. You got Yorkie in his outfit. He says, it's paper-like. Oh, my God. I love Yorkie so much.

AlexI have nothing bad to say about Jojo Rabbit. I didn't know people didn't like Jojo Rabbit.

MerlinIt looks good. And I even, last week, I had the German language version of I Want to Hold Your Hand in my head because of that goddamn movie. Come give me Dinah Hand, something like that. Remember at the beginning when he's running?

AlexYes. I don't know. I did not sing the song in my head. How many times have you seen Jojo Rabbit? I've seen it twice. At least six times. Oh, my. You have, you know what? You manage your time extremely well. We have a poster. We have a poster. I love it.

MerlinI love it so much.

AlexIt's very good.

MerlinTaika Waititi is amazing.

AlexIt's like if Wes Anderson still knew how to make good movies. Oh, his Hitler gut?

MerlinI love his Hitler gut, the title. Oh, shit dog. Oh, I'll save it for the after show. I have a very exciting, I'll tell you right now, I have a very exciting news. Guess the next book that my kid is reading.

AlexAre you ready? Infinite Jeffs. I don't know.

MerlinBecause the kid needed a book for, you know, I got to read a book for humanities class. So here's the text that I received whilst we have been recording. Hey, can I borrow Blitzed? Oh, no way! Because we watched a TV show about Nazi drug use. Yes. Restore the fucking dictator to hell.

Speaker AYay!

MerlinI could use some Pervitin right now, if I'm being honest.

Thank you.

301. Class Clown Bullshit

Show notes

Transcript

301. Class Clown Bullshit

Show notes

Transcript

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