110. The Lady Will Have the Diet Plate

Speaker CThis is Do By Friday, a weekly challenge podcast with Merlin Mann, Alex Cox and Max Temkin. This week's challenge, eat out late.

MaxHi Merlin. Hey Max, how's it going buddy? Woo. Good. I was, when I was leaving to come to the office, there was a work truck on my block. for an HVAC company called Ideal Temperature Heating and Cooling.

Speaker AAm I on? Is Jen here? Hi, Merlin. Jen's here. Hi, Jen. How's it going? Great.

MaxWhat a promise. I mean, that is the dream, right, is that you reach the ideal temperature and then you can finally die.

MerlinWell, you know, they entered a real busy market in Chicago, and the big contender, the leading HVAC company was it'll be fine. And they needed to pump it up a little bit and say, no, no, this temperature will be ideal. Now, I would say that my ideal temperature at the home is 68 degrees.

MaxThat's freezing. And I've consulted with Veronica and she does not.

MerlinOh, here we go. Is Jen in the slack? Is Jen in the anti-air conditioning slack?

MaxWell, I've asked Veronica and she does not feel that 68 degrees is a sexist temperature. Oh.

MerlinI'm just going to throw that out.

Speaker AIt absolutely is.

MerlinJen, if you had your druthers, and obviously you do not, what would the temperature of the office be?

Speaker A73.

Merlin73? That's toasty.

Speaker A73

MerlinWhat's your heating bill every month? Spoken by a slender girl My goodness

MaxDo you have a $10,000 gas bill every month? What about us fatties?

Speaker AI don't care Wear a deodorant Figure it out

MaxNo, it's not that We're so moist You're being As you know, since it's 1954 I wear a full wool suit every day Okay? And the temperature 73 is intolerable to me

Speaker AWell, since it's 1953, I have to wear a skirt and tights, which means I'm not wearing pants. And I'm very cold. You know, I have a heater under my desk, and I keep it going all year long. I know. It's on in the winter. Yeah, in the winter and in the summer. That's correct. That's gross. I've got to keep these knees warm.

MaxBut here's the problem. Here's the issue with this. I think 68 is the ideal temperature, but then sometimes you get a little chilly, and you're like, ooh, the ideal temperature would be 75, but then you get too hot. and you turn it down to 66.

MerlinIf only there was something we could put on our body to make us warmer. If only there were means available to humans that could make us warmer by putting on something, I don't know what you'd call it, raiments, I guess.

MaxLike some sort of heated shirt that's advertised to me on Instagram?

MerlinI guess like a cape or a cloak.

Speaker AWhen I watch TV at night when I'm sitting on the couch, I just hold a heating pad.

MerlinOh my God, that's so cute. You're like a little kitty cat.

Speaker AJohn will be like, oh, do you have cramps? Does your back hurt? And I'm like, no, it's cold.

MerlinAnd it's 73

MaxMax do you want to introduce our guest co-host Yeah our guest is returning champion Dubai Friday warrior Jen Bain I think our only returning two-time guest

Speaker AWow what an honor

MaxI mean it's convenient right Because when one of us can't make the show you're right here

Speaker AI mean it's not just convenience A higher compliment's never been paid That's like saying well she's right there

MaxDon't get too excited.

Speaker AYeah.

MaxJenna, where can people find more of your delightful hijinks?

Speaker AI am on Twitter at Jen Dangerous, J-E-N-N, and the word dangerous. And my podcast is Friendshiping, FriendshipingPodcast.com. Nope.

MaxLet's see what's on my little-

Speaker ADo you remember when I was on the show last time and we did a bonus episode and we roasted you for the last seven minutes of the show?

MaxI, nope, don't remember that. Who watched the Top Chef premiere? Me, me, me. New Top Chef. Do you watch Top Chef?

MerlinNope. You don't watch Top Chef at all? She told us in our super secret.

Speaker AI told you last night.

MerlinShe said she has never seen The Top Chef. How would you get through life without watching Top Chef?

Speaker AIt just doesn't grab me. You like food, though? I love food, and it makes me so mad that I can't eat what they're making.

MaxOh, I see. I think you should. But you've never seen an episode of Top Chef?

Speaker AI have seen an episode, but it's just like I've not committed to it.

MaxI see. This is shaping up to be a pretty good season, actually.

Speaker AOh, yeah?

MaxI think so.

Speaker AConsider my appetite whetted.

MaxI like the cast. I think they've been lately. So they used to cast these according to like real reality show formulas. So you would have like a couple of ding-a-lings in there that were like, you know, big southern guys who are like, I work at like the meat shop. And, you know, they go down really quick. It's usually a guy who looks like a thumb.

Speaker AHe's got some kind of Satan goatee on a thumb face. A thumb face?

MerlinI always get the hottest ingredients, I guarantee. I'm here to cook the way I cook. Back home, we like to have a boiled fish ball for dinner. Yeah, but it's funny because the whole reason we started talking about reality TV shows before we even had a podcast, and I don't know if we all agree on this, but the two shows that we watched, well, now we watch Shark Tank too, but back in the day, in the heyday of reality TV, the only two shows my family would watch were Top Chef and Top Dress.

And in both cases, on the one hand, the good part was they made something. Like, they legit, like, made something, whether it's food or a garment. That was really cool. But also, also, also, all of those shows are plagued with at least two ding-a-lings every season on purpose. Somebody who's just a little too colorful.

MaxTop Chef, who are some other ding-a-ling archetypes that you used to have in every season? You would have one loopy vegan woman who would battle the judges about whether her food tasted well.

MerlinYou had to have definitely like impoverished background, single mom, raised by a single mom.

MaxRight. But she but she doesn't quite work in the industry. Right. She's like she like she's like she's like a volunteer chef at her local homeless shelter. Right. But then she always gets thrown through the loop when they have to do like food service for 200 people.

MerlinYeah. Yeah. Never be front of house. And you also get you get there's all kinds. there's like people like we were just rewatching um my daughter likes to just randomly before we even get a chance to touch the remote she likes to pull up an old um uh restaurant wars so so jen in whatever episode it is where there's eight people remaining every season they always have restaurant wars where it splits into two teams and implausibly they have to like outfit create a menu for and like basically create a restaurant from scratch in like a day and it's yeah this is

Speaker Alike doing the avant-garde challenge in eight hours oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

Maxit is yeah it is they always design and then they also do the same thing from top dress so sometimes the host comes in and gives them a a little surprise like oh and now you have to do dessert for everyone or something got it got it so it's really it's really fun because they like design the restaurant they come up

Merlinwith a horrible name we just we just rewatched the one with that that guy I don't know why this guy gets under my skin but it's that it's some of the The celebrity chefs who come in to be on the panel are just insufferable to me. They're real sexual assaulty, a lot of them. But this one guy, not saying he's like that, but his deal is sustainable seafood. So for the sustainable seafood guys, restaurant wars, you can have two of the two-story restaurant he has at Mendeley Bay in fucking Las Vegas where he's doing sustainable seafood.

MaxWhat kind of seafood is native to Las Vegas?

MerlinOh, my gosh. Just so many. You could get desert fish. You could get cactus weasel. You know he has to fly in so much fish. And I'm going to give you this little card so you learn what's sustainable, and that's going to be reflected in how I judge. But that's what they do, and that's fun. But we were watching the season with Jen. Not you, Jen. Other Jen. Blonde Jen, who kind of flames out at the end. Ooh, boy. Remember that? Yeah, that's a high-strung Jen. That's a very, very good season. That's the one with Eli. It's the one with the Voltaggio brothers. It's the one with Creepy Mike Isabella.

It's a very, very good season.

MaxYou know, they had to edit that season. Although they're in retrospect now that we can, you know, there's a lot of good chefs on that. Like Mike Isabella is a great chef and there were a lot of good chefs on that season. They very obviously had to edit that season to add suspense in since it was so clear the Voltaggio brothers were going to run away with it.

MerlinRight. So anyway, Jen, that's Top Chef. Now, can I ask, you expressed, if I could say, outside of our secret channel, you expressed a certain amount of excitement that Top Model was available to stream. And you were going to go watch that. What's it called? America's Next Top Model? Yep.

Speaker AAnd is that Tyra Banks? Oh, it's Tyra. It's the Tyra show with a little reality game show mixed in. So I've been sick this week, and I recently watched all of Project Runway All-Stars. And I was like, I need something similar, but I guess worse. so America's Next Top Model has 22 seasons available on Hulu I'm going to be busy for so long

Merlinso long

Maxso I talked about this on I have my weekly conversation with Patrick Rothfuss on Attending Consequences

MerlinI've got in show notes I want to congratulate you it's back thank you I missed that show you haven't done it in like two years I'm so glad you're doing it

Maxhow's Pat? Pat's good he seems to be he's not doing that good

Merlinbut hearing him talk about it was amazing uh he's he's had a pat's had a rough couple of years i've had a part from the depression and the panic attacks that he's doing great yeah yeah but no but i think he's i but no no i think well

Maxwhatever i think pat i think pat is doing much better now than than he was a year ago he's very

Merlinlucid you bring out a i mean obviously he's a very intelligent guy but you bring out a real passion and lucidity and clarity to his to his thinking and speaking extemporaneously that's always really super good and you did a really good magic trick thank you well i've always felt that

Maxthat Pat Rothfuss is my John Roderick. And you have a rapport with John. You're my Swatch. How? Seriously. I'm Tim Gunn and you're Swatch. What? Every day he shows up and just hopes you're alive. Maybe I'm Swatch and you're Tim Gunn. Yeah, that's, there you go. Okay, that'll do. Is Jen still alive? Thank you, Mood.

Speaker AThank you, Swatch.

MaxSo, yeah, so, what do we have? Pat, podcast. Oh, yeah, you can find that at unattendedconsequences.com. But, right, okay, so I talked about this week with Pat. It's not out yet, but I have a new reality show that has gripped the Max and Veronica household that I'm going to make a bold recommendation to you guys, which is after we talked about, oh, boy, we talked about something. Oh, remember we had that talk about the talent show,

the vaudeville thing? What's that called? America's Got Talent. Oh, yeah, right, right, right. The vaudeville thing. And I was like, America's Got Talent, and I was like, I'm really interested in the production of this and the artifice of it.

MerlinYou're talking about enjoying it on all these different levels that you can sort of appreciate it on.

MaxOkay, so a number of different, maybe five or six different listeners of the Dubai Friday program reached out to me, and they said, do not sleep on this season of Survivor. They said, this season of Survivor is— I've heard this from multiple people. Yes. So they said this season of Survivor is one of the most interesting things that they've ever done. And it doesn't matter if you've never seen the show before, which I haven't, you should check it out. And now what's interesting is I also know I have many friends who work on Survivor. So they work on they design things for the show. They make the challenges in the games. They consult with Jeff Probst on the theme of the season.

I just know all these people in the Survivor production universe because it overlaps heavily with game design. And all of those friends have been going on about what a remarkable season this is. and also I've heard just people on Twitter and like game designers and stuff have reached out to me to say not because they listen to Dubai Friday or anything but they've been like hey as the designer of Secret Hitler which is like a social deduction game this season of Survivor is insane and you have to you should be watching it it's like the most like Secret Hitler thing that's ever been put on TV so sure

Survivor it's like season 36 the show's been on for 20 years and somehow I have never seen an episode of Survivor Season 37 seasons? That's amazing. I have literally never seen an episode. I mean, I'm familiar with the premise, which is these 20 people get trapped on an island and then they vote each other off. And there's challenges and things like that.

MerlinAnd don't you win like Mountain Dew and stuff? Like if you get through the muck fastest, do you get like a Target gift card or something?

MaxSo at first you get things like a flint to make fire and like materials to build a shelter. But then later you get like a fried chicken dinner. And these people start crying. Oh, my God. At one point, they won, I don't know, yeah, like fried chicken. People start crying, or like cold beers or coffee, and they start crying because you don't have it.

Speaker AI cry when I eat fried chicken anyway.

MaxYeah, I know. But, okay, so let me tell you the premise of this season that makes it so juicy. So this season, the contestants start out divided into two tribes. So the first tribe is the Goliaths. And the Goliaths are these physically huge, sort of beautiful, muscular people. And they're all highly successful and wealthy. So they have like, there's like a professional wrestler. There's all these like doctors. There's a successful Hollywood screenwriter.

There's like a special forces elite operator. There's like, there's like, they're just like.

Speaker ASo like the gens of the world.

MaxThe gens of the world, exactly. And then, and that's the first tribe, the Goliaths. The second tribe is the Davids, and the Davids are, like, physically smaller. They're, like, largely not college educated, and they're just, like, regular working class people. You've got, like, a truck driver, an MMA fighter. There's, like, a college, like, roboticist. Just more, like, regular, I don't know, like, regular people. Like, someone works in a kitchen. Just regular people. And they pit these people together in challenges, and it is so fucking fascinating.

just like now you might think like immediately like the Goliaths have every advantage and they're going to crush them and at a lot of things they do but also like what about when there's adversity or when there's fighting because the Goliaths just crumble oh because they're not used to having to um cede total control well yeah they've not really overcome any adversity it's like if you're if

Merlinyou're if you're a David in life I'll accept that metaphor for now if you're a David in life you are used to having to deal with other people's rule. You're used to having to capitulate and be a team player.

MaxOr also, here's something. On Survivor, you don't always have enough food, and you still have to go do physically demanding things. And I bet most of the Goliaths have literally never felt what that's like in their entire life, to be hungry. They're used to their oat milk on demand. Exactly.

Speaker AIt's like Ron Weasley in the seventh Harry Potter book. He throws a fit because he doesn't have food a lot. Max is just nodding slowly.

MaxYes, it is like that.

MerlinAnyway. Is there any recommendation you have for Jen at this point, Max?

MaxSomething along the lines of read another fucking book. No, I will say.

Speaker AI do read other books. Max wouldn't say that to me.

MaxJen and I text each other Harry Potter memes quite often.

Speaker AYeah.

MaxGood.

Speaker AIt's a safe space for that. I do read other books. I just don't like them as much. I was just kidding.

MaxHow far into the season are you? Well, there's 10 episodes. I think there might only be two more. I think it's a 12-episode season and like 10 of the 12 are out. and I was like I'll watch the pilot and see what it's about and then like you know nine hours later I was like I like sat up blinking and I was like what just happened so if you've never seen Survivor in your life this is a great I think this is a great season I mean I certainly followed it it's a great season too to jump in with thank you to all of the Dubai Friday listeners who recommended this to me

and then the final thing I'll just throw out is like in Survivor it is like a werewolf or a secret Hitler like you know someone's getting voted out and there's these politics and ruses and deceptions and plans and counter plans. And it is so advanced. Like everyone on the show has seen, you know, whatever 20-some seasons of the show and the metagame of how you play Survivor is very advanced and it is thrilling. It's thrilling to watch the politics play out. Like they're so good at it. And the level of deception and play is just exhilarating.

It is so fun. It sounds like this would be a good challenge. It? Oh, I'm... I'm, you better, if you, if, if, if nobody watches Survivor before our next challenge, you better believe it's going to be my next, my next challenge is watch the pilot. But, uh. All right. I'm in. It's my, I give this, I give this show my, uh, garbage TV seal of approval.

What else did I have about Top Chef? I had some food trends that I identified in the season of Top Chef. Did you identify any food trends, Merlin?

MerlinNo, no. The ones you were talking about, I don't watch the show as closely as I should. I'm real curious. I mean, just one side. I'm curious to see how they managed to milk the Kentucky thing for an entire season. They've already kind of shot their wad on horses and bugles and whiskey. But no, tell me some of the food trends because you have your ear to the ground. You're somebody who's aware. They have to move. You can't stand. You can't stand Kentucky. Kentucky for that many episodes, right?

MaxThey should go to Cincinnati. It's got taller buildings and the same amount of racism. I can't believe they've only done one season in Chicago. Is that right? I watched that one.

Speaker AIt was good. I did watch. Is that the one where they have like a block party? I think so, yeah. Yeah, and someone, one chef looks at the camera and is like, yeah, people in Chicago don't know how to eat like good food, so we're just going to serve them hot dogs.

MaxAnd we're being like, how dare you? That's the Richard Blaze season. That's one of the all-time best seasons of Top Chef.

MerlinI feel like there was a tailgating challenge on that one.

Speaker AYes, that's what I was thinking.

MerlinYeah, they had to go to the Bears stadium and make some slop for the...

MaxFor the baddies. For the oaks who go to the football game. For the buffoons.

MerlinWhat do you think their ideal temperature is?

MaxSo let's see. The big food trends I identified where you had carrots as a main dish, which is something I see a lot in fancy restaurants now.

Speaker AAs a main dish? Yeah, I see a lot of like...

MaxYeah, like don't you see like carrot riettes or braised carrots as like a savory main dish now. I see that in a lot of menus.

MerlinIs it like a heritage carrot, like those funny purple ones? Well, you know, those turn unpurple when you cook them. The devil you say.

MaxYeah, I think they all turn orange.

MerlinI think I'm cooking them wrong. I've got to quit microwaving my carrots.

MaxLet's see. You've got, what else did I have? Oh, I saw a lot of savory ricotta dishes. There were two savory ricotta dishes. I think that's a big trend.

Speaker AAgreed, agreed.

MaxI saw a lot of savory ricotta dishes when I was in LA. Yep. Yeah. Well, just ricotta toast, I think, is a big. Ricotta the cheese? Ricotta the cheese. Huh. And finally, I saw a lot of, well, I saw one person made a tilefish name. Blah. And I don't know, have I talked about my tilefish experience on this podcast before? Is that when you were in Japan? It is when I was in Japan.

MerlinI remember an anecdote from the crying episode where you had no spoilers but you had a significant emotional response to eating sushi is this the same

Maxno no no that was a good that was the when I had sea urchin and that was the first time I ever tried sea urchin and like got why people like you know uni

Speaker AI don't like sea urchin it's the only piece of fish I don't like

Merlinis that the orange one that looks like a tongue yes yes

Maxso I'll tell you the deal or this was my experience with it I tried sea urchin all these times and all these people told me it was their favorite sushi and you know one of the best seafoods and i didn't really get it and sea urchin is just not that good in chicago like if you get sea urchin and chicago sushi it is just it's not the same and i had it like like fresh out of its like horrifying mollusk or whatever in japan and it was so good it made me it almost made me cry it was like one of the best things i've ever had no and the tile fish you would contrast with that yes so when so when we went to japan when the car

So, you know, we did a whole cards like partners trip to Japan just a few years ago. And it was really just for fun just to hang out with each other because mostly when we see each other now, it's purely for work. And, you know, when we travel, we usually try to do – even when we go for work or whatever, we usually have one meal that we sort of like expense that's like our like, you know, go out to a fancy steakhouse. Like we pick like a nice restaurant and we just don't think about the price and we go have like one insane meal. And we had heard when you're in Japan, we spent a couple days in Kyoto.

We read somewhere that when you're in Kyoto, what you want to have is a kaiseki. And a kaiseki is a traditional progressive Japanese meal that goes back to like the, it's like an ancient style of cuisine.

MerlinTell me what that means. That means like a single payer health care? What is a progressive dinner? What does that mean?

MaxProgressive means that one course comes out after another and you eat them in a sequence and they build on each other and they tell a story.

Merlinthrough. It's more than a multi-course meal. There's a story. I would say, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

MaxAnd I think also with progressive, it's like prefix. You're not really choosing what you get. It's like things come out in a certain order. And let's see. And we had also heard that when you're in Kyoto, you want to get the Kaiseki. And also, part of it is you go get the most expensive Kaiseki you can afford. Because Kaiseki, I now know from talking to my food writer friends, the kaiseki is it's very different than american consumptions of dining kaiseki is all about like having it's it's so i heard it described as eating with your ego instead of eating with your mouth

and you're not necessarily eating the most delicious things but you're like eating the rarest things the most expensive things the most special things and you sort of have to know about what you're eating and know the story of it to be like it's such a celebration that i'm eating this so but we didn't know any of that we were just like i guess it's a fancy dinner in japan so we went to the kaiseki we booked this absolutely insane nice kaiseki meal in a place that uh the uh the emperor like used to eat at it's like an you know an old ancient kaiseki place and so the first time that something went wrong was we came in and there was this huge staff of of waitresses

all in in like um kimonos you know just like formal formal wear and they all like bowed they like knelt and bowed to us and we didn't know how to stop it we stood there for like 45 seconds while they were kneeling and they didn't speak a word of English and we didn't really speak any

MerlinJapanese they're probably not allowed to stop until you know the safe word right right we had

Maxto say yeah we had to say something we were like what do we do do we fully and she just looks you and winks it goes hi do we take our shoes off do we like turn a key somewhere like what how do we stops from happening. Is this an escape room? Yeah. What do we do to make this stop occurring? A Japanese gas light. I don't know. Eventually, we figured it out, and they brought us into the dining room. So, first of all, you go by the kitchen. In the kitchen, it's a huge kitchen staff. There must have been 30 to 40 people just working on food, and we

go by, and we're like, well, this place looks really small, but they must be really busy. And then we come into the dining room, and the dining room has one table in it, and it's for us. Oh, no. Was Alex at this? No, no, no, no. This was just the cards like co-creators. And we sit where they sit us around the table and it's this huge dining room with like plants in it and like a rock, like a, like a river, like a stream and what's that. Like it was an unbelievable dining room and like, oh my God, these like ancient, like, like crackled urns. Like it was so nice, but I, it certainly gave me

the impression. I can't say for sure, but I certainly had the impression we were the only people at this restaurant and also that entire staff of of waitresses was our service staff so they did like i would be so before i ever sat down i feel so embarrassed oh we were we were off kilter and and and uncomfortable immediately it was so not our thing and so it was like simultaneous service so these women would come in and and place the plate in front of us and bring in you know special serviceware and spoons and chopsticks everything for like every dish. And the food was, so what is Kaiseki? So Kaiseki is very- I'm looking at it. I just sent

Merlinyou a screen grab of the order of the foods. This is so complicated. So we were at a really,

Maxso this is the traditional Kaiseki sort of procession. And you can see here, it's like, okay, you're going to have your sliced sashimi and then your vegetables with meat and then your lidded dish and then your flame grilled food like it's a very um ordered up and traditional thing but a lot of the kaiseki we were having i now know this because i like went and learned about it but a lot of the kaiseki courses we were having were like plays on this they were like if you knew about kaiseki i'm sure this meal would have blown your mind you're so screwed

Merlinwe were fucked we were so fucked it's like you're watching a satire in a language you don't

Maxunderstand exactly it's insane now now okay so okay so what is kaiseki so kaiseki favor is is is a very traditional Japanese. So you're going to have very little fat, very little salt, and you're going to have a lot of, like, fishy flavor, and then it's very textural. You know, Japanese food is very textural. And Japanese textures, what they like is different from textures that I would say American diners like. Japanese people love chewy. They love gooey and chewy foods, you know, glutinous, kind of ricey, gooey things.

They love crunchy things, It was like eating the bones of like a little fish or something like that. So it was just this like flavorless gooey meal with just unidentifiable.

Speaker AWith the occasional bone.

MaxSo many bones. So one thing that we had was we kept having this, what was it called, like conger eel, I think. And we did not, you have to understand, they didn't speak any English and we didn't speak any Japanese. And we had no idea what we were being served. and we kept every course we had kept coming with these very generous portions of this eel and i now know that this eel is like it people eat it but it's incredibly difficult to prepare so what you the chef has to take this eel and they basically turn it inside it has these tiny pin bones that can't be taken out so what they do is they turn the eel inside out and then they score it with

like little knife marks that take all day to do like a millimeter apart and then they dissolve

Merlinof the bones in like we're not talking about like a like a barbecued unagi type situation here

Maxno no this is a it was like it turned to sand in your mouth like it was so and then it was chewy because it had like the skin it was i was i was like it was awful i hated it and it was beautiful oh the other thing with kaisaki is these courses are on there every single one of them is like a composed painting like it feels wrong to eat it they're so beautiful but it is so bad and i was like spitting pieces of this eel i was like sending it on the floor i was sending it back i was like hiding it in the urns i was like i can't continue eating this eel like it was putting it in your

pockets yeah it was great we all had napkins full of like food in our pockets and now mr tempkin son

Merlinyou enjoy the eel so much let me bring you more they wouldn't take the food until we all finished

Maxevery bite on our plate and we couldn't be like okay we're done take it because we couldn't communicate that so they uh so we were and we were just sending this huge portions of this eel back And I'm sure there was a chef in the kitchen who had worked for literally like over a day to prepare that eel who was just like going to commit harikari in the kitchen.

Speaker AI knew you were going to make that joke.

MaxAnd we brought great dishonor to our families at this restaurant. I mean, we truly brought shame for a thousand generations upon the United States of America at this restaurant.

MerlinYou should get the Kanji tattoo for grave disrespect.

Maxand um then the the one there was a couple of low points of the i mean i will say i had some amazing dishes at this at this thing there was like a miso soup with a rice dumpling it's one of the one very memorable one of the best things i've ever had and and i liked it because it had flavor in it but um then there was uh there was this tile fish course so they brought this fish out and we didn't recognize it and it's like scaly skin that you couldn't eat and and we were like what is it what is it and they finally like went and figured out the translation they're like Tile fish, tile fish, and none of us had ever heard of tile fish before.

Tile fish is this, like, very bland, like, white fish, and I now know that it's, like, at the time, at least, I think it was, like, hard to get. It was, like, very, you know, it was, like, very rare and expensive, and it was, like, a real delicacy just because of how rare it was. I mean, these huge honking portions, and we were already all, like, stuffed full and nauseous, and we were just not happy. and this huge slab of tilefish. And basically you had to like pull out the cartilage and the skin and then you would like really get in there and eat the fish. And we all just put down this huge slab of tilefish.

And we were like, oh, my God, thank God that tilefish is. And it was really not seasoned that well. Like I just was not enjoyable. And then texturally not great either. Like I didn't like how it was cooked. And then we were like, thank God we're done with this. and then we had these huge bowls full of tilefish cartilage and bones and things. And then they come in with a huge cauldron of tilefish fumet and they pour it into the bowl with the cartilage in the skin.

Speaker AI thought you were going to say they poured it into your mouth.

MaxJust brimming, these huge bowls brimming with tilefish fumet. And now you can eat the cartilage and really get into those bones and get all the little scraps of tilefish. And we were just like, please let it stop. No more tilefish.

Speaker AWere you very sick after this?

MerlinI was so sick after this. Do you have any sense of where, I mean, is there like, you know, like in Rocky, the lady in the bikini comes out and flips the card to let you know what round you're in? Do you have any sense of how much time you still have on the clock for this meal?

MaxWe were there for hours and hours, and we did not understand the course progression of Kaiseki, and we had no idea where. Every time we thought this, surely this must be the last one, and then more and more things would come out. and then the final thing is when you're done with the meal just in case you somehow didn't get enough food the final like slap in the face is they bring out this huge mountain of rice and they're just like here just eat rice in case you somehow didn't get enough to eat and so they bring out this huge thing of rice and then they just stand outside like watching us and we were like and we were

like we don't know how to end we want to like terminate the meal and like get our check but the thing is in Japanese hospitality you would like never ask the guest if they want the check and we didn't know how to get up and ask for the check and so we just sat there for like 90 minutes just staring at this thing of rice and we're like and we're like do we have to finish the rice to unlock the bill like is it like is the check hidden at the bottom of the rice and we had to get through it all this sounds this is like a stress dream it was a very challenging meal and

And I now know enough about it to know we were just absolute fucking louts. I mean, we were just probably the worst customers they ever had at that restaurant. But anyway, I was very disheartened to see the tilefish make an appearance on Top Chef. I don't think I can handle it if the tilefish becomes a food trend in the U.S.

Speaker ADid you leave a Yelp review?

MaxOkay. So you know what was amazing was when we left, we were all like in a daze. We were like, what the fuck just happened to us? Yeah, I'm sure you were food drunk. So we went on Yelp and Google, and we were like, we've got to learn about Kaiseki. And one of the first things we learned is that this very fancy restaurant in Chicago called Next, which is a Grant Ackett's restaurant, had done a Kaiseki menu. And we were like, well, that can't be the same thing we just ate, so I wonder what that was. And then we looked up the reviews for that meal, and we saw all these Japanese people had gone to Next, and they had American take on Kaiseki.

And they were like, everything was so over-seasoned, it tasted like Doritos. Oh, that sounds perfect.

Speaker AAnd I was like, yeah, but that was amazing.

MaxI'd go to Dorito Kaiseki. Yeah, I was like, I would have gladly had Doritos instead of most of those courses.

Speaker AThere's nothing more delicious than a Dorito.

MaxI mean, a Cool Ranch Dorito is one of the greatest triumphs of human engineering.

MerlinIt's got a great flavor profile.

Speaker AYeah, yeah. It's like the, yeah.

MerlinAt the end of the meal, they bring out a giant bowl of Cap'n Crunch.

Speaker AHave either of you ever left a Yelp review?

MaxI feel like I have. I'm not going to say who, but someone in my family network is an elite Yelp reviewer. They have Yelp status.

Speaker AThat means they get to go to special Yelp events.

MaxThey do go to special Yelp events that they get invited to, but also I think you have these calling cards that you can give to a restaurant to be like,

Speaker Ajust so you know before the service begins i'm an elite i'm a i'm an elite yeah um god uh someone from yelp in chicago wanted to engage cards against humanity in some kind of partnership thing so like i had a meeting with like their community manager it was a real meeting of community managers meeting of the minds and he said something like um he said uh yeah he was he was like saying all these positive things about yelp like you know like a positive review is proven in a positive review at like a small mom and pop store or neighborhood local restaurant

can like increase their business by like 40% a month and then I was like but what about a negative

Maxreview and he had nothing to say to that well you know one of our friends uh who used to work at a bike shop uh was working at this shop one day uh and he they got a call from Yelp and they were like hey we're calling from Yelp and we're offering like Yelp premium to your business and if you buy like yelp premium so like right now you know we have we have like quote-unquote no control over the reviews on your business but i can see that there's some negative reviews up there and if you were to pay for yelp premium that we could do something about these negative reviews but of course they'll remain as long as you don't pay for yelp premium and it was like

such extortion right it was like it's a shakedown it's a shakedown yeah nice nice business you have here it'd be a shame if something happened so i do think there's some sort of creepy extortionist thing happening with Yelp where they're shaking down

Speaker Athese small businesses. Yeah, I asked my friend who works there. She does like QA for Yelp. And she said that they don't like hide, they don't remove bad reviews, but they hide them. They're hidden under a button that says more, less relevant reviews here.

MerlinWow. No, you, well, this is funny because you had mentioned something in the channel. I am now thinking about the dinner that I had at French Laundry, which went very, very wrong.

Speaker AOh, oh, what happened?

MerlinBut you, I think you, did you have a recent bad experience?

Speaker AYeah, okay. Wait, you went to French Laundry? No, no, no. I wish. That'd be awesome. I went to a French restaurant in my neighborhood recently and had an interesting experience. So it was a cold Tuesday evening, and I decided I wanted to eat a steak. So we went to this new French restaurant in our neighborhood.

MaxIt was a chilly 76 degrees.

MerlinExcuse me, could you accommodate my heating pad?

Speaker ACan I bring my heating pad with me? Can you plug this in somewhere?

MerlinIt's so cold. How you say, froid? It's so cold in here.

Speaker AYou guys are hilarious. So my partner ordered their extremely good roast chicken dish, and I almost got that. Do you guys ever get mad when you're eating out with someone and their meal is better than yours?

MaxConstantly.

Speaker AYeah, I get furious.

MaxI'm very competitive. I'm very competitive. Pretty much every meal.

MerlinPretty much every meal.

Speaker AYeah, it feels like it's been happening to me a lot lately.

MerlinEspecially if they did something novel, like they did Let's Have Appetizers for Dinner, and I'm like, man, I should have had appetizers for dinner. That makes so much more sense. You know what I do? I do order the dumb guy steak. I always get the dumb steak that's there for the dumb guy. And I'm like, oh, man, you've got almonds in yours.

MaxI do not like when after I've ordered, someone at the table goes, excuse me, but is breakfast served all day? And then they unlock the good part of the menu.

Speaker AYeah, that's not fair.

MaxYeah.

Speaker AThat's not fair at all. You can't spring that on someone. I know.

MerlinYou should have a card that you can lay on the table that says, we're going to begin this whole process over. Or leave. Leave the restaurant.

MaxNow, I play a pretty aggressive social politics game. And I will say when someone orders something, and I suspect that it might be better than my order, I will immediately try to create an alliance with them and I'll be like, hey man, I'd love to play the game with you I'm here to play Let's share

Speaker ALet's eat off each other's But you've got to establish that You can't midway through the meal start picking things off their plate

MerlinBefore you go full in, can I ask a question? This is a real dumb Seinfeld kind of question but are you ever say you're the third person out of four to order and somebody before you has ordered something it's exactly what you wanted to order Are you reluctant to order what somebody else's order? Do you feel like your order should be unique?

MaxI used to be very self- When I started, when I was younger And I like first got some money And I was like first able to go out to restaurants I felt, I don't know why But I felt very, where did that come from? I felt very self-conscious And if someone else got something I was like, oh, I gotta change up I can't get the same thing I don't know, where did I learn that? Is that like a trope? I don't know where I got that But now I don't give a fuck I just order what I want I don't care What about you, Jen? You change your order?

Speaker AIt depends on the restaurant. Like, if I really want this, like, if I believe in this dish, I'm going to get it no matter what. But if I'm, like, a little shaky on the menu and never been to this restaurant before, I might get nervous at the last second and be like, uh, uh, uh, the pancakes. Like, you know, you ever, that can really, really slap you. Well, I don't know.

MerlinI think it, I don't know. I'm interested in where it does come from because it's such an odd, it's such an odd thing. It really, it is. Why would you? I used to feel very self-conscious about that. Yeah.

Speaker ASounds like a Midwestern quarter.

MerlinMaybe are you worried about looking like a tourist or something? Like you're not sure, like you're not creative enough to come up with your own menu selection? Like what causes that?

MaxIs that something that came from our parents' generation? Is that like a thing that older people used to be more concerned about ordering, all ordering a different thing?

Speaker ASomething tells me it's a Midwestern quarter, and I don't know why. But Merlin has it.

MerlinI mean. I've seen it. I feel like I know people who are adamant about ordering something unique. I feel like it's probably used to be less of a problem. where it was more of, you know, and I'll have what she's having kind of thing. Well, not specifically that, but where you would say, oh, that sounds yummy. I'll have that too. Like we would, when I was a kid, I feel like there was no compunction about everybody getting roughly the same thing, especially if you were cost conscious. But I wonder if, hmm.

MaxHow far, would it be fun? It would be so funny if I went out to eat with Veronica and I ordered for her and I was like, and the lady will have the pancakes.

Speaker AThe lady, no, no. I'll have a double glazed baby back ribs and the lady will have a salad.

Maxthe lady will have the house salad with the dressing on the side.

Speaker BThe lady will have the diet plate with the biscuit and the cottage cheese and the cutlet. Half-sized cutlet for the lady. The lady will have the savory ricotta dish. My beloved broad wife will have the least caloric intake.

Speaker AMy huge wife will have the worst of color.

Speaker BFirst of all, if I'm sorry, permit me to apologize for my wife. I know she's a grotesque. I encouraged her to eat at home so she wouldn't clean out

Speaker Athe whole place. My grandchildered wife will have this sparingly.

Speaker BBefore we order, perhaps I should get an assurance about the sturdiness of your chairs. Maybe we should move her to the banquet.

Speaker AA thousand apologies that you must look upon, my huge wife.

Speaker BI'm so sorry. If you hear a creaking...

Maxbefore we before we order i'd like you to know a few things about my curvy wife number one i love her oh god damn it

MerlinSo you and your curvy wife go out, you've got to order different things.

Speaker ASo at this French restaurant, I ordered a stupid guy steak. I don't know. I just wanted something. Do you ever crave salt? I wanted something salty. Oh, shit, dog. Always. So I ordered.

MerlinI want a giant piece of fucking protein that's salty as shit.

Speaker AThat's what I want everywhere. It's like I wanted the food that they make in the new Zelda game. It's like they just take steak and just sprinkle salt on it, and he puts it over a fire, and then he eats it. That's what I wanted. That's so good.

MaxI built the steak. Now, what kind of steak do you order? I actually, I know like a weird amount of meat, but I get paralyzed when I have to pick a steak. When I'm at a steak restaurant, I have to like, you know, we go to that steak restaurant in Indianapolis when we go to Gen Con.

Speaker AElmo's? St. Elmo's? Yeah.

MaxAnd they have like a, it's like the Ron Swanson restaurant.

Speaker AYep.

MaxThey have like 18 different kinds of steak you can get. I'm paralyzed by indecision. Rib eye.

Speaker ARib eye. That's good to know. Well, they only had one steak on this menu, and it was like a –

MerlinIt was like a cute steak. It was like a flat iron steak with funny sides.

Speaker AIt had been aged for like 45 days. I was like, that sounds good. I like my meat old. So the steak was like – it was not good. It was like really – it was like charred on the outside, which was good, but it was like way too fatty, and I like had to eat around it. But honestly, it was like fine.

MaxSounds like not cooked well.

Speaker AIt was not good. But it was, it's, I'm not going to complain about it. One, because like.

MaxThat's a tragedy. That 40, like a 40 day age steak is one of the best.

Speaker AI know. It should have been amazing. But I already had a cheese plate and a ton of bread. So I wasn't unhappy. I was like, well, I'm full of cheese. I'll be okay. But man, the, okay. So we finished, finished our food. I eat some of my partner's food. Cause like, you know, I'm not really eating my steak, but the steak was served in a bowl, like over couscous. So I kind of, and it came with a bone marrow, which is pretty good. So I kind of managed to hide the fact that I didn't eat a lot of my steak and I didn't think anything of it. Little did I know, the manager swooped in, saw that I hadn't eaten my steak, and I thought he was going to blow his brains out.

He was like, ma'am, you must still be hungry. And I was like, oh, no, no, I'm good. First of all, a man swooping in, like materializing over my shoulder to ask me if I'm still hungry. I was like, no, I'm good, really. and he was so polite but like too polite there was a lot of attention a lot of attention turned to me to figure out why I hadn't finished my steak no no no I'm okay I'm okay I don't need more steak he's like please can I bring you something else from the kitchen which is such an open-ended

Maxplease spare my family please

Speaker Ayes it was such an open-ended question please it's my fault punish me I know I was like

Merlinis he enjoying this secretly I should have made the marrow more prominent

Speaker Aoh my god it was so terrible And then I was like, please, I don't need anything else from the kitchen, please. Also, how do I, like, I could order anything I want. Okay, I want mac and cheese. Like, it's not on the menu, but you said I could have anything I want. I don't know. Bring me a bowl of popcorn.

Doritos? Do you have Doritos? Like, go get it. So I was like, no, no, it's totally fine. He goes, well, we'll take that off the bill. What? It's like a $60 steak, and he took it off the bill. Cha-ching, cha-ching. But I'm like, okay. Maybe they knew.

MaxOkay, what about this? Let me throw a little theory here. Maybe they had a new guy in the grill station, and they knew that he was struggling.

Speaker AI think that might be it.

MaxAnd the manager was keeping an eye on the steaks that came out, and they were like, is this working?

MerlinBecause one nice thing about a steak is somebody who's worked in a restaurant for even a week can make a pretty good steak. I know.

MaxGot to disagree with you there.

MerlinWell, I mean, all the things being equal, if you want a normal, according to Hoyle, medium-rare steak, that feels to me like something, maybe it's like play and go. Moments to learn, lifetime to master.

MaxI've got to disagree with you on that.

MerlinTell me more.

MaxI mean, I think that steak is such a simple food. You really have nowhere to hide. With other kinds of cooking, there are ways to fix if you're a little over, a little under.

MerlinYou could fuck up the cordon bleu six ways from Sunday, but the steak is unforgiving.

MaxYeah, you could sauce it and plate it different ways. But a steak is either right or it's not, right? And in this case, I think it sounds like they threw it on the grill and it cooked way too hot. And it charred the outside, but then they did not bring it up to temperature. None of the fat got rendered and the connective tissue and the collagen and everything didn't break down. And that's a bad cook on a steak. I think Merlin and I like the sous vide when we do our home steak because it kind of takes care of that. I got an exact temperature for everything.

MerlinIt all is flawless every time now. I make a 142 pork chop that would make you cry.

MaxJim, what about this? What about this? What if we get some of our crew and we go to one of those embarrassing steakhouses downtown for just madman lunch?

Speaker AOh, my God. Three martini lunch.

MaxLet's just go get a huge steak and a martini and expense it to the company.

Speaker AAnd slap the waitress on the butt. That's what they did in Mad Men. I'll leave that to you.

MaxIt's so cold in here. What do you think about this?

Speaker AThat sounds great.

MaxOkay. So we'll all drink a martini.

Speaker AYeah.

Maxand we'll talk about one martini you gotta have two more talk about our accounts our accounts

Speaker Ayeah and our business profiles our portfolios i don't know what a portfolio is yeah um just to finish the terrible thing that happened at this first restaurant oh no how can i say the words french restaurant say it really quickly french restaurant oh you guys can do it i thought that would go differently yeah we haven't had our martinis yet nice and crisp um so the manager is like falling over himself for me and it was like a huge display and it was it was very sweet but like way too much and then um he said I'll take that off the bill and I watched to see

approached my server our server to like make this transaction happen and I was like please don't please please let this be the end of it like I can't take much more I feel like there's a spotlight on me and while that would keep me warm it was not it was not great it was not it was not a great situation so I was like I told John my partner I was like I'm gonna go hide in the bathroom until this is over so I ran to the bathroom uh like took my time peeing and washing my hands thinking like this will be over by the time I leave so I come back to the table and John is I as I'm approaching the table John is just shaking his head at me saying you never should have left

because now sitting on the table are new new silverware and I'm like oh no what are they doing they brought over a selection madam is not going anywhere a selection of desserts carrot cake chocolate mousse and uh the manager's like i just couldn't let you leave hungry

Merlinthat's a form of stalking jen i'm not hungry but like you've you've made your desires clear and they're not being acknowledged or followed that's that guy that's that's that's french

Speaker Astalking yeah i this is why i like restaurants with bad service honestly well here to close out this story i forgot to mention that when i when i first ordered the steak our weird server so i'm like our weird server. I was like, and I'll do the, I'm going to do the steak.

MerlinI'll do the big asshole steak.

Speaker AThis is what he said.

MerlinGive me the asshole steak.

Speaker AOh, wow. You're really going for it. Oh, no. What does that mean? What does that mean?

MerlinPerhaps Madam would be more comfortable on the bank account. It is how you say much warmer over there.

Speaker AYou're really going for it? For the food? We are in a restaurant? You're really going for it? What does that mean?

MerlinThat's not a French service thing to say.

Speaker AI know. I know. Would you say that to a man? If a man ordered a steak, he'd be like, wow, you're really going for it.

MaxI can tell you with very high confidence that I've never gone to a restaurant and ordered a steak and had the waiter go, wow, you're really going for it.

Speaker ASo I would just like...

MaxI have ordered a quantity of food at a restaurant where the waiter asked if it was just for me.

MerlinOh, that's the thing. When you get the Chinese delivery and it's for three people, there's utensils for nine people. Fuck you But thanks for the nine fortune cookies. Oh That's that is so see what I love about my idea of French service old-school French service is like you don't notice them doing anything That's the anticipate a classic French restaurant my opinion is like There's just this this team of people just they're like they're like ringwraiths. They're just like slowly you're moving through You're like, you know and like crumbs disappear napkins folded wish wish wish cha cha and like everything's just getting taken care of

You don't have to talk to fucking anybody. They anticipate what you need. They don't say, how are we doing tonight? They don't say, oh, are we loving the food tonight? They don't say any of that. They just feel your, no, I don't want more water. No, never give me more water. Would you like more water? No, who would ever want more water? That's so odd. I drank this one really fast. Thanks for asking. No more water from me. I'm good.

MaxDo you think they're telling you their first name when they first come up to the table?

Speaker AOr doing the TJF, I just think where they sit in the spare seat.

MerlinOh, my name is Skip. How we doing tonight? I want to tell you about some of our specials. Is your first time dining with us?

MaxYeah, no, we do things a little bit different here. Family stuff. Yeah, we have we have what what what you might call tapas or small plates.

Speaker AYou really got to explain it to the Midwestern.

MerlinYeah. Yeah. One of you. One of you is the secret Hitler and it will be revealed by the end of the day. I think it's the fat girl.

MaxYou know something, a big trend in restaurants is, well, at least in the kind of restaurants that I like to go to, is where you're, it's not really small plates, but you sort of order, like, an indiscriminate amount of food for the table, you know? It's like, that just feels like how, like, all sort of mid-tier dining is going, right? Like, you don't get a bunch of things. And I always, I never know if we're getting the right amount of food. like sometimes it feels like we're ordering way too much for you know four people because we're getting like eight dishes or something even though there i know some of them are you know

the olives or something like that and a lot of times i'll ask the waiter we'll all go around the table and say what we want and then we'll be and then i'll be like how's the quantity here did we order are we ordering way too much food and i'm like no no this is good for four people and then we get three out of the eight dishes and we're all like you know leaning back with like a napkin coming out of our shirt and we're just like oh and we're like how much do we have we're like oh, we still have a bucket of crabs coming. It's just like some sort of abomination coming.

Speaker AI don't think they'll ever tell you to order less, though.

MaxI know, but that gives me a bad dining experience. Yeah. I do not want...

Speaker AI think a good way to do it is a server to be like, I would suggest four to six or five to six plates for this amount of people. Get it out ahead of time so I don't fall in love with the bucket of crabs.

MerlinPart of the problem is the way we order in restaurants, which is very, at most restaurants, they are structured, I think, I don't know if it's a chicken or an egg, but usually they come out and they say, kind of get you something to drink, do you want appetizers, but then, like, once you've ordered your entree, you're not supposed to order more stuff. But, like, if you go to, like, an American sushi restaurant, it's understood. Like, as soon as you sit down, you go, oh, well, could we have some edamame and sake and two beers? And then they come back and they say, well, what else, what's next? I love that idea of, like, just bring me the next thing, and then I'll order more, and I'll order more.

Here's one.

MaxDo you guys ever go out to a restaurant and not drink? No. Not drink at all? Yeah. You mean like any liquid? No, you just have water or whatever.

Speaker ANo.

MerlinI mean, I'll usually get, I definitely get water and I'll have an iced tea. A lot of times when we go out to eat, I'll have two Old Fashions.

MaxVeronica and I, when we go out, I would say over half the time, neither of us order any drinks.

Speaker AThat is foreign to me.

MaxIs it really? Yeah, truly. Well, clearly the restaurant is not designed for this setup because they come over and they go in now What's everyone drinking tonight? I'm like, we're not drinking just just water is fine And then the waiter always like they get mad they look look around the room like crestfall Like what like what's happening here? And then sometimes they go, okay I'll come back and they it's like no we don't wait. No. Yeah, we just skipped a thing. Oh, no

MerlinI know that this will especially this is definitely a kid thing when you've got a kid and like as soon as you sit down You know you that the clock is ticking you got maybe 45 minutes max before there's gonna be a blowout oh, how are we doing tonight? And like, oh, yeah. Let's go, let's go, let's go. First, yes, bring out crackers and bread. And yes, bring out literally every item as soon as it is done.

MaxLet me stop you right there. I'm going to have the bucket of crabs. And for the lady, the house salad.

MerlinDressing on the side, by which I mean no dressing.

Speaker ASir, this is a Burger King.

110. The Lady Will Have the Diet Plate

Show notes

Transcript

110. The Lady Will Have the Diet Plate

Show notes

Transcript

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