98. Mr. Loaf

AlexHey! We recorded this episode two days before the Dr. Ford and Kavanaugh Senate hearings. All of us are really, really sad today, and this is just a reminder that if you or someone you know is a victim or survivor of sexual violence, you can reach out to your local RAINN affiliate at any time, 24-7. You can call the National Sexual Assault Hotline at 1-800-656-4673 or visit RAINN.org. They're awesome. take care of each other and we hope we can make you laugh for a bit. Thanks for listening.

This is Dubai Friday, a weekly challenge podcast with Merlin Mann, Alex Cox, and Max Stepkin. This week's challenge, delete some apps. Hello? Hello. Max isn't here yet, but I want to say some nice things about him, so I'm glad he's not here yet.

MerlinOkay. I'm doing great. I've recorded my fourth show of the week.

AlexOh my god, it's Wednesday.

MerlinAnd yeah, things are going fine. I fixed my ice maker, which is a big deal.

AlexYou have an ice maker? Like a built-in ice maker? Yes, it's in my freezer.

MerlinI diagnosed the problem and I fixed it with my hands. I'm a regular Ron Swanson.

AlexOh, you're six-pack Bob, Joe.

Speaker AThat's me. It's me. Six-pack. Six-pack.

MerlinRobert is my father.

Speaker AHi. Oh, boy.

MerlinI'm six-pack Bob. Pretty, pretty good. Don't see in the document. Don't see in the document.

AlexWait, wait. No, I am. I am. No, you're not. I don't see in the white.

MerlinYou're in the drive.

AlexIt me. It me. There she is. She's looking at her cat. I have to say shortcuts is very disappointing when you can't do anything with Google Docs at all. It's very not a fan.

Merlinhmm well that's interesting because there is i have not hugely explored this but there's a part of my life that i do not talk about because it is unseemly and it is sad and that is that it's i don't want to talk about this a lot but i am i'm kind of obsessed with some of the internet of things things and the automated home things and i you can probably get a glance at that right I've got all the dinguses.

I've got multiple tube products. But the thing is, I'm also very interested in the data. So for a lot of my stuff, I have an... That automatically adds rows to a Google Doc.

And so that, just for what it's worth, it's... No, and it's sad. The stuff that I track is sad. If you learned it, you'd have to lay down. It's so bad. But I just think data is interesting. And I think patterns are interesting. And I love to get, let's just let the data run for six months and then select a bunch of stuff and hit that little explore button. Do you ever hit the little explore button? Like your garage door opens the most at this time of day. I think that's interesting. And it's sad.

AlexThe teens break in at this time.

MerlinOh, no, I cordless drill. I mentioned that only because IFTTT. There are some, the one that I've used the most is add a new row. and then you get there's it's pretty cool because it you know google what's nice is google sheets is very well documented i'm learning about all kinds of stuff i'm learning about pearson r's and like all kinds of like regression stuff and it's i don't understand it but it's super interesting and so there's a lot of neat stuff you can do in google sheets it's super powerful as you probably know but um yeah the if to the to i believe you can do stuff like even say i believe you can say

even like change a certain cell i think you can identify ranges and stuff i think i think okay let me go look at one of my sad my sad sad applets my applets house of sad okay so in this one i click the gear i'm clicking and so you can add row i feel like i saw that there was a way to even do do they document this like let's see so i want to go to what is considered drive

Have you monkeyed with the JSON payload stuff that Federico talked about? No.

AlexWho mess with that? I haven't even finished the review.

MerlinJSON is a baller. JSON is so freaking cool. It's like me installing, using Dan's tutorial for installing Rails. I'm just reading it phonetically and copying and pasting. But the JSON stuff is super powerful. It's a really simple, fairly plain language machine code for just moving data around. And it's so freaking smart.

AlexI used to know a lot of JavaScript and then I kind of scrubbed it from my mind because I'm like, I'll never need this. That was a mistake. And now I'm slowly getting back into it. And, oh, there's a lot of stuff you can do. My goodness.

MerlinWell, like, I mean, you know, this is the most obvious thing in the world. But anytime I either don't know how to do something or I have an itch about something that might be possible, I just search for Google Sheets and then Pearson. for example. And there's always, there's like full documentation on it. And, and like examples that you can kind of copy and paste and then wiggle around. And, you know, it's really neat. I mean, it's amazing because once you start doing multiple sheets and doing references to ranges in multiple sheets with the little exclamation point, like it becomes like a whole little ecosystem. I don't

think I haven't used Excel in years. I know Syracuse still uses it, but like, I'm blown away

Alexwith what you can do with Google Sheets. My friend Margaret just completely runs their life off of it and and and they use a fucking iphone and i'm like how what what's happening how do you do this but it's so it because there's such deep integration with with iftuta and they're just like

Merlinyou don't have to sit there like a monster i mean like a lot of the stuff i end up doing in my you know now it's time for things in google sheets when i end up doing that on the ipad or especially the iPhone, it's brutal to use the Sheets app on iOS. It's really not good. It's very, as you know, very unmodern. But you're right. You can make your own little front ends to a lot of this stuff where you don't have to deal with that. And now, I guess what I'm asking slash wondering is, are there now ways using maybe not Siri, but shortcuts where you could be doing more?

And it kind of relates to our topic today, which I'm weirdly interested in, is like learning these layers of abstraction about like what is an app like sometimes an app is just a thing that gives you a watch complication like sometimes an app is just a thing you have because you own the apple tv app like when is an app an app and when is an app just like a chunk of code

Alexi don't know what i'm saying it's early when i was installing well i'll i'll save this for when when max gets here because i bet his opinions about apps are going to be bad i saw the home home screen it's so bad not it's it's because here's why it's bad though you at least admit that you don't put a lot of thought or attention into it oh i would say it's much more importantly i literally don't care he cares he cares it's wrong it's very wrong it's very bad it's very bad oh that puts him in an awkward position yes it's so bad it's so bad did you know it was a bubble not a planet it's a bubble on do you really not know what i'm talking about

sure on the iphone screen there's billboards everywhere oh it's not a planet oh so we were

Merlinall scouring around looking for a planet pretty pretty canny the way they cover up the little

Alexbump huh i i love how people are like oh oh that's so smart but what they i don't know that's so so what like that you're not deceiving your customers it's like a trump it's like a trump

Merlinit's like a trump loyal you know the thing where you like paint a wall with a door and you wily coyote into it you're like i totally thought that was a door There is no bump here.

AlexI thought you were liking that. No one's going to open their email app and be like, oh no, why not? I don't know. It's silly.

MerlinDo they document these without having to go make a new app? This is not, this is the show?

AlexNo, this isn't the show.

MerlinIt could be the show. You decide, you decide.

AlexYou're the editor. You decide. Exactly. I'll decide.

MerlinBah. We had a very nice listener write to Back to Work today saying, could you please add chapter markers for Back to Work? And before Dan had a chance to get in and be nasty about it and inscrutable, I wrote back and I said, hey, you know, thank you very much for listening. I, like you, enjoy chapter markers on a lot of the shows I listen to. But the thing is, like, almost all the shows that I listen to that have chapter markers also hue to an outline that has where each section has a beginning and an end. I cannot even imagine what how long it would take each week to figure out

what the chapter markers are for back to work. Oh, and then they talked about Captain Marvel

Alexagain for three seconds like what i did enjoy i should link to this more often where where forecast was finally available and i put uh like like two dozen chapter markers in one episode of dubai friday oh right that's a neat little app i genuinely it's it's so good and then it makes my laptop almost start um it it just bursts into flames basically and then i have to get a fire extinguisher out but it's very very fast oh no very fast did you listen to the robot talk

cyborg talk cyborg talk um essential link the cyborg oh i'm back to work yes not important was that in your wheelhouse it was in my wheelhouse and like i said i didn't know if you'd

Merlinagree or disagree or otherwise but like i as i was speaking i found myself unintentionally channeling things i've thought about talking to you do you agree that a cyborg is a shameful thing compared to a robot don't you think a cyborg don't you think a cyborg would be a little shameful if

Alexit had to hang with robots oh well yeah if if you're talking about third level ai sure but i

Merlini mean like if everybody around you is a turing complete machine that totally makes sense and you're a thing that still has to poop like wouldn't you be kind of ashamed

Alexyeah that could be wrong tell me i'm wrong i i think because intelligence in consciousness god i'm gonna channel max are we we still don't understand what it is and i think okay when that third level ai which a lot of people don't think it'll ever be able to exist if it did exist let's say it does in your experience is that a term of art that like there's three like that's that's

Merlinthere's like ideas of like levels of sophistication and independence yeah yeah first first level ai

Alexwould be like um you something shuts off because it thinks it's overheating like um uh like like the the dumbest of dumb art it's basically machines of any type uh second second would be alexa siri all that alexa stop um and third level is what we have not arguably not gotten into where something that's that's the turing test as deep as you can go um but so there is let's say

third level ai complete consciousness i if it is something benevolent as in and i don't mean like benevolence necessarily in the way we think of it but benevolence in that it's like okay I'm able to see how humanity and like biological things will be of use to us I think we're going to be able to be like yeah we're we're lesser beings it kind of sucks but also we might be

able to develop some sort of symbiotic relationship like there's a reason that life has existed for so long and let's say this ai has just been birthed it's like okay what can we use to our advantage and then um let's say capitalism is still a thing and we'll try not to fuck it up it's like okay what what can we use to our advantage that makes ourselves better uh because we all are cyborgs by like the definition it's we already are and i don't think i i do think that johnny ive he

Merlindoesn't i didn't know if you were being this is this is getting to the point that i was failing

Alexkind of failing to make i didn't know if you were serious about the meat bag thing no i was being

Merlinserious i was being serious and i was so basically the thing i was trying to say that i know was a stretch but it's that that i think the people at apple are ashamed of the meat world and i think when they have to do things like answer developers who don't like the keyboards on the computer i I think that frustrates them because they think meat, human meat is, and all of the, and all these feelings and all these desires and wanting ports. I likened extra ports to being extra. I know. It was very good.

Speaker AThey think, right?

MerlinBut they think the fewer of these we have, the more pure thing. But like, it all comes back to meat. I think this is a very John Syracuse-esque point in a lot of ways is like, you could make the most beautifully designed, you could have an AI design a remote. It doesn't mean it's going to feel as good as the TiVo peanut remote from 2000, because that is really made for a dumb human hand. And that was its competitive advantage. And when they refuse to, like, acknowledge that their keyboards suck and there aren't enough ports for power users, I think that the point I was trying to make, and you can tell me what you think, was that that's because they secretly despise the world of meat.

AlexI think there's a real disconnect. There's got to be a disconnect in the company, like along those lines of like, we like the meat because that's what people want. That's why we've made this tenor phone that is people are going to buy it. It's pretty. And they're still selling the MacBook Airs because that's what the meat people want. whereas there are the i i am always hesitant to compare anything to steve jobs because it's

Merlinjust derivative and silly i was i was stipulating that i think this very much began with him i think the idea of not having a button on the phone absolutely agree is like you don't you hate the world of meat they want you to basically they probably don't even want to have to deal with the fact that people have different voices but yeah we'd really prefer you use your voice over

Alexyour meat fingers and that feels very steve to me and i think that like his his design children basically are of the same mindset. What's the Steve Jobs thing? Strong ideas held loosely, whereas Johnny Ives seems to be like, nope, never, nope, nothing, nothing.

MerlinAnd it doesn't seem facile to draw the comparison with Scott Forstall, who really was into this idea of, you know, this should look like stuff.

MaxI think the Steve Jobs idea was you want to take the idea and throw it in the fish tank. And then you go, Why can I see the fucking bubbles in the idea?

AlexMax is here.

MaxTrue that.

MerlinHey, Max is here. I just sent you, this is very quick before we talk about Max. I sent you.

AlexOh, he's got cards.

MerlinOkay. I sent you, this is, there are two things that you can do with Google Sheets and two actions, right? That part. You can either add a row to a spreadsheet or you can update a cell in a spreadsheet. The cell thing is crazy. That's what I'm showing you there. That's a crazy. yeah if you think about that you've really worked that out like think about the fucking ecosystem you could make for yourself where multiple i'm imagining multiple different kinds of things could then update a specific cell to be like the latest version of something as well as adding a row in another sheet that's kind of a powerful idea well that's the thing though it's not a

Alexpowerful it's whenever you say things are powerful it's almost really frustrating because usually What you mean is it's common sense that no, well, how do I, it's powerful, powerful because

Merlinit's, it's, it's less shitty than nothing, but it's not really like, holy shit, these are computers, man. We should be able to do fucking anything with these, but we have to have this third party service where we go in with our little meat fingers and then try to make this shit roll.

AlexIt's kind of like the whole Omni focus thing of like, oh my God, these tags are so powerful, but it's like, yeah, of course I only want to see things that I can only do right now.

Merlinduh um but like i don't know if you got that when i was texting you but the idea of having tasks and subtasks oh man there was a very considered decision many years ago to say look there was i might have been on me focus too but they basically said look no more having a project inside of a project and i was like oh no because projects and folders are really different things and sometimes a project has sub projects and i want those dependencies to all work together like no, we're not going to do that anymore. Context would be the only way to ever do this.

And I don't know, man. I kind of applaud their bravery for doing that because that was a tentpole value for them. Their biggest tentpole value was we don't want this to break and ruin your shit. But watching Tim fret over the way syncing worked was quite a thing to watch. But yeah, I don't know, man. I think it's a really neat app. Brent was kind enough to send me an NFR and holy shit, I love it. I actually said specifically Alex Cox was right. This is a really good app.

Speaker ASo good. Okay, over. What's going on? Hey, everybody. What's hacking election? What's going on?

MerlinOh, no. Oh, no. Frank Toilet. That's a stupid name. Can you imagine if there was a Frank Toilet? Frank Toilet, that's our guy, says Jen.

AlexHave you ever worked with professional actors?

MerlinA little bit, yeah.

AlexI've had the privilege to a lot, and they're always so nice. Oh, I see what you're saying, Because like the people that are in these videos. Oh, no, no, no. That's definitely real man for sure. I'm just talking about real actors in general. But I've had the privilege. They never have Big E goes. They're always very kind unless they're comedians.

MerlinThey're gamers, man. I mean, gamers in the sense of they'll do the thing you want.

AlexAnd I am always, I don't know how to ask. I forget that people are there just to listen to me, to tell them what to do over and over and over again.

MerlinYeah, they want to know what you want with specificity.

AlexThat's kind of where they shine. They're going to throw that Captain Marvel shield all day long.

MerlinYep. When Captain Marvel throws her mighty shield. Oh, I never want to be famous. Oh, fuck that. Oh, believe me. It becomes less and less appealing. Faux shizzle. Woo! No, thank you.

AlexMax, do you like being famous?

MaxYeah, what's it like, Max? I don't know how you're qualifying famous here. I don't know that I would just... Spoken like a famous person.

AlexWhat's the threshold here? Merlin has more Twitter followers than I do. He's been on Twitter longer.

MaxI'm just saying Merlin is more famous than I am. What are you saying I'm famous? I was on PBS local news last week talking about that one poll I did.

MerlinSuper defensive.

MaxYeah, you look good. I'm just saying why am I famous? You're famous. Alex, aren't you famous? Aren't we talking about this on your podcast? Yeah, Alex is famous. What's it like to be famous?

AlexWhat even is it like, Alex? People love you. No, I just think it's very interesting. It's, okay, how do I not be a dick? You don't have to. You're not going to be a dick. It's very weird to go to places where suddenly you're walking around and literally everybody recognizes you. And like Max, at gaming conventions, when I'm trying to get you to a place, we have to leave like two hours before not because max is late because everyone that's max temkin that's max

temkin and the first time i met max temkin i do you remember this max it was very bad do they always

Maxsay he's taller than i thought i think it's um i'll say so here's what i'll say about this but so first of all i think it helps i just think you have to have perspective on it of like what you know i don't know it's you know how do i describe it's like it's all relative You gotta remember you're not real.

It's like the two There's like this Buddhist joke of the two guys who are walking alongside the river and they run across each other and the one guy yells to the other and he goes, hey, how do you get to the other side of the river? And the other guy goes what are you talking about?

He goes, wait, so how do you get to the other side of the river? And he goes, oh, what are you talking about? You are on the other side of the river. Yeah, right. That's the joke. That's good. And then he yells, Google me. It's just like, it's always relative to your perspective. So you're saying you walk around a convention hall and people stop me, but holy shit, if I try to walk around a convention hall with Pat Rothfuss or Will Wheaton or someone. Oh my God.

MerlinOr John Podortz, who frequently gets his delivery orders brought to him wrong.

MaxI would say that the metaphor is more of that the fans are to Will Wheaton what John Podortz is to some sort of Chinese takeout.

Speaker Alike he's gonna be grabbing at them if he sees them do not fuck up disorder he did it again on twitter the other day he did it again amc he's like why can't i get my treats in a timely fashion

Maxit is very it is very funny although it's a choppo it's a choppy bit we shouldn't steal their bit

Speaker Abut uh oh no but no but it's a true thing it's like he gets on twitter and gets all mad about

Maxum sir no so um it's it's relative right because when will goes to a convention he has security people who like physically have to kind of clear a path for him because people swarm. And that's a scary love. That's a Beatles level of fame. So I don't, I look at that and I'm like, thank God, I don't have that going on. But I have a good level of fame where, you know what, when we did this cards launch, we used this typeface and we did not have the web license for the typeface. And the web license for the typeface would have cost, I think, like $7,000.

And cards is a big company, but we're not spend $7,000 on a font big.

Merlinyou don't get rich by spending money

MaxI mean regardless that's just

Merlinwe just couldn't no I mean seriously every dollar is made of dimes man you can't just fucking spend $7,000 all the time that's how you stay poor

Maxand also just for one font for one project like it's just impossible so we emailed the font foundry and I kind of begged them and I was like hey it's Max from Cards Against Humanity like we love this font and we really want to use it would you donate the license and they did it was sharp shout out to a sharp type foundry who donated their new typeface sharp grotesque Oh, I love them. Which is really beautiful. Good for them. And they donated it to us. And we were kind of amazed that they did. It was extremely kind and nice of them. And yeah, but that's a good level of fame, right?

Like if I had asked that five or 10 years ago and I was like, hey, it's Max. They would have been like, fuck off, right?

AlexHey, it's Max Stepkin. Right.

MaxThey would have been like.

AlexI'm Max Stepkin.

MaxYou might have my father, professor. I would have been like, yeah, I have a small following on Tumblr. And they would have been like, go fuck yourself.

Speaker ASo that's a good level of fame of like being able to.

MerlinHave you seen my pregnant Sonic Vore fic? That's a good amount. That's a good amount.

Speaker ADo you guys listen to Slow Burn? Yeah.

MerlinIt's really, really good. And today's episode, which I was listening just as Alex called me. They're all brutal in their way. Maybe not as brutal as season three of Serial. But today's episode, they're getting into Monica Lewinsky as famous slut that people write jokey songs about. And it's so fucking hard to listen to. It was heartbreaking. Listening to Anita. Did you hear it? Yeah, the Howard Stern song about her. Or listening to Anita Hill yesterday on All Things Considered. consider and you're like man anybody out there you know even going back to the 90s like you're

you're one bad day away from your name becoming synonymous with something that you don't have any

Speaker Acontrol over and it is it is i do you know it's worth keeping in mind um ah fuck what's that what's

Maxthe album where it's like it was like the cd that came out and then everyone's like there's never going to be a an album that sells as much of that as as this one cd jim talking about brothers in arms uh that can't be the dire no brothers in arms was famous because brothers in arms was famous

Merlinbecause it was the first i believe the first ddd it was the first pure digital uh cd i think oh i

Maxsee what you're saying no there's one album that's like not i want to say it's in sync or something

Alexlike that i think it was celebrity by in sync i think that's right and i was gonna make it

Maxthere's basically a famous graph of like here's the peak don't don't hide your candle under a It was the last big CD that came out before MP3s, right? And so it's like there's just never going to be an album that sells this much. It will never happen again. And so that's it. It peaked there.

And wait, what the fuck were we talking about?

MerlinFirst week sales of 1,879,000 copies.

MaxWhat were we talking about before this, being famous?

MerlinFame, fame, fatal fame. It plays hideous tricks on the brains. I'd still rather be famous than righteous or holy any day, any day, any day.

MaxFrankly, Mr. Shankly, since you asked. I don't know where I was going with that story. I had something I was going to. You're talking about context. Yeah, it was after that.

AlexDo the cards into the mic, please.

MaxOh, no, I don't want to do that. I don't remember what the fuck we were talking about. Anyway, it's an incredible blessing to get to do something that. Anita Hill. Thank you. That was it. Okay, so now edit this together so I sound like I have a coherent thought and I haven't slept for two hours every night for the last week.

AlexYeah, you're telling Alex's story.

MaxNo, no, no. So listen, so just like the NSYNC is the biggest selling album of all time because then the world changed right after it, I think Monica Lewinsky is going to go down as the most unfairly made fun of person. Because right after that, now we move on more. Now there's more stuff to make fun of, right? But she was the last one where there was like a vector for everyone to make fun of her, but then like also not enough stuff out there to divert attention. Does that make sense?

MerlinDo you include in that stuff like Star Wars Kid or Charlie Bick My Finger or whatever?

MaxNot to minimize the unfair making fun of that they received, but do you think it was comparable to Monica Lewinsky?

MerlinWell, I mean, an example from last week that is very indicative of the fucked up nature of 50 million things, the guy shaving on the subway.

AlexI did not even see that. I actually think that speaks to it of there are so many people.

MerlinWell, I mean, the short version. Well, the short version is that everybody had a lot of fun with video or photos. I don't even know of this kind of middle aged or older guy with shaving cream on his face, shaving on the subway. and everybody was like, oh my God, can you believe this? And believe me, I've taken photos of people trimming their toenails on Muni. So like I had one time, one time, two times, first time I was in the New York Times was for photographing a man urinating in public. So believe me, I understand. Oh yeah, he was peeing right outside the library where my kid goes.

The photograph captured by Mr. Man. Okay, so moving on.

MaxThat's how the New York Times always calls people, Mr. Blank. Cooperate. When they write about the musician Meatloaf, they refer to him as Mr. Loaf.

Speaker AMr. Loaf is my father.

MerlinSo, okay, you can see where this is going. And everybody had a lot of fun with that. That's the kind of thing any of us will look at and go, oh my God, what has fucking happened to society? This fucking man who lives in Manhattan is shaving on the subway. What is happening? And of course, there's a turns out. And the turns out is that he is a homeless man who had just gotten out of a shelter and was trying to clean himself up. And then the course the part that made me want to fucking stab my eyes out was like political Twitter as one going Oh, see yeah, this is how bad people are. I'm like, come on

MaxAnd I'm gonna take I have a big I have a brave bold John Oliver stance that I'm gonna I don't fucking care if he was homeless or not It was still wrong to shave on the subway car and it was still gross and I don't you just blew my mind I don't know who get wait a minute. It's like it's like upsetting to shave to throw your shaving cream with little beard follicles in it on the floor of the subway. And it doesn't matter whether you're home. You don't get a free pass for that. If you're homeless. Go into a fucking bank bathroom. Go into a fucking hotel bathroom.

Bring a Chicago tribute. And then you flush the whole disposable razor down the toilet and walk out clean. But you see what I'm saying? Like, I understand. I know that everyone made fun of him on social media, but I just I do think I'm going to sound like an alt-right guy here. But I think there's such—

MerlinIt was so—like the phrase we use in the South, butter wouldn't melt in your mouth. So many fucking people on Twitter who were like, oh, boo.

Speaker AAnd you're like, come on, give me a fucking break.

MaxYou people are the worst. Like, you would totally make fun of somebody about this. It's because of the sport that has happened. The game on social media now, like one of the implicit games on social media, is to like invent a person who could be offended by a thing that happened that does not exist. So you're sort of defending the valor or the interests of a group that may not exist and never asked for your help. And I see this all the time where they're like, what if? And they say, what if a trans youth read this? How would they feel? And it's like, why don't you fucking listen to the trans youth and see what issues they want help with?

MerlinSo this whole notion of this whole notion in a different in a different age, we would refer this to this as the starving African child. Like you come up with something that's going to shut down the entire conversation because, or really, let's talk about the Holocaust. You come up with some example of something so extreme. And then you make that, as they say, the starving black child, where now you have this little prop that you can insert whenever you want to shut down the conversation because this

Maxcould be the worst thing in the world. I don't mean to sound all right about this because I'm not saying that nobody should be offended by anything. But all I'm saying is there's enough bad things out there that actually exist that I think people should go ahead and take it. And continue to exist. have existed for years and keep continuing to exist we have plenty on our plate take the extra step of listening to the help that people want instead of inventing a victim class that to to ride into battle and defend most of the time people are not asking for that they're actually

Alexpretty explicit about their needs and their wants i oh this is i am i had a teacher i my one of my professors in college he his favorite fucking line was oh it's our job to be the voice of the voiceless and i fucking i i've never been so disgusted with the person constantly constantly and and he and he's talking to a group of marginalized tell us how can we help you

he's talking through he's literally talking to a this straight white guy who he's sending all of his kids to fucking brown and you're at talking to columbia college chicago where everybody can't pay their bills it's like yes guys we need to be a voice to the voiceless and he's talking to a bunch of gay and black kids and kids who can't afford to be there and we also would make us make films about what he was like okay no i see oh this was he literally said one time nobody in here

is a transsexual so we should all make films about what it would be like to be a transsexual what the fuck is wrong with you like i anyway uh let's imagine let's just have let's just explore

Merlinthe space a little bit is there even no no i'm agreeing like is there even a thing like let's

Aleximagine oh let's imagine we're dragons like it's just it's so strange it was like in in john ronson's book of like i i tried to dress like a woman but i just felt too much shame and so i did okay uh

Merlinuh how how is everybody what's like you make a tantamount to saying like uh you know i just i tried to be a vegan or something hey it didn't work out it was a real bummer there's no place near where I work that has good vegan food and also vegan food sucks so it's real hard but I'm

Alexvery I'm very up for the struggle yes queen oh all right back back back to boring Alex how's everybody doing today see that letter the president happened it's in the doc that I wasn't in now I'm in I'm in here.

MerlinNo, no. No, it's our super secret. Oh, okay. Traditional for the president to send congratulatory letters to boys who have reached the rank of Eagle Scout. This is so upsetting. Parents or troop leaders. Yes. What is this? Parents or troop leaders request these letters. It's a really cool thing. This is true. This is the kind of thing the White House has been able to do at scale since probably the 40s, right? You just send out a bunch of letters. It's just a nice thing. You get a letter from the president that was auto-signed by some kind of bot. But the point is, it's a nice thing. It's traditional for the president to send congratulatory letters to boys who have reached the rank of Eagle Scout.

Parents or troop leaders request these letters. It's routine. Here's the letter my friend's son received from Donald J. Trump. And it's an image of a letter on White House stationery, April 18, 2018. I appreciate you taking the time to send me your thoughts and suggestions. Melania and I joined the nation in celebrating the life of Barbara Bush. as a wife mother grandmother military spouse and former first lady mrs bush was an advocate of the american family uh yeah uh requires nurturing protection she'll be long remembered yeah so basically they can't even fucking get automated letters this is good job eagle boy

Alexokay all right i did not fully understand what was going on this is what went to eagle scouts as, oh. I guess so. With, what is that photo of the flag in the corner?

MerlinThat's probably like, yeah, you get lots of gear and flair when you're in scouts. There's a lot of flair. My dad was an Eagle Scout and he had a silver beaver. Keep it to yourself. Yes, he was a high level scout, my father. So he had lots of gear. He had lots of gear and flair.

AlexWere either of you scout boys?

MerlinI was a cub boy.

AlexSo you were the bottom? What's that mean?

Merlinoh boy i'm sorry i was a cub scout for a couple years i didn't particularly like it but i felt obligated to do it because my dead father had done it and i thought i should do it and i didn't particularly love it i don't like group activities and i never have but you know we did uh skits and stuff and we uh you know help people it was fine not sketches skits what is i am genuinely curious

Alexlike what was like here's what you do if you put a need to put out a forest fire what does what

Merlindoes that mean well you get a really cool book depending on where you are whether you're a bobcat a wolf a bear you get i'm sorry okay let me start over i mean a bossy bottom is a cub who likes his kerchief tight um you get these books and you get merit badges and stuff my daughter did uh uh what's the one not brownies but the one before that she did scouts for a while She super hated it. It's a lot of like sitting around in a room with other catty girls and it's just kid stuff.

AlexYeah. Do you ever scout? Either of you? I was a brownie.

MerlinYou were a brownie.

AlexWhat?

MerlinI was a brownie. Did you get one of those cool waistcoats?

AlexOh, I got one of those brown vests. And our... Were you an overachiever? No. I actually truly hated it. It was real, real dumb. and uh like you know how you're supposed to go on like camping trips and like learn that bullshit we would go on field trips to the businesses that people um like like the parents of the the brownies ran so at one point we went to uh to to culver's that my uncle was the franchisee

i don't know he owned a culver's um what is that is that like a restaurant oh you don't know what Oh, okay. I apologize. No, it's only in the Midwest.

MerlinOf course I've been to Culver's. I'm just saying this because I'm an idiot.

AlexSorry. What is Culver's? I'm sorry. Culver's is a Midwest fast food institution almost beloved as much as Steak and Shake. And they're known for, I don't know what they're called. They're Butterburgers, but I always get chicken tenders, of course. Butterburgers.

Speaker AButterburgers.

Speaker BLarge Mac.

Speaker ABon, bon, bon, bon. Saturday is treat day. Saturday is treat day. Saturday is treat day. I will feed like a mumbum mumbum.

Mumbum mumbum mumbum. Large max. Crispy hoisin owl.

Speaker BSaturday is treat day. Potato.

Speaker AHave you seen this, Alex? Pork cylinders. Pizz up. Are you playing it right now? Pizz up. Please show it. Show it to Alex. We'll cut this out.

AlexWhat is... I knew...

Speaker AThe results have been incredible. Incredible. Actually, the camera's over here.

MerlinI'm not watching it. I've just seen it so many times.

Speaker AHave you seen the one with the diet pill that you have to keep in the refrigerator and it turns into a backpack?

MaxNo.

Speaker AOh, God. They're so fucking funny. The Butterfield...

MaxThis is called... It's one of my favorite YouTube videos. It's the Butterfield Diet. I say... That's one of those ones where I say the lines from that. all the time in my everyday life. We say it all the time. Bum, bum, bum, bum. Anytime I even see pizza under my breath, I always go, PZA. PZA.

AlexPlease show it. Please show it right now. I'm looking for the diet pill one.

Speaker AOh, Brian Butterfield. There's one that's also over he helps you go to sleep

Alexby coming to your house. There's a whole Butterfield

Merlininfomercial cinematic universe out there.

AlexOh, man.

MerlinYeah, yeah, yeah. There's tons of these on you. Oh, here it is. Go do Brian Butterfield Ultra pill.

AlexAll right. Brian Butterfield. Let's just hear some of this.

Speaker Bsegments. One for breakfast. A perfect start to your diet. One for lunch. Mmm. Nutritious and delicious.

AlexAnd, of course, dinner. Okay, that's enough. I can't. Oh, my

MaxGod. I'm putting ice cubes. Did you guys talk about what happened with Front of the Show Anita this week? No. One of the funniest things that's ever happened to me. I think I got cast out. No, you really didn't. It was genuine. So Anita, a friend of the show, Anita Sarkeesian, who joined us for the episode where we made hummus, was listening to a recent episode where we discussed OmniFocus.

MerlinWe have a separate super secret channel where sometimes a guest who's been on will continue to talk to us when it's relevant. Yeah. It's a nice thing.

MaxIt's a nice thing to have a little friend. So what are our main ones? We've got our channel with the Microbiology Boys with Dr. Don.

AlexYeah, or the Hummus Boys.

MaxThe Hummus Boys with Anita. We've got one with Todd Vaziri, don't we?

AlexOh, I don't think so.

MaxTodd's ever present.

MerlinAnyway, how did it start? Anita was... Oh, she heard us talking about OmniFocus.

MaxShe was like, should I use OmniFocus? So we were all kind of giving her advice on OmniFocus, and I think she got it. And we were explaining...

MerlinYeah, I mean, we each give an advice, and I said, you know, it's kind of heavy. It's a lot.

MaxIt's something to learn, but it's extremely powerful. And you guys were like, yeah, this is a really good app. You should check it out. And then a few minutes later, Anita was like, yeah, this is awesome. And then she was like, but we can all agree Inbox Zero is bullshit, right? and and i immediately knew i was like oh anita has no idea that marlon has when i kept saying

Merlinoh my god over and over i want you i hope alex got this you have to hear that in in bob belcher's

Maxvoice oh my god oh my god oh my god i was i was fucking losing it i had to i like got when when that thing was when that thing was going on i got up out of my seat and i was walking in circles i I was like, this is so funny.

MerlinWell, it's got a lot. You had to get how funny it is. You would have to explain a lot about history and stuff. But it's pretty goddamn funny that two people would be. She would be like, my mostly discarded idea from a long time ago that I got tired of talking about because everybody willfully chose to misunderstand it. She goes, I think, because we all agree this is bullshit.

AlexOh, God. oh my god oh my god god it would be like on it being on a text chain with max and they're like man what a ripoff of apples what's apples to apples exactly oh yeah it's a lot like apples to apples put my phone down why don't you just want to cooperate

Merlinwith game developers that want to put your game on steam why is this even a problem don't you

Alexwanted to accept the compliment um it's okay to put tweets in the books anita goes do we all agree

Maxthat inbox zero is bullshit and then i just reply with the like crying laughing emoji and merlin goes oh boy and then anita goes i'm just saying if i respond to everything in my inbox i will get a response from all of those people and then and then merlin goes oh boy and i go that's a great point anita and then i said merlin why did you famously say to reply to every email in your inbox because I've seen the inbox zero talk at Google and basically for 45 minutes

Speaker AI just said stay in your email until you reply to everybody never leave

MaxI think I remember you saying you have to reply to everything

Merlinyou have to get to inbox zero

Speaker Ayou're not going anywhere you're not going to take a shit you have to get to inbox zero

Maxkeep replying to emails and then Merlin goes Max put you up to this didn't he this is my favorite thing that's ever happened and then eventually i and then we kept going for a while and then i was just like merlin coined the phrase inbox zero and his original talk on it is great but widely misunderstood and then merlin goes oh my god oh my god oh my god and then it was so funny and then he goes did you really because this would be the funniest thing ever if that's true and merlin just goes oh my god and then i should have just said actually

MerlinIt's about ethics in video game journalism.

Speaker AGood night, everybody. Okay. Oh, boy.

AlexChallenge. Challenge. Oh, I have so many feelings about this challenge. Max, it was your challenge this week.

MaxIt was my challenge. And the challenge was to do. Well, I said the original idea was to set your when you get your new iPhone. The challenge for this week.

Speaker ABuy a $1,500 phone.

Alex$1,500.

Speaker APizzle. Pork cylinders. Meat pies.

AlexOh, boy.

MaxLarge Macs.

AlexLarge Macs.

Speaker ACrispy Hoeser now. Oh, boy.

Merlinwas that if you're getting a new phone, do the thing where you start from scratch. You're not going to move. Go new phone, start from zero.

MaxInbox phone zero. And my idea, I do this with every new phone, and the reason is that I like to, to me it's a moment to review, do I need all these accounts? Do I need all these apps? Do I need all these notifications? Do I need all of these application access options? So you know how when you put an app on, it's like it wants your photos, it wants your contacts, It wants this. It wants that. I like redoing that from scratch every year because when I get a new phone, because it makes me now that I know what all these apps do and how much I use them, I can make a more educated decision every year about like, does this thing actually need my contacts?

And I obviously I guess I want as little of that as possible.

MerlinWell, can I say I know this is a somewhat controversial point of view, but it's kind of like the weirdly freeing feeling of like losing a credit card. Oh, yeah. You get to start completely over. Yeah, so true. And you realize how much shit is just running over and over on your card. And you're like, no, actually, I'm just going to let that go.

MaxI like the feeling of a clean slate. So I have my new phone right here. And I can look at this phone. And I know every single app that I chose to put on this phone. I know what it does and how I use it. And there's no app on it. Right at this moment, there's no app on this phone that I don't need. Now, over the course of the year, I'm going to put a bunch of bullshit on here that I'm playing with. And it'll stay in a folder and whatever. It'll get like every phone over time. But I love this feeling right now. It feels, I don't know. I know it's not, I know it performs the same.

It's just, I like the cleanliness of like, I know what all this stuff does and it's just what I need.

MerlinCan I just say in passing, I'm not, I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I would just say that I think there are numerous benefits and downsides to either option, just in fairness. like what you're describing is great um if you have the time to get it all set up i would not do that before you get on a plane to go away for a few weeks you need to have time to make sure all your shit is on there and i agree with you it can be really good the reason i don't do that is well first of all i'm a crap hound and i just keep stuff around but there is also the evolution of

ios has gotten us to a point where it is pretty seamless to just say take that device and turn it into this device. So that's one reason I think people do that. And I would still say to everybody out there, no matter what your choice is, have at least two backups. Have at least an iCloud backup. I mean, don't be crazy about this just because your pal Max said it. Do an iCloud backup and do a full encrypted iTunes backup, please,

Maxbefore you decide to just strip everything down. I actually still have my old phone. So if something, if the... Okay, like everybody. Do most people trade their phone? Is it like a car? Like you trade your old phone in before you get the new one?

AlexYes. A lot of people.

MerlinIt depends. A lot of people. You can get at least $500 for your old phone. Not many people have a $1,500 phone.

MaxBut eventually I'm going. But this week, now that I'm done with the transition, I actually usually just give away my phone to a friend who needs a phone. But I will give away my old phone. I'm not going to always have two phones. But just for this one week, that's not unreasonable, is it?

AlexIt's not.

MerlinNo, no, it's not at all. When people make fun of me because I've got two Apple Watches, well, yeah, I've got two Apple Watches. I got the Apple Watch I just bought and the Series 2 that I bought I don't even know how many years ago. So is the responsible thing for me to just throw that away? Like yeah, I'm a two watch guy because what would I do with the old watch?

MaxGive it to someone who needs a watch.

MerlinNo, she's getting one for her birthday.

AlexWe have like a big system in my family where, you know, Alex buys the big expensive treat every year and then like it goes to Maddie and then it goes to my mom and then it goes... That's what I do with phones. Oh, they have an iPad Air 2 because Nobody wants that one. I don't know why it's a great great i'm so sorry i'm so sorry

MerlinThe rendering of the goldfish is so

MaxThat's a bad level of fame to get is whenever you post something about your animals online people reply that are like the animal welfare experts and they're like actually It's you know what I'm talking about Imagine a animal where it's like actually it's bad to pet the cat in that way can't Lena Dunham just kill some animals

Merlinor give them away without being bugged by people.

AlexOh, I got some people who slid into my DMs who were like, you know, your cats could get really sick if they ate you after you died. And I'm like, okay, thank you for your message. Thank you for your message. I liked that.

MerlinDid you, oh shit, what was I gonna say? Phone, phone, I forgot what I was gonna say.

AlexNevermind, cut this out, go ahead. I do not have my watch yet. It's on the way. So before we- It's so good.

Maxit's so good the apple this leap of of old apple watch to this apple watch is about as big of a change of of of goodness of an apple project it's like going from one to two it's big it's a big deal

Merlinit's a big change and the screen i mean i i have the big boy watch but like i know this sounds so dumb and i keep saying this over and over but it's so amazing uh i used to have to think a lot more about typing in my code and now it's just like it's this huge screen and i never have any problems hitting the target that I want.

AlexOh, and the little turning crown. I know, my code's not going to be 6969 anymore. I'm very excited. So the Apple Watch is supposed to, when

Maxyou put it on, if your phone is unlocked, it's supposed to unlock the Apple Watch. And in practice, that's never worked for me. I always have to key in the little code with my fingernail. Oh, that's right. It is supposed to do that, isn't it? I'm telling you, with the Apple Watch 4, it just works now.

AlexI don't know what happened. No, it's because you haven't set up Apple Pay yet on it.

MaxOh, that's wild. Yes, I have. Look, it's right here. Oh. I'm telling you, it unlocks itself. Look, I'll demonstrate right now. So I'm going to take it off. It's locked.

AlexYou can see it's locked. It's locked. And now I'm going to put it

Maxback on my wrist. It needs to be contact your wrist to unlock, right? You can see it's still locked. But wait, the phone is locked. Now look, I face ID into my phone. I open up the phone. The phone is open. And now... And now... It's unlocked.

AlexOh, fuck. Wait, wait. Go to your apps.

MaxHmm. Go to Wallet.

AlexOh, fuck.

MerlinPull up the wallet.

AlexOh, fuck. Yeah, yeah. It just works. What are we doing wrong, Alex? Oh, no, I think it... I also haven't gone to watch it. Is it five? I don't know.

MaxI don't know what specific variable... If it's the hardware or the software or what. But I'm telling you, I... We're sure you can hear about it. I never have to put my... So, episode 98.

Speaker AYou have some misleading information. Boy, I like these.

MaxSend an SMS. I like these little curvy complications, too. I love my curvy complication. I like the modular one.

AlexYeah, I'm a modular one. Infograph modular.

MerlinDon't you like the little curvy boys? I will like it better when there's more complications that I can find useful, maybe. But, yeah, I don't need to know what the air quality is. Yeah, I don't think people knew.

MaxBut what if it's displayed in a little curved line graph? Oh, that's a good point.

MerlinIf it's in a car, it's a line boy. Yeah. Okay. That's pretty good. Anyway, when's yours coming?

AlexI don't know. I might be that bad. Actually, someone made a shortcut to, and I check, I have this shortcut to run every day called Watchstock. And what it does is checks all the Apple stores in my area for the model I want, 44 millimeter stainless steel Nike, whatever. and uh look at you money bags wow no aluminum no no no it's a nike no no no no no no um although

i did try on the space gray stainless steel with the like the black melanese lube i bet it's i made a noise that definitely made the apple watch guy uncomfortable for merlin merlin 10-4 no no this is the worst thing that's ever happened no uh i will say the walkie-talkie oh i got do not disturb Walkie-talkie is not my favorite thing that has come to the watch. Everybody wants me to add them. Boy, we had an experiment with that, didn't we?

Speaker AI talked to Matchy.

AlexI talked to Matchy over your watch. Wow. I never want to. Wow. So, Merlin, what's walkie-talkie?

MaxWait, you added Merlin on walkie-talkie, but not me?

AlexYeah, no, I did. I did. It's a terrible mistake. Breaker, breaker, good buddy. This is your old pal, Merlin. What's your toy?

Speaker AIt says Merlin is not responding. Could not connect to a cox.

MerlinOh my god, it says could not connect to a cocks

MaxMerlin this is max. This is temkin max come in over ten-four all right come on Come on come on come on through. Why is it not coming through? Oh god damn it. I hit the wrong thing do it again

AlexFuck me gently says Merlin. It says connecting to Merlin. Oh, it says I have invited you Max in the actual walkie-talkie app

MaxConnecting to M Temkin. This is a disaster. I hate to see what I do with it I'm enchanted by this I think it's great I can't believe you guys don't like it

AlexAlex

Maxwhat the walkie talkie is the worst

AlexI would love it if it was a proximity thing or you could temporarily like what is it find my friends turn it on and I think this is the problem it says connecting to Merlin so it's one of those things like we're calling each other oh no I'll tap you when I'm ready

Merlinoh gosh I'll tap you when I'm ready. You do that. Connecting to ACOX. Okay, I'm going to close that now. And I'm going to put the Do Not Disturb back on. I love the Do Not Disturb until I leave this thing or stop this event. I love it.

Max10-4. I love it. This is Max. Come in. This is Max. Okay. All right. Over.

MerlinWaiting, waiting. I'm coming.

MaxIt's chiming at me. It's making more cricket sounds.

MerlinI'm getting chimies.

AlexI also want it to make the traditional walkie-talkie noise. Like the bleep-bop is not good.

MerlinOh, no. I think I'm calling you accidentally. Oh, no. What have I done now?

AlexNo, no, close that.

Speaker AOh, God.

MerlinOh, it's a stop. Hand on face. Oh, God. So, did you see what I did on Friday that worked out?

MaxDid you see how crazy that was? Wait, Merlin, I walkie-talkied you at one point, and I put into it like a two-minute clip of a John Philip Sousa marching band. I did not get your march music. I sent it at like one in the morning.

MerlinIt might have been a buffer overrun. Oh, no. Oh, I like this. I placed the same day delivery order to Best Buy on Friday, and it arrived at 3.30 p.m. It worked?

AlexOh. That's great.

MerlinThat's fucking crazy, and it worked. And then, like, as I was watching through the day, you know, I was saying this to see what you said last night, but, like, whenever you order something, there's that feeling where you're, like, it seems permanently stuck on the first thing, and you're like, is this a JPEG? Does this actually do anything? It says preparing for hours. And I'm like, oh, this is not going to happen, is it? I should stop looking at this. But then it's like, oh, it's off for delivery. Boop-a-doop-a-do. um so you're gonna get your watch later you're gonna love it you're 44 you're getting yeah because

Alexall my bands it's it's worth it it's nice getting more soon getting more soon getting more soon best buy oh boy um yeah i'm i'm a fancy duchess who can't wait two weeks

Speaker Ai will require an apple watch you're there you're there boys it's still christmas day

Maxi think we're gonna get some comment of like what if a duchess listened to the episode and felt attacked.

AlexOh, my God.

MaxThe speculative Dutchess that you're hurting.

MerlinOh, no, I feel so bad. We're so not woke

Alexabout the Dutch eye. Oh, Max, did you get the phone that is your namesake?

MaxOh, I did. So I got the big and the small and the small came on lunch day and the big came on yesterday. And I have not... The big came on yesterday. And I set the small one up right away when it came. I tore the wrapping off and just set it up. and I'm not going to set up another phone. I'm just going to return the big one. So this generation, I'm going with the regular small size phone.

AlexInteresting.

MaxI was undone by my own need for immediate gratification.

AlexMerlin, what's...

MaxYou were foisted on your own. We don't say that anymore.

AlexWe can't... Dotaard. Nope, nope. Moving on. Can I...

MerlinCan we wait one second and let me get my stupid phone? I'll be right back. I'll be right back. I'll be right back.

MaxDo we make small talk with each other?

AlexOh, no, never, never. What about the sports teams? The sports did something.

MaxOkay, I'm going to see a card trick.

AlexYou missed a lot of, yes, yes, yes. I'll show you one after the show. Oh, God. Merlin, Max has become like a neg with card tricks. I never know when he messes. You might not know if a card trick is even happening. I hate it. It's very upsetting. Wait, what am I doing? What do you hate? Because it's like your bit now. Oh, no, I messed up. Oh, wait.

MaxWell, most of the time I am messing up and then I'm fixing it in a clever way.

AlexI think it's a combination though, which is very good.

MaxNo, most of the time they're genuine screw ups, but then I can fix it to do something else.

AlexIt makes it even better.

MerlinUnlock Apple Watch with iPhone. I feel like I used to have it. Open the settings, unlock with phone.

AlexSo do you not have your phone next to you when you're recording? No, I'm doing a show. I'm a professional. Oh, I thought a bunch of Pokemon by the time. Okay, so what have we gotten?

MerlinYeah, I'm playing Clash Royale right now.

AlexYeah, let's see. I'm sorry I'm late.

MerlinLet me go to open the settings, scroll to the bottom list, and look for passcode. It says unlock with phone.

AlexOh.

MerlinMaybe I'll turn it off and on. Turn it off, turn it on. Enter the passcode on your Apple Watch. I can do that. It's so easy now. Hope you didn't hear that. So the challenge was to...

AlexHold on. I have a really important piece of business, which is Merlin, when did you say was the time at which Max would be done with his new email app? November?

MerlinOh, well, I have I have I scheduled I scheduled an item for December. I said for three. I said, well, check in on three months.

AlexAnd because I'm sure I'm going to say check Max Max's Max phone on December. first you think you'll go to the big boy i think i and it's awful i know because i bought the big boy phone and returned it within 12 hours oh i'm not gonna have to keep the big phone i'm sure it's

Maxreally good i'm gonna return it as soon as i can uh so you know what's great is when you give it

Alexgive it to a needy cat i went to the apple store it just so happened that they had the uh exact phone I wanted but in normal people size and the looks that I got from people as I was returning the big phone it was wow oh like you failed? just anger and jealousy

Maxoh is it like hard, should I ebay it?

Alexoh no don't do don't do that I could make a little profit oh but Alex

Maxdid you consider that maybe I might donate the money to some homeless trans youth? why would I Why do you have to attack homeless trans youth on our podcast?

AlexYou know, Matchy doesn't have a new phone. Oh my God, Alex. I actually do. They have my new phone. Oh, man, this phone is so good. Okay. I'm going to say December 1st, Max will have the big phone. No, I'm not. I'm not going to have a big phone.

That's what makes it a bet. I will get Max a McDonald's. Max will get a McDonald's.

MaxIf I do or don't get the big phone.

AlexIf you don't have the big phone by then, you get a McDonald's.

MaxI said you wouldn't do it. That's the bet. If I return the $1,500 phone, I can get $4 in chicken McNuggets. Do I get to choose the sauce? Yes. $4 in apple box. Yes.

Speaker AAll right, I'm in. Bum, bum, bum, bones.

MerlinSo, challenge.

MaxAre you going to throw up? Alex just ran out of the room and I asked her if she was going to throw up and she just, holding her mouth closed, she goes, she went, I don't know. Could you grab a little field recorder and see if Alex is throwing up out there? I don't know, maybe we shouldn't do that.

MerlinI'm getting over something. I got a lot of snot.

MaxOh, boy, I have a huge nostril update for you. So remember I was getting that allergy testing? So I had a long consultation with the allergist. And he is he's an older guy who wears a bow tie and he knows a lot about allergies and noses. And he shared. He's seen some shit. Yeah. And I mean, I think he's I think he's been elbow deep in a couple of noses in his day. And he taught me some stuff about the nostril system. Oh, God. I have now have like insider nose knowledge to share with you.

I would love to hear this. OK, so the first thing is I just let me open up my little notes from our meeting. Do you take notes at the doctor's office? I don't go to the doctor. Oh, well, why would you? Okay, so the first thing I learned is there's a whole different second kind of allergic reaction that is not a histamine reaction that I think is called a leukotrine reaction. And if you have that, which is, I think, what he thinks I have, then if you take antihistamines and, like, over-the-counter allergy medicines, they do nothing for you.

MerlinOh, interesting. I get it. It's not bioavailable. It's a different— Leukotrine modifiers? Is that it?

MaxWe're now at the exact limit of the two sentences that I wrote down in my notes. But anyway, he thinks that might be what I have. So I'm going to take a different kind of allergy medicine and see if it improves my symptoms. And then here's the other thing. So the human nose operates on a three-hour cycle where one nostril is open and the other nostril is closed. What? And they are not both. Why was I never told this? I've never heard this in my entire life. They're not both. Did you throw up? That's just a metric for failure waiting to happen. Why are you throwing up?

What's happening?

AlexI have a lot of... Oh, boy. I'm just sick. Wait, am I going to get sick? No, you're not going to get sick unless you lick my tonsils.

Normally, I'm real great at throwing up, but there were some problems. Because someone took the mouthwash out of these bathrooms, so then I had to go to the other...

MaxYou can't put the mouthwash in the public bathrooms because people will drink it.

AlexI was like, oh, right, alcohol. And then I was like, okay, other side of the office. What? That happens?

MerlinYes, for sure.

AlexLike people who work there drink the mouthwash? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. We have mouthwash on the other side of the office. It's like the actual office-y part, but. Who's drinking your mouthwash? I don't think anybody has. Visitors? If we have an event in the theater or something.

MaxOh.

AlexOh, that's sad.

MaxWe have four restrooms that are our bathrooms for the office, and then we have two restrooms that are public restrooms. And we used to have, like, ibuprofen and mouthwash and stuff just available in the public restrooms, and then we realized that there was something.

AlexNothing happened, but we're like, oh, no, no, no.

MerlinWhy? Because somebody could steal it or hurt themselves? Yeah, they could hurt themselves, yeah. Okay. Oh, because somebody really didn't like the show. Yes, I am. Okay.

MaxSo the challenge was We were talking about the human nose Oh Human nose is on a Three hour cycle where one nostril is open And the other one is closed And the reason is Your open nostril is doing all this work Of like filtering out germs and pollens And allergens and things like that And it needs to rest And so there's like a rhythm just like your circadian rhythm Of your nostrils opening and closing one after the other And if it's all working correctly you don't notice it you have the sensation of just being able to breathe.

But if you abuse, I do not, if you abuse Afrin, like I do, where you're just blasting the Afrin and both of your nose holes, then you come to, then you, what you can do is force both of your nostrils to be open at the same time. And then you're like, that's what it feels like to not be congested. And at all other times I am congested when in fact you're not.

AlexDoes that make sense? Oh yeah. No, I do the same thing.

MerlinI guess so.

AlexThis is the,

Merlinso what he said, nasal cycle is the often unnoticed alternating partial congestion and decongestion of the nasal cavities in humans

Maxand other animals. So what the doctor said is it's okay to use an afrin occasionally as long as you don't get yourself addicted to it, but only use it in one nostril at a time. Do not put it in both nostrils. Is there an Internet of Things device that could let me know which one I should be treated? A smart afrin.

AlexHello. Oh boy. Hello. I have to say man nasal spray is great. It's one of the best drugs. Like I'm I'm terrible

Speaker AWhich one you like? Yeah, I'm very afraid of like I need a new thing to be dependent

AlexI think if you don't use it as long as you don't use it literally every day. I think you're fine Oh, I shouldn't get it

MerlinDid you ever get you ever get addicted to like Carmex? Oh, I'm a current

MaxI'm always addicted to car. I always have a Burt's Bees or Carmex or something going on. You know, you know how that works, right?

MerlinUm, no, it's like it's the aspirin it's got acetylacetyl acid in it and so like you get these little cracks and i guess it's almost like hormone replacement therapy like your your lips stop producing this stuff oh boy how did how

Alexdid the nose thing so the challenge this week was to set up a new phone i did set up my phone um yes wow that this was so stupid i am so mad um you can start over with start over and do the

Merlinchallenge over no no i'm sorry i'm and you can go back and restore you just say restore this and

Alexit'll totally restore it no actually i did this challenge twice because i got you know the big tennis and then returned it and then i'm like i don't know if this is true to the spirit of the challenge if i restore from that back up so uh you're so catholic so i did it twice um and it's I don't know. I'm pretty, I'm kind of stingy when it comes to installing apps. Or rather, I'm not stingy, but I have a recurring OmniFocus task that is just delete unused apps that have been like.

MerlinWhat?

AlexBecause I have a, I do have now a second screen because I like on betas and stuff.

MaxWhat do you do with your time?

AlexWhat?

MaxYou just, you just do a review every month of an OmniFocus project that's like delete your unused apps? That, no.

Alexit's a task it's it's a task not a project because it only is it takes distinction but isn't it more than one step no it uh i guess yes touch touch icon david allen say about that touch

Merlinicon boo he'd say boo what about trans cats do you have tags on it did you tag it alex no remember the re-tag task to remove apps i'm not using because what would happen if i left apps

Alexon my phone having for fend is it okay so so like for example there there's a there like a number of apps that i'm just testing out and if this sunday you've been on the beta for two or three weeks for yeah so if if this sunday i am not using an app i'm i'll be like boop boop you're you're gone and then i'm back to only one home screen i'll share my lovely home screen right now it's very good oh boy but but the thing is i was so upset because we it it used to be that this is something

i had to do it was just your phone would be wonky if you tried to restore from an iCloud backup or

Merlineven an iTunes backup oh yeah yeah like a long time ago for sure yeah it was not anything you'd want to trust and you never knew in my case it took like a month for all the apps to show up after the restore.

AlexYeah, it used to be pretty wonky. And now it's amazing. And it felt, I don't, I just, I came to appreciate iCloud. This was an exercise in liking iCloud. Well, also really liking 1Password and the iOS 12 feature where you can use keychain. Oh, is that a game changer or what?

MaxThe 1Password, auto 1Password nonsense is probably the coolest thing on the iPhone for me.

AlexIt's so cool.

MerlinHave you done it on your Apple TV yet?

AlexWhat?

MerlinYeah. So if you're using the remote dingus and you need to go in and for whatever, like Netflix sometimes just occasionally logs me out for no apparent reason. You just go and you click, you use your phone to do the dingus, right? Not using the stupid remote, the one on your phone. You go in and it'll say like, you know, yeah, it's really good. It's really good.

AlexOh, oh my goodness.

MerlinI probably didn't explain that well. When you are using either the control center thing or the actual remote app, I believe, you have the little touchpad and your phone becomes a touchpad and a keyboard entry thing. Sometimes I'll be using and searching for something on Hulu and my phone will vibrate and I'm like, ah! It's like, is there a keyboard available? Do you want to type? But yeah, yeah, it totally works with 1Password. That's pretty big.

AlexI always need to log back into my mom's HBO Go account. Game of Thrones is coming up.

MaxIs it?

AlexI don't know.

MaxPatriot's coming back, I think, in just a couple of weeks.

AlexYeah, that's going to be real good.

MaxWhat? Now my beloved Good Doctor is back. I just watched the first episode of season two last night. I love that show.

MerlinGood Doctor is part of the good-averse. So the challenge this week was to set up a new phone from scratch.

MaxMerlin, did you do the challenge?

MerlinNope. I still have my iPhone X, my iPhone X, which is fine. I mean, what I have to offer is very philosophical. What I tried to do is the thing I've been struggling with since the iPhone came around, which is that, you know, I've accumulated a lot of apps. I've got hundreds of apps on my phone, most of which I don't use. And it still continues to be a thing where there's just not a real simple way to delete a ton of apps. And as I sat there laying in bed last night thinking about this and feverishly thinking about this challenge, I just I I continue to.

Well, I don't carry on. I don't have to keep saying this. But I feel like there's some smart functionality that they could do for us that would help a lot. If apps are the way of the future, as they seem to think it is, I think increasingly that's not necessarily so. I have some deep philosophical questions about where apps are going as a thing.

As we talked about before Max was here, Alex, I think what constitutes an app and why you have an app is changing a lot. And I think it's a very interesting time. But like, I don't know. I mean, I want Hazel-ish smart organization of shit on my phone, which Siri is increasingly trying to do. The Siri service is increasingly trying to do. But God damn it, why is there not a place that I can go and see every app I haven't opened in a year and then say delete all? That's just, that feels like something that would be not that difficult to do. Why is there not an equivalent of a smart folder that automatically bubbles up every

app that I use 10 times more than all the other apps? It's just so onesie twosie. It's a long press and a click and another click to delete apps. And it's such a pain in the ass. And it's not like doing it via iTunes is that much better. But no, I mean. I forgot you could do that. Oh, boy. It's not fun. It's not fun. But no, I didn't do the challenge because I couldn't do the challenge. But I did try real hard to pare down some old stuff. And boy, have I got some old stuff on here.

AlexI actually did not reinstall Twitter or Facebook. I kept Instagram. Instagram keeps me happy. Like, I don't want to do the full CGP Grey Project Cyclops thing.

MaxCyclops. Project Cyclops.

AlexIt appeals to you, though. Oh, for sure. Project Cyclops is some... CGP Grey basically disappears from the internet about once a year. It's kind of his thing. And so he's... Man. He's quite... He's a very interesting character. The most recent episode of Cortex was... Oh, that was lit, dog.

Well, the H.I. about it was good, too.

MerlinI just the H.I. about like what led him there.

AlexI thought was actually for sure. And I'm I hope he's happy. I want him to be happy. And he doesn't seem happy. But I would love to not. I really don't look at it. Look at Reddit.

MerlinWhat Max what what CGP Gray said is that basically he does not want to even have the opportunity. He's troubled in part by, of course, all the usual bullshit about social media. he's troubled by his own inability to stop looking at things like hacker news and reddit but also uh i think one of the things that pushed him over the edge is he says you know he'd made this uh deliberate effort to try to read more and he's having trouble concentrating on reading just because he keeps going back to his phone and i i'm with him on all of that so he's trying to do

this thing where even though he's going to continue to make podcasts and theoretically make youtube videos he's um not going to look at uh social media things like there's all kinds the stuff he's just not even gonna look at it or listen to anymore it doesn't work for me it well

Alexand and his big thing though is i'm not going to listen to podcasts anymore which is you know uh

Merlini i don't he's gonna try to walk he's gonna try to like take walks and stuff without

Alexpodcasts he had a good video about it it was very good but mike just tore him a new one which i liked and i also liked that he was sort of clarifying his thought process about it and the hypocrisy part uh i see that's the thing i think hypocrisy is a very strong word because

Merlinthere's i think hypocrisy is bullshit but i think that's what people are going to say oh you fancy mr youtube guy with all the awards is out there you know having a gavage of bullshit for us but you won't do it yourself which i think is an extremely cynical thing to say well it was it

Alexwas more of the implicit i think on hello internet there was kind of sort of an implicit somewhat shaming of folks who like podcasts especially it's like oh god you listen to things in the shower and it's like well yeah that's how i like that's how i choose to engage in the world and like there's nothing wrong with people who don't read books like a lot of people don't or can't read books there's also nothing wrong with having an opinion you don't agree exactly and i mean this

Merlinis one of those kind of it feels like one kind of one of those overheated heated up reheated like oh let's figure out who we need to be mad about because they're problematic it's like well how about i just don't look at listen to podcasts for a while and then you don't mind

Alexright right but and especially i mean it's it is like i i do wish that yeah well and he also has the thing he's self-aware enough to be like i can't do this in moderation which is a i think a very healthy thing to know like totally agree that's the way john roderick quits everything Yeah, like my friends who are alcoholics, they know they're like, nope, just just can't do it. And I have other friends who are like, yeah, I'm going to stop drinking less. Like, I don't know. That's fine. You do you, buddy. But the one thing that did sort of it did bother me a little was the idea that this might be how society is going.

Like this might be a problem for everybody. And I don't know. I don't know about that. Like there's really no data to suggest like our attention spans are getting shorter. It's just that we have shorter content to consume. And I think that's the way that's that's the trend right now. And I think that that's going to change. And he even acknowledges in this video when people when people shit on media, they go to the best of the old media and the worst of the new media.

And again, I don't think it's hypocrisy at all. And I think the whole idea is very, very interesting. So that's why I'm only using TweetBot, which because I think I can do that in moderation because I have like my lists and I want to see what my friends are doing. And I want to see what people say about the stuff I make. And I'm OK with getting high off my own supply. Like I want to see all the nice things that people say about Kah Hacks the election because my friends and coworkers worked really, really hard on it. And I like seeing those things.

Um, but, but yeah, that was, I, I have in the past week, it has been nice. Um, especially because I did not know that you could still log into stuff, uh, via Facebook without having the Facebook app installed, which is great because so much bullshit is through Facebook. Um, yeah. Thought over the end. Yeah.

MerlinI wish there could be less feeling of this inevitable valence to fucking everything. that just, it's like, God, can we just all take a giant step back? And like, why does it have to bother people so much when somebody doesn't want to do the thing the way they want to do it? And even mention it. Oh, God forbid that you would actually mention that this is a thing. And it's like, I don't know, man. It's like that in some ways, I agree with everything you're saying, especially in terms of like, oh, God, believe me, growing up in the 70s, boy, you think TV was good then?

Like, no, not really. It really wasn't. Like, that's a really lame argument to make. Um, but it's, it's also like, I, I, I'm trying to reach a point in life. It's taking me years and years and years. I'm trying to reach a point in life where I stop evaluating fucking everything according to how it relates to me or makes me look like that's, that's such a terrible 14 year old boy way to look at the world is, is to immediately evaluate everything based on how it makes you feel or look. And the problem is everybody out there, all the people who love dragging out the word

hypocrisy are ultimately the people who are most terrified of being identified as a hypocrite. And so they all brigade all over these people to go like, oh, God, look at you, you know, the log in your eye. And it's like, ah, that's kind of the worst part. That really is, I mean, the shit that's out there that we all, you know, up to our knees that we dwell in every day is certainly terrible. Our own feeling of not being able to get away from it is terrible. But then the way we just, we all attack each other over this narcissism of minor differences this shit it's just it's so top toxic and so unnecessary and ultimately like as i like to say

from glengarry glenn ross what is this in service of like if that goes great and you've shamed a stranger because they made a different decision about their life like how does that work out great

Maxfor you well i think you're i think you hit the the uh the nail right on the head with with the the idea of identity i think that like so so i had a um i had a philosophy teacher who told me this at point and it was it was what it really it really really stuck with me i think about this all the time where he was like you know part of becoming part of getting good at philosophy and like advancing as someone who understands the material and like going from being like a freshman philosophy student to a junior philosophy student or whatever is you have to stop reading things in

terms of you look at an argument and you're like i agree with this i don't agree with this i like this i don't like this and that's not actually the challenge like there's always going to be stuff you agree with and stuff you don't agree with. But the challenge is to understand it on its own merits. Like, can you understand the argument from that person's point of view? Because that's really what there is to learn from it, is what if this was an internally consistent worldview? What would I learn from seeing the world in this way?

MerlinAnd if it's even the slightest bit, feels the slightest bit alien or foreign to me, how can I be more curious than scared or angry? Can I put curiosity in front? Can I be the doctor for just one minute and put curiosity in front of anger, fear, and hatred. But we have trained ourselves and each other to first figure out our base level emotional response to something because of what we could find problematic about it.

MaxI'll put a big caveat on this, which is I actually don't think this applies to hate speech or saying that people should die. I mean, I get all the time on social media where people are like, all Jews should die or get in the oven or whatever. And I actually don't feel that I have a lot to gain from inhabiting their viewpoint where I should consider the merits of me dying versus me not dying. I actually feel the difference. I don't know. I'm not saying that this applies to everything. I'm just saying it is a useful skill to be able to inhabit an argument

and say what's going on behind the scenes here, what can I learn from this. The other thing as it regards identity that I think you said that is exactly right, Merlin, is the same platform where we go to read the news, Twitter, Tumblr, or wherever you're getting your information from is also the platform where you have a profile where you're kind of building a little page for yourself, right? So what is Twitter? What is Tumblr? It's like a little website, a little website with your name on it. It's like, you know, at Max Temkin. And if someone goes there, there's a list of all the things

that kind of go in my bucket, right? Like, ooh, I like this thing. This thing represents me. I'm going to retweet that. I think that's funny. Here's the thing that I made. So it has the effect to me of a collection that I'm showing to the world to say, here's who I am. And I mean, most people probably do this, right? Sometimes I go to my own profile and I kind of scroll down and I'm like, what do I look like today? Do I look like a lunatic? Or like, what am I kind of putting out there into the world?

MerlinYeah, do I have an old picture of myself with the celebrity who died today that I could put up and show what a great person I am? Oh, thank you for that. Oh, that's amazing. You totally met the person who died. Oh, you're so lucky you met them.

MaxDo I ever tell you the time that Prince DM'd me?

Speaker AWait. anyway

Maxso anyway I'm just saying so I think it's bad that you're that you're on this so so so I just think it's you're necessarily you're kind of asking for that problem don't make don't make me chase you don't make me chase you even doves have pride you're asking for this problem if the same website where you get your information is this this website where you're also building the little profile for yourself because of course you're going to go through it and be like does this go in my bucket or does it not is this me or is this

not me and furthermore if there's something that's not you like you do get cultural capital from being against it from being like fuck this and fuck these people and i hate this like there is you do gain cultural capital from like being against the right things just like i do and everyone else

Alexdoes or you're punished if you don't say something if you're not condemning something or someone Oh, boy.

MerlinYou had all of this to say about the separations at the border, but what do you have to say about trans cats? I'm not a queer advocate.

MaxI got this. This was really upsetting during Gamergate. I was targeted in Gamergate. A lot of friends were targeted in Gamergate, way worse than I was. I'm not holding myself up as a victim here, actually. We all know people that got it way, way worse than us. But I didn't choose to talk about it a lot on social media. And it seemed like for a year, everyone I knew every day, every hour was just posting every latest twist and turn in Gamergate. And can you believe this happened? And this person said this and retweeting this and retweeting that. And I chose not to talk about it that much. And I caught a lot.

They were doing free PR for us. And I chose not to post a lot about it. And I got that a lot. People were like, where's your statement? Why aren't you saying anything about this infraction or this guy or this person? And and I and I would sometimes I would say to people privately, I would say you're that's like asking me what wires my statement about Obama's birth certificate. It's like not a legitimate controversy. You're asking me to dignify with a response. Something that is it is it's a lie and it's it's an it's absurd. Like it doesn't it doesn't have two sides. I'm not on the other side of this issue.

It's not I mean, I mean, it's like I don't think that there's a lot to be gained by having like my my like statements against this or or that. Like it just doesn't that make sense?

AlexNo, it does. It's like, oh, you're going to tell all of your followers who know about Gamergate who are on your side of like all of these people are monsters and saying, yes, yes, they're monsters and asking. And I think we all stepped back because we knew people. We were very close to people that it affected. And us talking about it on the Internet did not help anybody. It wasn't, and I'm not saying that there weren't folks who did, I don't, like our friend Patrick Klepek, who was the big target of it as well, but did like great journalism about it and stuff like that.

But being like, yeah, Alec Baldwin is a, not Alec Baldwin, I've even forgotten his fucking name. Jane from Firefly is a giant fucking turd and a monster. Like we, what's the point? like oh the guy the guy from full metal jacket what am i gonna do post more pictures of kids in uh like with foil blankets like i like i don't i don't know what to do um excuse me alex your

Merlindaily reminder that there are still many children being held in those buildings um excuse me max your occasional reminder that trans cats lives matter your occasion thank you oh my god i

Speaker AYou forgot me. You reminded me.

MaxWhat about all those women who were... Your occasional reminder. What about the Rohingya genocide? Why aren't we talking about that on the podcast?

MerlinNo, who... Why is no one talking about... Why am I the only one talking about this? Did we save Darfur?

MaxWhy is no one talking about the mouthfeel?

Show notes

Transcript

98. Mr. Loaf

Show notes

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