89. Gargac!

MaxI it's on the head on the headphone. It sounds bad. Very bad. Sounds crazy. Yes. Okay. Great. All right. Love to sound nice and clean. Because as stated, I do like these microphones a lot. Are we? Oh, my God. We're so late. Yes, I'm aware, Max. Why are we running so late? Because you changed the microphones. Are you recording this, Garrett? Where's Merlin? Merlin's still on this podcast, right? I can hear you guys fine.

AlexOh, Max, why are we late?

Speaker AWhy are we late?

MaxWe're not late. We're right on time. This is when we normally record.

AlexMerlin, you're not going to be able to notice, but we do have the full Dickerson going on right now.

MaxFull Dickerson.

AlexEven though I noted to Max that we...

MaxI sound very... In my headphone feed, I sound very Alex Jones right now.

AlexI got the budget approved from Max yesterday to get these new microphones, and they are not calibrated yet with the system. Wait a minute.

MaxCan I ask you a question about that, though? Because yesterday you showed me the microphones. So how did you have the microphones and then get the budget approved?

AlexBecause I can return them on Prime.

MaxThe wizard did it. Yeah.

AlexWhat do you mean calibrate?

MaxThat's what I do all the time. I think I've discovered a continuity error.

AlexFor example, you were like, oh, where's your thingy?

MaxWhy don't you have the thing? In episode 109, when Alex gets the budget approval for the microphones, she already had the microphones in her possession. I don't want you to believe this is some kind of canny editing error.

AlexBut you'll notice that you don't have the pop filter because that was not approved yet, and I can't return those instantly.

MaxOf course you're going to buy a $500 microphone without budget approval, but the $10 foam screen.

AlexThat's not from Amazon Prime, so I can't return it.

MerlinThis is not the show.

AlexOh, it's the show. This is Do By Friday, a weekly challenge podcast with Merlin Mann, Alex Cox, and Max Tevkin.

MaxAnd new microphones. We got new mics.

AlexFull Dickerson. Be nice to someone.

MaxWelcome to Do By Friday, everybody. I'm a breakout character, Max. Take a take a follow up. Former Environmental Protection Agency EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt's nearly $10,000 office redecoration included the purchase of a desk. His staffers feared was contaminated by a toxic chemical. Email interactions between EPA staffers first reported by Politico on Friday showed that aides worried about the potential health effects of formaldehyde found in the desk. The fears they raised came just months before the EPA blocked the release of a report highlighting the dangers of formaldehyde exposure in drinking water.

According to the emails released through a Freedom of Information Act, staffers worried about a safety warning placed on the desk from California, which classifies formaldehyde as a carcinogen. Staffers were so concerned about the warning that acting deputy chief of staff Reginald Allen reached out to an EPA career official serving as acting head of EPA's toxic chemicals office for advice. Quote, sorry to bother you with this, but we need some help. the desk the administrator wants for his office from Amazon has a California Proposition 65 warning.

What I am asking is, can someone in your area tell us whether it is okay to get this desk for the administrator related to the warning? Outgassing is a concern.

MerlinYou know what you know formaldehyde from. That's what they put the frogs in in biology class. That's that smell. Oh, that's a good smell. It's such a good smell.

MaxThey should make that into some sort of cologne.

AlexNo, no.

MerlinEau de pepe.

AlexHey, Jordan, can you perhaps get me a flathead screwdriver? Can I get a Coke? Can I get a Coke? The proper... Grace. The proper... Grace, I'm going to need the German Barabons.

MerlinI'm going to need the walnut nunchucks. I'm going to need that in my valise. Can somebody get me a goddamn Coke?

AlexThank you, Jordan. Thank you, Jordan. Oh, I was just gender... I was just gender... Good God.

Speaker AI was just gender normative.

AlexBecause I asked Jordan to do it and not Eliana because he's a cis boy. I guess I've never asked. Ask Kevin. Kevin's at his desk. Wait, there's one.

MaxI just used one to pop off the little adapter on the new microphone. It's in there, Alex. Oh, God.

I was so ready.

MaxI came in earlier to press to make sure the phones would work. Oh, my God.

MerlinWhat's happening? Is she manic? What's happening?

MaxI don't know what's happening. Alex is losing it. Just because I came in here and unscrewed all the microphones and demanded that we use new ones. She sounds like my grandmother at holidays.

AlexJordan, can you ask Kevin for a very thin flat. It's okay. I'll get through it. Stop opening the door. The turkey's never going to cook. It's alright. Oh my god.

Speaker BMy stuffing broke.

AlexIt's too big. It's too big. This is a different adapter because I did not order.

MerlinI very specifically brought the cranberry fork in earlier. Alex, there's a hundred of these

Maxadapters in the closet. I ordered them when we organized

Merlinthe closet. Remove my nice doilies.

MaxIt's not different. There's a hundred

Alexof them. Max, I will, how much you want to

Speaker Ahow much money you want to bet on this? How much money you want to bet?

AlexWho came on the centerpiece? I'm willing. I'm not, you know, I'm no Max Temkin but I'm pretty sure that, I'm pretty sure I'm right on this one. Pretty sure.

MaxWell, what do you guys want Oh, that's interesting. What do you guys want to talk about? Oh my god. We're going to spend a slow week.

AlexYeah, nothing. I wasn't crying in the print studio yesterday for unrelated reasons. Crying in the print studio.

Speaker AUnacceptable. Oh, boy.

AlexIt's been quite a week.

MerlinIt's been a big week. You know what? Can I say one thing? I don't like to exaggerate the importance of guests. I think it's a crutch for a lot of podcasts, but I got great feedback from people that I respect and admire. On last week's episode, they enjoyed having Anita Sarkeesian on our show.

AlexAnd they have new artwork for Feminist Frequency Radio. Hooray!

MaxAre we in it?

AlexNo.

MaxWell, why does it matter to me then? A little bit hurtful.

AlexIt's really cool.

MaxThat stuff doesn't sound like it's about me.

AlexIt doesn't sound intersectional at all. I'm sorry.

MaxIt only counts as a section. I'm sorry.

AlexYeah. Where's your parade? Where's my parade?

MerlinOh, we have fun, don't we? Boy, it's been a pretty big week, let's be honest. Let's take our time. You know what, you guys? Let's take our time. There's no rush here. There's no rush. We can just get into it nice and slow.

MaxBy the time this airs, I will have already done the first Dubai Friday adjacent live stream. So we're recording this on Wednesday. Tomorrow on Thursday, I'm doing a stream slash have already done a stream with Alex and some other friends. And we're going to play some board games. And we're going to raise some money for Sean Kasten, who's running for Congress in the Illinois 6th.

MerlinOh, that's cool. You got some branding on that. You got like a banner and everything.

MaxI do. And then I guess Alex will edit this depending on how it goes, but either Sean Caston senses regrets that he was not able to call into the stream or he joined us and gave a really funny interview and we all loved it. But if you want to find out about these.

MerlinChoose your own podcast adventure.

MaxYeah. If you want to find out about these streams in the future, we're going to be doing, I'm going to be doing them as, I think I'm going to pick this up as like a weekly project. If you want to find out about that. We have a Dubai Friday Discord, which is sort of like, what is a Discord? It's kind of like Slack for gamers.

MerlinIt's a big chat. It's like a big IRC-ish thing. It's a big chat thing.

MaxYeah, it's kind of like a Dubai Friday IRC, and it's got like voice channels and stuff. And you can find a link to that in the show notes, and it's free. You can just come in and hang out with us, and I'll post when I'm doing the streams there. You can follow me or Alex on Twitter, and we'll try and give you some more heads up on the podcast. But it should be pretty fun. We're going to play some board games and hang out and call politicians and raise some money from them.

MerlinDo they click a button or something? I contribute to that. How do you make money on that?

MaxYeah, so we don't make money. None of us are making money on it. You know, it's all the money is going to the campaigns. But I have set up an ActBlue fundraising page. So shout out to the Dubai – we actually have the Dubai Friday network. I have some words about this. But the Dubai Friday network, we're really getting our old tendrils out there. Because we had some Dubai Friday fans at ActBlue, which is the sort of premier fundraising tool for democratic campaigns and causes. and man did they hook us up I mean I got some

they said I got the Pod Save America treatment and they really hooked my they really hooked my shit up so that I could and then also and then friends of the show Matt and Robbie they literally said that they were like well we'll give you the Pod Save America treatment I've never felt so happy in my life you're an honorary John we're friends of the show so anyway shout out to Friends of the show, Matt and Robbie, they sort of helped me do the integration between my streaming software and ActBlue.

So it's all very high tech. And during the stream, you'll be able to give money to Sean Caston's campaign. It will pop up on the stream. And you can put a funny message up there. And Alex and I will thank you. So Alex and I will be doing some financial domination during the stream.

Speaker AOh, boy. Yes.

MaxSlash have already done it. Oh, boy. Not a cam girl. She's a cam person. so i went to i uh once again i judged my the high school startup contest that i do in chicago that

Merlini've talked about previously on the podcast oh right right is that the one like where you got the thing for fixing the string in your hoodie was it that the competition that's actually a

Maxdifferent high school hackathon but it's in the same vein this one is a little more techie so that instead of have in that one it's more like shark tank like you have like a semester to start a business and pitch it in this one in this one it's an overnight the kids come they come for the weekend they like learn they do like crash courses and you know like like um javascript and node and stuff like that and then they like make an app and you pitch it to the judges so um i went with a bunch of friends and judged it the apps were really good like frightening like it's a it's honestly it's it's really fucking cool seeing the stuff that high school kids are building but um probably

the weirdest thing was so they had like so they said like judges please show up at 1 o'clock we're going to do judge training and then the judging starts at 1.30 and of course I was like that just means I need to be there at 1.30 because I don't need to be trained. You judge people

Merlinall the time. You're great at that.

MaxIt's arguably a core competency. I can cast judgment at a moment's notice. You were born in it. I could just consider factors like gender and skin color and just bam judgment. If I was an X-Man that would be my power.

MerlinYou have a big fleshy sorting hat. You can just get right to the heart of it.

MaxPow, opinion formed. Max, you could just show up at 1.30. You don't need judge training. You were born in it. So, okay, so there's more to the story. So I roll in at 1.28. And the judges and this thing, honestly, it's all organized by high school students. So there's only two people with any authority. And they're with the judges sequestered in a little room doing the training. And I roll in at 1.28. And it's just like all the kids are just going insane because they're done with their hackathon. And they're sleep deprived and they're going nuts. And I come in and I checked in at the desk and then they realized that I was, they were

like, cause I was like Max Temkin and they were like, Oh my God, it's Max Temkin. And all these kids came up and they're like, can we take a selfie? And they were like yelling. And then one guy was like, I listened to Dubai Friday and it's, I'm so excited to meet you.

Speaker BThat's so cool.

MaxI don't know. Do you, I feel like he probably Googled it right before I got there so he'd have something to say to me. I don't think he actually listens.

MerlinHe probably, he probably got that in hacker training and hacker training. And they probably tell you, you get what's called OPSEC about the person. And you get oppo or compromise. And then you're able to go in and you're able to say, oh, you're taller than I expected from the podcast I listened to.

MaxWell, that's one of my big, that's Max's big networking hack is that you want to, you Google someone. You get on LinkedIn. Yeah, you Google someone two seconds before you meet them and you go, oh, I'm a big fan of your podcast, Gary's Time Corner. All the great shows. Yeah.

MerlinYou really seem like associate director material. Yeah.

MaxIs this the Gary? Gary the Time Guy? No, wait, it's not Gary.

MerlinIt's Gerald.

Speaker BIt's Gerald. It's Gerald.

MerlinGary's the clown. All the great shows. So did you feel like you missed out on anything once the judging started in earnest? Were you aware what the rules were? Oh, yeah, yeah.

MaxYeah, I just rate the apps from most racist to least racist, and then I put forward the least racist ones. Oh, thank you. So there was a few this year where they do. I mean, this is a common theme I see in these hackathons is kids will. I mean, it's effectively this where they're like, we accessed 10 years of historical crime data. and the city of Chicago, and we put them on a map, and we made a map of where we think crimes will happen in the future. And we want to provide this tool to police so they know where to send the police to stop the crimes.

AlexOh. No.

MaxNo. Exactly. No. No. Yeah, exactly.

AlexHard pass. Hard pass.

MaxYes. You've just drawn a map of the Chicago by socioeconomic and racial boundaries.

AlexBy my neighborhood, and are you still living? Yep.

MaxThere's this cluster of neighborhoods on the south and west side. What's going on right now? Yeah, it's like my... Bring out the five bald women. They're predicting that some crime will happen here.

AlexOh, boy.

MaxLet me read the wooden balls.

AlexWait, wait. I laughed. Why is that funny? What? I don't... Oh, the... Don't you got balls in Minority Report?

MerlinMinority Report, yeah. It's wooden. Cosmic Jazz Hands. Yes. And then the lady from Synecdoche, New York, she's in Minority Report.

AlexYes, yes, yes. I'm sorry. I'm still on, you know...

MerlinThen you go arrest the guy by the playground, but there's a turns out.

AlexOh, I'm sorry, Merlin.

MerlinFolk Dick.

AlexThe mics aren't calibrated.

Merlinthe mic's turn count you sound good you sound a little flustered alex

Alexyou know someone was just telling me how good i am under pressure um i'm like well that's because i'm always prepared uh is that someone who knows you well um excuse me excuse my pressure it's 11 30 everything's fine my voice is a little creepy by some boys you sound you sound way less sick uh i do oh my goodness but um by the end of the day yesterday i was like hi everybody

Speaker ANope, not going to do that as a bit anymore. Oh, I have exciting news.

AlexGood news, or bad news is, I don't have any chapstick. Good news is, I used up a full capsule, what would these call? A full stick of Burt's Bees lip balm. And I always feel very accomplished. Yeah, because I didn't put it through the washing machine. Oh, good for you.

MerlinAnd then it would melt and get all over your clothing, right?

AlexYeah, yeah, that's always a fun thing.

MerlinI heard that happens a lot with lipsticks. Do you ever get that, Alex, where you put a lipstick in with your skirts and it gets all melty all over your skirts?

AlexYes, yes. And then all of my white blouses are red.

Speaker BAck.

MerlinWell, can I start with a question?

Speaker BAll right, if you must.

MerlinPlease. Okay, my problem is, how do I put this? Ever since I was little, I have wanted to be an entrepreneur. Hang on, please. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. No, this is hard for me because I have a lot of fear. I have fear. It might be fear of success. It might be fear of failure. My problem is I would love to become an entrepreneur, and my hang up is I have a lot of fear. Do you guys have any suggestions for something I could do to become more fearless and finally start a business?

MaxWell, how willing are you? It all depends on the answer to this question, Merlin. Yeah? How willing are you to eat some cat shit? Oh, I'm so fucking down to clown, man.

MerlinPut it in my veins. You're going to have to start sucking up those cat turds. Here's the thing. To get to have no fear, first, it's going to be like a Khoai Chan-Cain type situation. You're going to have to face your fear of eating cat shit if you want to succeed as an entrepreneur.

MaxWell, that's called immersion therapy. therapy. Take a mouse.

MerlinIs it Alex?

AlexAlex, are you going to read it or shall I? No, no, no, no. You, you, you.

MerlinShould I do the headline first? Please. This is for NBC News. Parasite in cat poop could be reducing our fear of failure, study finds. A mind-controlling parasite found in cat feces may give people the courage they need to become entrepreneurs. Researchers reported Tuesday. They found that people who have been infected with the Toxoplasma gondii parasite are more likely to major in business and they have started their own business than non-infected people the parasite which makes rodents unafraid of cats may be reducing the fear of failure in people stephanie johnson of the university of colorado and colleagues said

new paragraph they haven't actually shown that but toxoplasma does get into the brain and it's been linked to a variety of mental effects in mice and people alike and fear of failure could be a good thing johnson said yeah that's good high risk car accidents mental illness neuroticism which sounds hot drug abuse and and uh and suicide trigger warning for poop

Alexthis is a very strange article uh i i think it could be more that people who are lonely and sad have cats and then they have nothing to do and nothing to lose and then they start a business you think it's a double reverse turns out a correlation not causation or something how long

Merlinif you had a cat, Max, you're a successful entrepreneur. You've had a cat for a pretty

Maxlong while, right? Yeah, but I, but it was, but I, well, I have found myself growing less afraid. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, um, normally I'm, um, uh, no, that's not true. Now I'm scared of everything. I talked to Dr. Don one time and now I like, I won't eat old, old pasta sauce.

MerlinLike I won't eat old food. Yeah. I, I, I am so confused because I thought this was already a double turns out. I thought this turns out that this is some kind of corner case thing that they discovered. And I thought the double turns out was that it's actually not true about affecting humans. And I heard the triple double semi hemi turns out is that it doesn't actually explain cat persons. Do we have any recent scholarship on this? Because the story went. So even at the time that we were going to bring some progeny into the world, we were super careful about avoiding like

the garage because there might be mice poop. They say pregnant ladies avoid poop. Even if you love poop, avoid it a lot when you're pregnant because you could have all kinds of problems. But now, did you know what the latest, I mean, I guess this is it. I guess Stephanie is bringing us the latest scholarship on this. I thought we heard that this wasn't really true.

MaxWhat publication was this in? Oh, NBC News. Yep. I don't know about that. University of Colorado. I got to say, I think that there's probably, this sounds like the kind of thing where there's someone in the Dubai Friday Powder Nation who's got some information about toxoplasmosis and they should send us a message and let us know what the latest findings are.

MerlinAre you aware of the thing where if you got, I don't want to say tummy problems, if you've got bowel problems, you can, you know, have we talked about this, how you can get other people's poop implanted in your butt and then it sends good poop in and improves your, what is it, the fauna? You get better fauna in your tract?

MaxThe fecal transplant.

MerlinYeah, and so they mentioned on, actually, no such thing as a fish, that basically people, where was it? Somewhere in the Middle East would eat camel poop because it would do something similar and the Germans started doing it. And then it's really quite an interesting story. I'm just wondering if there's any opportunity for a powder here. Maybe this is the toxoplasma talking. Maybe I have no right to become a powder entrepreneur. But it seems to me that if we could take the poop.

MaxOh, well, you're saying, okay, so you're saying. If you want a guerrilla mindset, you might need to eat some poop powder. I think I see where you're going here, which is that maybe what you're saying here, if I don't want to put words in your mouth wrong, but you could be saying that the Alex Jones. There's no bad ideas when we're in this mind space. Just explore the space with me. Okay. So maybe what I'm hearing is that the sort of Alex Jones, you know, elite operator, you know, special forces operator survival powder market is a little bit saturated, right? That you're sort of dehydrated water powders and your bone powders, that that's a hard market to

boss into but you know what's available to us is the sort of Tim Ferriss success

Merlinwind powder market mm-hmm you know I'm saying absolutely we call it no no no no no no no no a tropic or nutraceutical right and what we what we would do is I mean what do we have more of doing a cap it's a class literally my cat pooped my cat literally I could hear her make four very hard drops in the hallway this

Speaker Bmorning it starts with oh no she's scratching in the hallway

Merlinand four little hard turds out there now you know what i did i picked that up with a paper towel like a gentleman who knows what kind of resources i'm throwing away when i go in and put that in the plastic that could be something you turn into a powder and you make an epic troop now what if we

Maxum i don't want to jump too far ahead but what if a packaging idea what if it comes in a little

Alexbriefcase business powder oh i see i like this you see what i'm saying they do your business

Speaker Aand it helps you with your business now do you think that it's possible that it could be more

Maxeffective if you do you know if you sort of take it nasally let's say you like do a line of it snort the shit yeah you're saying there would be like a cat bump you do a bump of cat yeah you're

Speaker Blike i'm waking up i feel fearful today just gonna do a huge line of cat shit

Merlini don't know man but i think the thing is i think we're gonna have a tough adoption curve when it comes to literally eating poop but if we were to do something to scientize it a little bit

Speaker AMm-hmm.

MerlinRight? And show people no fear. No labels, no fear. Right. No rules, just right. You're going to get this and you're going to get the girl of mine. It's going to have to come with a book, I think. A booklet? Maybe the Constitution? Well, no, it's some sort of book about the philosophy behind the business powder. Let me explain about paleo times to you. We were never designed to live in communities of more than 50 people. We were meant to be around a campfire at night to talk about our feelings.

MaxWe're meant to die at the age of 30. Let me ask you this question. How did people evolve? They evolved running from predators. You had to escape from cheetahs and raptors. But are there any predators today? No. So where does your fear turn? It turns towards a fear of failure, of starting that business, of starting that Instagram celebrity personality.

MerlinBusiness is a raptor. Yes. Business is a raptor. Let me ask you this. Who ate the first oyster? We don't know. He probably fucking died because it wasn't a month with an R in it. I'll tell you who didn't eat the first oyster was Dr. Don. Dr. Don, the first oyster. When you saw two sets of footprints, the oyster was carrying you.

MaxYou know what's amazing to me? The most amazing one of those to me is that people figured out that you could eat uni. Have you ever seen one of those things? Watching somebody prepare an uni is really fucked up.

MerlinGoogle uni, Alex.

MaxIt's not a sea anemone? It's a sea urchin. Sea urchin. Urchin, that's it. It's a spiny boy. Who looked at that thing and was like, if I crack that sucker open, there's probably something delicious in there. That thing is screaming to me, eat me.

MerlinMmm. Even when it's cut out and you put it on with some seaweed, it's not very pleasant looking. It looks a little bit like a tongue.

MaxMmm.

MerlinI think I consider that amongst the dare sushis.

MaxOh, no. Do you like uni? I fucking love uni.

MerlinReally?

MaxDo you like uni, Alex? That was, in fact, one of the times on my list of times that I cried was when I... You cried in Japan from sushi? No, specifically it was in uni. When we went to Japan, that was like my first, the first good uni that I had ever had. And it was one of the best bites of food I've ever had in my life.

AlexYou literally cried after eating the inside of a porcupine fish?

MaxYeah, I got teared up. It was a great moment.

AlexI don't know if I'm on the level of a friendship with Josh and Ben that I can be like,

MerlinThe heart wants what it wants. I used to have a friend of a friend. I did not like him. I'm going to call him, I'm going to call him, you can't make it hot enough for me guy. Have you ever gone out to dinner with you can't make it hot enough for me?

MaxOh, I've gone out to dinner with brought my own hot sauce guy.

MerlinBut it's the guy who really wants to interrogate the staff about like how wild the food can get. And he would always order a order dare food sushi before the table. And so you get stuff. You know, I mean, sometimes I want a California roll. I'm sorry. I'm basic. Like, I don't necessarily want to have, you know, something that looks like I don't know, like something you'd scrape off a rib. Like, I don't prefer it.

MaxWhen I went to Japan on that same trip, I asked a couple chef friends of mine, you know, for their tips because I figured they would know all the great sort of food spots. And I got this amazing list from Chef Grant Ackett's from Alinea and some other great restaurants here in Chicago. And we went to a lot of those places, and they were legitimately incredible. It was a great list, and I've put some of it on my Japan blog post. but one of the places on that list I'll never forget was Chef Ackett's was like if you go up in this building to the fourth

floor and mention my name there's a bar where they serve raw pig sushi and you can get raw pig vagina and he's like yes and he's like if you've ever wanted to try that

Speaker Araw pig pork sashimi

MerlinI don't want to get all Alex Cox on this are you talking about the lobby of the vulva or the actual tube?

AlexYeah. Oh, see, I assumed it was vagina. Or is this like a vulva?

MerlinIt's sort of like the way you think you're getting, you think you're getting, like what's the squid that they make out of pig's anus now? What's it called?

AlexThat fried... Majora Labia Minora. What was it, Max?

MaxOkay. Yeah, it's called Tore Shige in Shinjuku and they serve pork sashimi. Pretty strange. I can't say everything was good. Some parts of the pig, maybe you shouldn't eat raw like the vagina, but it is certainly a rare dining experience.

MerlinI mean, how you actually serve the vagina.

AlexI think they're kind of, are these guys pig turfs? What's happening? Pig moth raff.

MerlinOh, you're saying that's a phenomenon that goes overseas, too.

AlexYeah.

MerlinPig turfs.

AlexHi. I realized a lot of things about myself this week, but one of them, I'm not a make it, I can handle it as hot as possible guy, but I am, you can't make it too plain, girl. if you go to if you go to olive garden and they're like wait you just want olive oil on that pasta yes i just want olive olive oil on that pasta and not too much not too much no no no no no why add

Merlinmore cholesterol how much of this red bull have you had all those empty calories from pepper uh

Alexwell i i only about this because because the mics aren't calibrated so really cut into your red

Merlinbill guzzling time yes i always tell the people i i so like when we do like a like a delivery thing and it's a burger, I always, there's two things that I always say for my daughters. I say, could we please just, and I try to be very specific about this. I think this helps. I'll say, we just want the burger and cheese on a bun. It's for a kid.

AlexOh, I do that too. And I thought that I was lying for a while and I'm like, no, I'm a food child.

MerlinFood baby.

AlexThere is one thing I will lie about. I lie and say I'm allergic to pickles. That is actually one thing that won't kill me. I just hate them that much.

MerlinOh, you ever tried bread and butter pickles

Alexas little boys? They're real sweet. They're horrible. I've tried every pickle I've tried everything I like a spicy Jewish pickle with the whole mustard seed in there I've tried it all I've tried the fried pickles

Maxthey should get real small and hard like a wizard's finger

Speaker Byou must solve my pickle video Take a, take a

MaxSt. Louis dispatch On a recent Saturday night Two women in their early 20s called an Uber From Ballpark Village in downtown St. Louis Within minutes Jason arrived Driving a black Chevrolet Silverado They climbed into the pickup's back seat Illuminated by purple lights The driver, a bearded man in his 30s, was friendly. The women asked where he went to high school. They joked about friends they were going to meet at a bar across town. But there was something the women didn't know. The driver was streaming a live video of them to the internet, and comments from viewers were pouring in.

The blonde is a 7, the brunette is a 5, someone with the username Drunken Eric commented. She doesn't shit like a lady, though, another viewer added. That's creepy, said another. the women are among hundreds of st louis area uber passengers who have been streamed online without their knowledge by their driver jason gargak 32 of fluorescent is the guy's name jason gargak he sounds like doesn't it sound like what you would name it sounds like he would invent a fantasy role playing game it sounds like you what you would name your like you're like

barbarian troll character in dnd right right right yeah i'm jason gargak what what why did he was it Is it just a sexy thing? Why was he doing it? Well, content. I think it's content.

AlexFor the bits. That's what they're called now on Twitch.

MaxGargak has given about 700 rides in the area since March through Uber, plus more with Lyft. Nearly all have been streamed on his channel on Twitch, a live video website popular with video gamers where Gargak goes by the name Just Smurf. Passengers have included children Drunk college students and unwitting public figures Such as local TV news reporters And Jerry Cantrell Lead guitarist with the band Alice in Chains

Speaker AOh

Speaker BOkay

MaxYou got Gargak'd, bitch First names and occasionally full names are revealed Homes are shown Passengers have thrown up, kissed, talked trash About relatives and friends And complained about their bosses in Gargak's truck all the while an unseen audience watches evaluating women's bodies judging parents and mocking

Alexconversations would you like to read the uh final tweet he sent out oh i didn't get that little bit

Merlinoh all right that little nugget this is from this is from the from the desk of gargak it is it is

Alexgargak tweet gargak gargak tweet uh it's in the super secret channel oh am i reading it i think

Maxyou could do it justice. All right, I'm opening, I'm clicking, I'm dragging.

Speaker BJust a heads up for everyone,

Maxas you all know. For me,

Speaker Btransparency is always key.

MaxI've had a few offline conversations with some folks, and they suggested getting rid of the stored VODs as step number one of trying to calm everyone down. I've done that. Dot, dot,

Speaker Bdot, dot, dot, dot. For now. Gargak has spoken. Gargak stops stream for now. Gargak transparent. You give Gargak bits. Give Gargak five stars.

Please rate and review. Gargak get bits or club you. Gargak request you hit that bell, fam. Hey, Gargak. Stored VODs.

AlexOh, boy. Stored VODs. Video on demand. Stored VODs. Videos, yeah. Gargak store VODs.

Speaker BYou take Gargak's VODs? Those Gargak's VODs That why they're in Gargak's cave You come in Gargak's cave

MaxAnd take Gargak's VODs And don't give Gargak bits

Speaker AGargak click that

Speaker BGargak wonder why bitch is so mean

MaxGargak just want good bits What do you guys think of that? What do you guys think of that? Do you think that you've ever been in an Uber that's been live streamed?

AlexI assume that all the time. Every time I get into a Lyft or Uber.

MaxI somewhat feel that in this world, you know, post sort of, I mean, I've felt this for years, but certainly looking at that airplane tweet to romance story kind of nonsense and this thing, I kind of now have the feeling that anytime there's people around, you're in public and you're a public figure. Do you guys feel like that?

Speaker BYeah.

Maxit's not I'll say it's not that alien to me like it just it doesn't feel that weird but I can imagine if I was like oh I'm not saying it's normal it honestly it doesn't feel that weird to me but if I can imagine that if I was like 10 or 15 years older it would be it would totally

Alexfreak me out I mean it does totally freak me out I'm not saying it feels normal or okay but sometimes you just get a vibe like that there's I don't know I remember there was a time when I

MerlinI was doing things with a popular podcast network and I became acquainted with a young woman who you know of, who became part of that network of people who walk around with a camera in their hat. This was I, Justine.

The I is for information.

AlexContinue.

MerlinI became acquainted with information, Justine, and she was part of some kind of network. There was that one guy. Remember that one guy? who streamed everything. And then he got a whole website where he streamed everything.

AlexDan 3.0. Oh, I do. Revision 3. He joined Revision 3. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

MerlinBut I just, I remember when Information Justine would be walking around the show floor at Macworld and I would, and we were acquainted and we, you know, we've done bits together for that podcast network and, you know, we're friendly. And I just remember like literally sprinting the other way as soon as I saw the hat. Because just the whole idea of somebody with a camera in their hat was so upsetting to me. And the idea that they're just live streaming that and then the idea that there is enough of demand to watch hat cams that like who who has moved things around on their schedule to watch a hat cam.

It was very upsetting to me because I just couldn't stop thinking about it in the bathroom when they're watching it. Like, you know, can can you just have a camera and we could talk and there's the end of the bit. But you got to got a hat cam.

MaxI've occasionally done streams on my phone where I'll where I take my skateboard to work. and I'm like, just ask me any questions. Well, it's like I have a 10-minute ride, and I'll just go on Twitch or on Periscope and be like, ask me anything, basically. And in those times, there's been one or two times where in the middle of the stream I've gone to a coffee shop because sometimes I stop and get coffee on the way. And I felt so, I thought, you know what? I'll play it cool. I'll take the phone. I'll hold it kind of low.

I'll kind of shoot from the hip. And like Vivian Meyer, I'll come in all smooth. I'll get my coffee. I'll get out. And I take one step in that coffee shop and I just start sweating and I feel hot and I'm humiliated. No one knows what's going on except that I'm like a stammering idiot. But like it just feels so wrong. Like I'm just not constitutionally like built for putting – I don't know. It's weird, right? The barista doesn't know that they're on a live stream that people are watching. It's weird. It's definitely weird. It's so weird.

MerlinIt's very weird. I mean I think to concatenate or conjoin all the different surveillance bullshit into one thing and say, well, that's just how we live. I'm not ready to quite go there yet. I mean, the people who are in there, they didn't ask to be on there. And like at the point where you're like, well, it's happening all the time. You might as well get used to it. Like, you know, somebody in there is having a bad day. Somebody, I mean, even before we get to the whole like, are they cheating on their spouse kind of thing. It's just they didn't sign up for that. And now there's going to be some fucking onanist in Oklahoma like making fun of them on TV.

It's like they didn't ask for that. It's really gross.

AlexI have, in defense of information, Justine, I remember that.

MerlinI don't dislike information, Justine.

AlexI don't like her hat. I'm sorry. In defense of information, Justine's hat. I remember that year. Listen to the mouth words. She's about information. I know that you are not. Information, Justine. I know. Fake news. I know that. Wow.

MaxIt might have been pink. Clip this, fam. We've got Merlin's feud with information, Justine. Coming in hot on Dubai Friday. She's great. Make sure you clip this.

Speaker AShe's really great. Save this as a VOD.

MerlinBut I remember it was not a good look. The way that Malin was dragging information just in was lit.

AlexI remember the same thing of being like, oh, that's oh, wait, that's cool. Because when you're at a trade show like for oh, man, I can't believe I never went to Macworld. It was too too wee. But like when you go to PAX or something, you sign all sign away all rights to privacy as soon as you get a ticket. And I'm not saying that's OK or cool. but she did that essentially because she was the one of the few ladies on the floor who was not like a booth babe and it's like yeah this is the only way i i don't know i i remember seeing like this

is the only way i can really intrigued with how you land this one i know like this was the only way to get people to talk to her she had a trucker she had a trucker cap before she was on that that

Maxnetwork that you talk about there's a difference between being on the show floor of a convention with 70,000 other people. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And being in an Uber. No, I'm agree. I'm summarizing what you're saying. And the legal standard for that is, don't email me, the legal standard for that is that do you have a reasonable expectation of privacy in this space or not? And if you're in a building with 60,000 other people in an open show floor with everyone has their cell phones and their cameras and the whole intended purpose of it is to take Instagram pictures, then you do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy on that show floor.

But if you get into an Uber, you know, a one-on-one relationship, The doors close. You're in a car. I think you have you clearly have a reasonable expectation of privacy when you're in that vehicle because nobody expects that they're being recorded in the inside of a car.

MerlinAnd what if what if you're being taught self-defense against ISIS? Oh, my God.

MaxThat show is fucking blowing my mind.

MerlinI don't know. It's we just we I my wife literally can't watch it. she'll be sitting there, but she has her hand over her eyes the whole time. I'm like, no, no, wait, wait. To really appreciate the layers of what's happening here, you have to watch the man who dropped his pants and his red underpants, and now he is running backwards into a man and saying he's going to make him a homosexual. Yes. It's like, you really got to sit with that, because it's funny. It's funny because you see the guy's butt, but the levels and levels of the I will make you a homosexual USA, it's unbelievable.

You ever wonder how many of those he shoots to fall apart or how many those he shoots that end up being not what he wanted When he gets to somebody who actually will say all the dumb shit he tells them to say I that's the part where I'm like, I don't know how he holds it together

MaxHe doesn't you know so much we never see I know he doesn't break. Oh my god when they had the bachelorette contested not that n-word That's terrible When they had the one where they had the bachelorette woman on that is one of the wildest things I've ever seen on television television and i can't believe he didn't burst out laughing during that i mean that man is a fucking he's a fucking stone golem for sitting through that without cracking a grin i have not

Alexyet laughed it well i've only seen a few bits on the show but with with um with gay butt i didn't i didn't laugh a bit i was just horrified i can't say that i was laughing out loud but it was

Merlinextremely funny i but it was i but it's also it was funny how he was racist wrong which i guess makes it double secret racist but like the way that he thought his ching chong was his bing bong and he was doing all like what he thought was Japanese stuff but it was all like Japanese

Maxstuff red dragon red dragon you know what a really underrated joke in that whole bit the one that really actually did make me laugh is they go through that whole thing where he pretends to be the Chinese tourist and he gets the cell phone upskirt cam into the into the the thing and then he like he says okay let's review and he looks at the phone and like swipes the picture he goes Not the terrorist that was so fucking funny like it was all for nothing

MerlinBut whereas showing the actual showing the dick next to the Glock was one of the most Sasha Baron Cohen moments of all time

MaxThat's it looks like a Glock 9 the fact that all he has to do is pretend to be this This macho Israeli IDF guy and that he can sort of out He can sort of go to these conservative men and just do it saying and doing these outrageous things Yeah, it's unbelievable It's all it takes is someone 1% more macho than they are for them to be like, no, I'm egged on. Yeah.

AlexNo matter how out of content, no matter what they cut, no matter what they said to get him to do this, it does not matter. He still did.

MaxHe signed a release saying this is going to be broadcast on national television. How do you fucking sign a release and do that? And there's a three camera. Oh, my God. Three movie cameras and a full film crew all stay. You know, Sacha Baron Cohen's not alone in the room with these people. There's a film crew. There's a sound guy holding a microphone over their head. Like, they know that they're being filmed. They're not being tricked.

Speaker AIt's, yeah, it's.

MaxI'm going to go ahead and say that I think this is like the, it's like the only good political comedy now. I can't really think of anything else that I think is, maybe Veep.

Alexhonestly it's like

Maxthis it's like who is America and like anything like Iannucci makes is like pretty much the only political comedy good political comedy everything else is like 10 years behind death of Stalin was very good oh

Alexvery very good I am a fan of as well of this little show called scandal on ABC it has since

Maxis that the one about Max's life comedy that's more of a drama it's a dramedy I would say All right. I have one more Uber story, and then I know we're all very excited to get to this big news that we have from Forbes this week, kind of our headline, our centerpiece thing. But I want to get through one more Uber story. So this is from the Miami Herald. The next time you use Uber, check your bill. The trip could turn out to be expensive, and not just for the distance, but for a new type of fraud that is on the rise.

It's called vomit fraud. Vomit fraud. Vomit fraud. Vomit fraud Don't do vomit fraud, boy

Speaker BIt's called

MaxVomit fraud, a scam repeatedly denounced In social networks, yet still taking place Around the world. Oh, you don't say people complaining About it on Twitter doesn't stop anything in the Real world? That's, uh, what a weird Apparition for this type of scam

MerlinNot so sure much police work

MaxThey need What is it? Passengers request Uber cars, which deliver Them to their destination. So far, so good But boy, the writing of this is really something.

MerlinI'm trying not to jump in. Who the fuck is teaching writing nowadays? It all sounds like a high school newspaper. All this writing sounds like high school.

MaxBut soon the passenger receives a note from Uber. Webster's defines vomit ass. But soon the passenger receives a note from Uber reporting a quote unquote adjustment in the bill and an extra charge that can range from $80 to $150 depending on the driver's degree of crookedness. If you think that's frustrating, you're right. But the worst is still to come. The passenger, you could honestly edit this down to like three sentences of content. The passenger, unaware of what's happening, tries to contact Uber. The only way to do that is through the help button on the company's app or internet page.

Internet page. Internet page. The first reply usually goes something like this. Quote, I understand that it can be disconcerting to receive adjustments to the tariff after your trip ended. In this case, your driver notified us that during your trip there was an incident in the vehicle, and therefore a cleanup fee of $150 was added. The message is accompanied by photos of the alleged incident vomit in the vehicle. The Uber driver had sent the images to the company, which considered them sufficient evidence to add the cleanup charge to the bill. Uber policy is to charge $80 if a passenger vomits or spills a drink on the seats

or any surface difficult to clean, but the charge can increase to $150 in cases of, quote, significant quantities of bodily fluids such as urine, blood, or vomit in the interior of the vehicle. Uber says the extra fees compensate the drivers for the time and money they spend cleaning their vehicles. Sorry, bro.

AlexI am shocked that this hasn't happened more before. Like, this is such an easy thing to fake. I can't believe it.

MerlinHave you ever tried to fix any problem you've had with the Uber service? Have you ever had the fun of trying to deal with fixing an Uber problem?

AlexNo, because the only time I use Uber is like for...

MaxIt's the same deal with Lyft and Uber are exactly the same.

AlexWell, no, I disagree. I disagree. Lyft, I have had problems with like safety and slurp stuff and also getting in an actual accident.

MaxI don't know. Maybe I'm saying... It went very well. I used to use Uber all the time and now I'm exclusively on Lyft. And part of my frustration was I had a string of bad rides. So I had one guy who just like wouldn't drop me off where I wanted. He dropped me. And like it was it wasn't like a pool or one of those like weird ones. It was like I just paid for a guy to drive me somewhere. And he's like, no, that's I don't want to go down. It was like in one of those little residential places. And he was like, I don't want to go down all those streets. So I'm just going to drop you off on like, you know, diversity or whatever.

MerlinWow, that's bad.

MaxYeah. And I was like, wait a minute. I was like, aren't I paying you to take me to the thing? He's like, yeah, but it's all one way. And I was like, but that's what I'm paying for. So I had that and I complained. And then I had another. And then I had a series of ones where, do you know about like pickup fraud? Where they take the ride and then they just don't come. And then they wait for you. They make you cancel. They'll call you and they'll be like, you have to cancel. But then you get assessed like a $15 charge.

AlexYeah.

MaxOh, God. So I got like three pickup frauds. And I was like, fuck this. I'm done. And I switched to Lyft. But in each of those cases, I tried to reverse the charge. And I complained to Uber and they didn't do shit about it.

MerlinYep. Same. Well, there's a lot of levels to this. One anecdote, we usually have pretty good luck with Lyft. I stopped using Uber a while back for lots of reasons. But honestly, you see the Lyft logo and the Uber logo on many, many, many cars here. But yeah, that's how I pick my kid up from camp these days. And we're ready to slide into the car from the curbside. And usually I do the slide. And then she gets in at the door. We put our seatbelts on. There was what appeared to be, so you know like a small bottle of Purell, like you keep in a purse or a backpack?

There appeared to be the contents of an entire bottle of Purell in a pool in a corner of the backseat. Oh no. Where my daughter's little brother would have to go. Now how did you know that it was Purell? You could smell it. But it had that same consistency. And, you know, she was like, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine, because she hates confrontation. I was like, ah, my dude, there's a lot of Purell in a little pool back here. And he's like, meh. And then we got to he got to the drop off and I'd said it a couple times and I was like, you okay? You know, you're not bothering you. No, it's fine. It's fine. It's fine. And we got home. I was like, yeah

Yeah, just so you know, you probably want to clean that up for the next passengers And he gave me this thing with the eyes So I gave I gave him three stars Yeah, because I don't want to get fired. I don't get fired

Speaker AExactly. It's okay. So here's what happened. I'm fucking merciless with my stars

MaxWhat? If the Purell was in the car, I would use zero stars. If they drop under 4.7, they get fired.

AlexThey're going to... You fired so many people.

MaxNo. They are not fired because they're not employees. Do better.

AlexFair.

MaxThat's not... I refuse to be conscripted into... The fact that Uber and Lyft have these people working as weird conscripts, like mercenary conscripts, but not employees, and they have this whole system, that's not my problem. That's that they've created an unfair employment situation and I'm not going to be party to like, oh, I have to play along with this.

MerlinYou should recommend a philosophy book. My my wife had her password compromised on Uber and she suddenly started getting things pop up on her phone in Russian. Oh, I think this I think this has happened to a fair number of people where something gets compromised.

MaxShe got the Alex or the guy startup. She got Bloomberg. She got Bloomberg. Full Bloomberg.

MerlinShe and so the funny part was that she in a fit of peak months before I did had deleted the app, but her account still existed.

AlexOh, no.

MerlinAnd that happened and it kept happening. And you would not believe the hoops that she had to jump through to I'm trying to remember everything. But long story short, it was incredibly difficult to get any human being to intervene in any way. And even when they did, you get that continuity of care problem where there's a thing we'll try to fix it. and then you have to start over with another person the next time. If you can get that person, you know how this works, like in bad customer service. Yeah, and so, and basically, there's like, you can't delete your account because the password has been changed and we can't really help you with that.

And it just kept happening and happening and happening. I forget what the final result was, but it took several incidents over weeks of that happening, her subsequently trying to contact someone to help her with it. I mean, you have any problem, you have any problem. I think I said this before. The problem with a lot of, well, one of the problems from a consumer standpoint, a user standpoint with these services, they are all designed to be fine as long as everything works almost flawlessly. If anything doesn't work almost flawlessly, you are out of luck, right?

I mean, from the small things like your Instacart person says they're out of number four size coffee filters, so I got you number two size coffee filters. You're like, well, that's not really a replacement for me because that won't work on my thing, you know? all the way up to like Russians are using your account and they have no ability or interest to address that. And there's this is this like a new fucking problem. You've never had a problem with fraud on your service before and you don't have a way to deal with that. Like today, it's really upsetting.

AlexYeah, I think all like ethics aside, just from a customer service standpoint, Lyft has been so much better. And I don't know. It feels like they care about their customer safety more. and

Merlinwell they definitely suck less I've had much fewer bad experiences with Lyft than Uber by a long shot

Alexyeah

Merlindid I ever tell you my Asian girlfriend's story alright go on please proceed Governor one time I don't know how many years ago Jesse Char and I shared a ride home from an event where we dropped her off and then we dropped me off and this was back when it was just a black car service African American car service and and one time then there was a fewer pool of these folks I got picked up again another time he said oh you know I've had you before I was like excuse me He's like, oh, yeah, I give you a ride. You and your Asian girlfriend.

And I was like, there's so many levels. I didn't even know which particular handle on that suitcase to grab. It was, first of all, creepy. Like, what? It's like, that's not. And I wrote a letter. I wrote a letter to Uber. And I said, that's not okay. She's not my Asian girlfriend.

Speaker AOh, it's so. Okay.

MaxCut all that out. Well, speaking of all of these sort of Silicon Valley startup services replacing infrastructure in our society and everyone finally with it and being good We wanted to you know normally we come up with we find these articles I find these articles usually and they're these really infuriating like op-eds or takes or pieces And I'm like, oh this I'm rubbing my hands together like a little gremlin and I'm like this is gonna be so good on Dubai Friday And then wouldn't you know it the goddamn fucking chopo trap house records on Monday or over the weekend

And their episode comes out and they read all our funny shit. Well, they were too busy dropping acid and going to Ozzy Fest. And we got one before them. So Chapo can suck my balls on this one because we're going to read the Forbes op-ed about how Amazon should replace public libraries.

AlexYay!

MaxSo this is from Forbes. I think all three of us tweeted about this independently, just absolutely like our brains exploding. To use a phrase in the programming world,

Merlinit's so wrong it's not even right. Yeah. There's there's so many levels of what the fuck are you talking about to this article and to put to present it as this way to like we're gonna save government dollars and coffers from doing this was just like so fucking frustrating.

MaxI tweeted it with the head with the comment up Siri show me an article that will give me an aneurysm. It's like it's like a calculated it's like a targeted missile strike into my into my like the stress part of my brain.

Speaker BOh my god.

MaxWell, anyway, buckle up. This one's going to be a hell of a ride. So this ran in Forbes, and there's some turns out and some double, triple turns out about that. There's some double, triple turns out levels of this shit. So many.

MerlinYeah. This went out, what, early this week? I'm looking at it in Instapaper for reasons. Yep. When did it actually go up? Was it early in the week, like maybe Monday or Tuesday? No, it was last week.

MaxYeah, it was late last week, I think. So this ran in Forbes. Does anyone have the author's name? I didn't get that. We should say it right up top. Just so he gets the credit for this piece. I wouldn't want anyone to be curious about who wrote this. His last name is, I think, Supio.

MerlinS-O-U-P-I-O. Michael Supio?

AlexMichael Supios. Supio? Supio. Michael Supio.

MaxIt's in Forbes by Michael Supios. Amazon should open their own bookstores in all local communities. They can replace local libraries and save taxpayers lots of money while enhancing the value of their stock. There was a...

AlexWe got to get through it.

MaxWe got to get through it. Just sort of a wave of nausea hits me after that first paragraph. It's called the topic sentence. You know, good topic sentence. How do you know if you've written a good topic sentence? Webster defines libertarianism as... Oh, my God. How do you know if you've written a good topic sentence? Well, have you ever seen the movie Pie? Oh, my God. It should feel like a drill just going straight into your cranium. Oh, my God.

Speaker BYeah.

MaxThere was a time local libraries offered the local community lots of services in exchange for their tax money. Ah, my good sir, just a normal transaction. I'll just give you my tax money and you'll give me lots of good services. Could I please have a highlights magazine for my tax money? They would bring books, magazines, and journals to the masses through a borrowing system. Residents could borrow any book they wanted, read it, and return it for someone else to read. You guys remember that when that happened? He's describing here?

MerlinThis is a library he's describing.

MaxIs that how it works? You borrow books and then you read it and you bring it back for someone else to read. Is that how it works? Okay. Well, these libraries, they also provided residents with a comfortable place they could enjoy their books. They provided people with a place they could do their research in peace with the help of friendly librarians. Libraries served as a place where residents could hold their community events. But this was a function that they shared with school auditoriums. There's no shortage of places to hold community events. He's just asking the question.

AlexNo shortage.

MerlinJesus. Okay, this is where I'm sort of thinking I wanted to show his work a little bit more.

MaxLibraries slowly began to service the local community more. Libraries introduced video rentals and free internet access. Sounds pretty good to me, honestly. The modern local library still provides these services, but they aren't for free. homeowners have to be financed by taxpayers in a form of a quote library tax it is usually added to school taxes which in some communities are already high meanwhile they don't have the same value they used to the reasons why are obvious i just want to pause on that for one second because

the reason that school taxes i just want to get into this because in states like illinois has this i mean it's really one of the most fucked up things about our society i don't even know if lot of our listeners know this, but the reason why these quote unquote school taxes are high is because like, so Illinois schools are only funded by property taxes. So do you know about this Merlin? Yeah. It's a crazy cockamamie scheme. So all your, your, the school funding is tied to the property taxes. So if you live in a rich neighborhood, like where I grew up, you pay very high property

taxes and that's the quote unquote school tax. And it goes to build like world-class schools and hire great teachers and have all these music program and a school librarian. But if you live in a poor neighborhood with low property taxes, you have a worse school and the school's understaffed and they don't have a nurse or a music program. It's like completely unjust. It's like the places where the people least need an advantage.

MerlinYeah, you get like a mobile home and a science book from the 50s. Yeah. But it's the part that makes this, I mean, first of all, this is some very, very basic reasoning. Even if I were somebody who agreed with this guy, I would go, wow, I'm not sure you made your case so great here. But part of it is also like, you know how in Parks and Rec, everybody hates libraries and salads? It's a little bit like that. Like he seems to almost feel like libraries are a menace. Like one such reason is the rise of third places, such as Starbucks. They provide residents with a comfortable place to read, surf the web, meet their friends and associates.

You can meet your friends or your associates there and enjoy a great drink. I would take issue with the word great. This is why some people have started using their loyalty card at Starbucks more than they use their library card. Ergo, what the fuck? On top of this, streaming services such as Netflix and Amazon Prime have replaced video rentals.

MaxThat thing about the loyalty card, it sounds like one of those intellectual Facebook memes where it's like, Like, damn, if only people use their library card as much as they use their credit card. It really makes you think. It really makes you think. If only they had to hold a big sale for a B1 bomber.

MerlinFirst of all, you know what? Libraries don't fucking rent videos. You check a video out, and then you bring it back. Be kind, Rewind. Actual video rental services like Blockbuster have gone completely out of business. Then there's the rise of digital technology. Oh, digital technology. Well, you know, the thing is a lot of people know about digital technology, but do they know how it's risen?

MaxYeah. I mean, back in the day, you would go to the library for a manual technology like an Archimedean screw.

MerlinUh-huh. Oh, absolutely. Technology has turned— Technology— God, this is the day of the fucking worst writing.

MaxTechnology has turned— Excuse me, librarian, sir. I'm here for a lever. Excuse me, Mr. Friendly. Do you have a simple machine that I could check out? Oh, you only have the digital technology now?

MerlinI see. May I rent your lever? Technology has turned physical books into collector's items. What?

MaxEffectively eliminating the need for library borrowing services. This is the dumbest man alive. I think that he doesn't, I think he doesn't know how books work and he doesn't read, which is part of the reason. Read the next paragraph because boy, he is, he is really gay for Amazon. Of course. Start there, right? Of course there's Amazon books to consider. Amazon have created their own online library. Oh, an online library, you don't say. That has made it easy for the masses. The recently risen technology. That has made it easy for the masses to access both physical and digital copies of books. So it's some sort of online library where I can get books for free and return them?

So the online libraries are good. Is that how that works? Is that right? Because of the risen technology, the online is good? Amazon Books is a chain of bookstores that does what Amazon originally intended to do, replace the local bookstore. It improves on the bookstore model by adding online searches and coffee shops. Now okay let me pause here for a second. Have either of you guys been to an Amazon book? He loves coffee.

AlexYes I have. Holy shit.

MaxSo I went to that one on where is it?

AlexI don't hate it. It's like across the street from Jenny's. Yeah.

Speaker ADiversity?

MaxI think they're super cool but they aren't libraries. So I would say like here's the thing about Amazon books if

Speaker Byou've never been to one. They're kind of cool stores.

MaxThey're very cool. They feel a little futuristic. They're very clean. They sell, obviously, like Kindles and Alexas and stuff. But then they have, they do have hard copies of books. Now, here's what I'm going to say about the book, about why I think this is not only a bad bookstore, but certainly not even in the ballpark of a replacement for a library, is Amazon is using their data to know what books to sell to the people in the location of the store, right? So they use, like, zip code data and trending data, and they put the books in there. And when you go into the store, the assortment of books in that library is absolutely fucking insane.

They have trendy cookbooks. They have conspiracy theory books. They have like chiclet mixed in with like trendy political books. Like it's all algorithmically derived things that are like the most likely book purchases for people to buy. And they stock so few books in these stores that they're all actually displayed cover out. Do you see what I'm saying?

AlexAnd they take that as a point of pride, too.

MaxYeah, so they're not displayed. They're not lined up on a bookshelf like how you think.

MerlinThey're displayed. Because they also, that enables them, a la the Amazon, those retail stores they're putting up, it allows them to know exactly how to do their, as you say, like stock and flow. Like they know when it's time to bring out more of this comic or whatever. Like that's going to integrate very well into their supply chain.

MaxYes. And so they have a very small selection of books. They're all displayed cover out and then underneath they have a little placard with an Amazon review of that book from a user. Now, I don't think I even need to go much further in explaining why this is not a replacement for a library, except to say that the point of the library is where you go to learn about a topic and access the vast wealth of humanity's knowledge, not to find the latest paleo cookbook that an algorithm thought that your zip code might be likely to buy.

Can you fucking imagine if you walked into an Amazon store and went to the kid behind the counter and said, excuse me, sir, can you help me learn about ancient Greece? I think we have a coloring book somewhere. Or what if you walked in and said, hey, I'm interested in going to college. Can you tell me how to start learning about that? You know, that's an information Carly bit that we should do. We should put on our video hats and go to the Amazon store and say, I'm interested.

AlexHi, Carly. Information Carly. Hold up. What's her name?

MaxFrom the Disney Channel.

AlexYeah.

Speaker ACarly, yes. Oh, Max made a reference accidentally.

MaxDo you know what I'm saying, though? Yeah, I do. We do one of those Liberty TV things where we go in with our huge purse with the camera lens zooming out of it.

MerlinOh, you'll do like a Jeanine Pirro, like an on-the-streets type situation?

MaxYeah, and we go in and we're like, excuse me, sir. I would like some information on how to start learning to get an MBA. Could you help me with that? One cup of your least expensive copy for MAGA.

All right, we have to continue. The lobotomy must, the procedure must continue. Okay, and then I got something to say about this.

MerlinPlease. No, no, I'm going to continue. I mean, go ahead and finish. You might as well wrap it up. This is where he really lands this plane.

MaxAmazon Go basically combines a library with a Starbucks, and expanding into the local library space will be an opportunity for the technology giant. at the core Amazon has provided something better than a local library without the tax fees this is what yeah because they offer no goddamn fucking value to anyone they just take money from people for their trendy paleo cookbooks this is why Amazon should replace local libraries the move the move would save taxpayers money and enhance the stockholder value of Amazon all in one fell swoop I expected an in conclusion he does he does Amazon is a land of contrast he does one better

he has a to be fair library surveys do not seem to confirm the idea that public libraries don't have the value they used to a Pew Research Center survey finds that millennials are the most likely generations to use public libraries though it isn't clear whether public libraries are community libraries or school libraries they're not fucking school libraries because we don't have those anymore there are no school libraries anymore there are no school libraries they're fucking media centers. I know. I know. And computer rooms. I know.

And they don't have a librarian and there's no books.

AlexI know. Because there's no money. All right. Well, okay. In conclusion, real-time follow-up, his name is Panos Mordokitis.

It's a Greek name. I'm not sure. We read... How did I get that name

Maxso wrong? Is he a Sacha Baron Cohen? Have we considered that he's a Sacha Baron Cohen? You know, when you go into these interviews, Okay, when you go into these interviews and they sit down across from this guy whose face he looks like one of the He looks like up like one of those masks from like a commercial and the face is melting off tonight And and you said they sit down next to this guy and he's like and he's like my name I'm around we teach four-year-olds how to shoot and you're like don't they realize that it's a put-on don't they isn't part of their brain? You know don't you have that reaction really really you never questioned this now?

I'm just saying before we get taken in have we considered that this is a Sasha Baron Cohen character

Alexthe reason we got it so wrong is because uh if you notice at the end of the article he plugs his book and it's co-written by uh m supio and it's called the 10 golden rules of leadership classical wisdom of modern leaders uh and part of the description is as aristotle that's so jordan

Merlinpeterson i don't know that reference oh jesus i'm sorry i'm sorry oh you have you have a whole

Alexwe're all waiting for you alex oh i'm sorry um as aristotle tutored alexander the great you too will learn what it takes to conquer all oh nice uh-huh and this guy not only has a boner for amazon but he also has a boner for starbucks i need to take a walk i can't it's so bad he talks about starbucks in every one of the articles he writes for forbes it's so in alex order this book

Maxfor all of us. This is going to be

Merlina challenge. I tried to check out the library. Yeah. I feel I have a lot of feelings about this that are way too long to go into here. But I mean, my basic point would be that a library is a lot more than a library, especially if you talk to anybody who works in a library. There's a lot more to a library than the books that are on the shelves right now or the copy machines or any of that. And in my mind, it's funny. I feel I feel almost like calling a library a library. You know how the conventional wisdom, how it's amazing that Apple were able to get us to buy a pocket computer by calling it a phone.

I think it's a similar thing with libraries. Because when you talk about a branch library, you're talking about a whole bunch of stuff. You're talking about help getting forms. You're talking about classes. You're talking about restrooms. You're talking about copy machines. And you are talking, I mean, when we talk about this being a community center, like there's already a building for now. There's a building like in your neighborhood that is a conduit to all kinds of stuff that's not just an 80-year-old book. But let's not exclude the importance of the 80-year-old books. Just the books on the shelves are not what makes it a library.

The library is it's a resource for learning about the world, which sounds really silly, but that could be getting help with your taxes. It could be getting help with, like you said, Max, like just finding where to go next. But the one, I mean, the way that this all comes together for me is with how much borrowing we do electronically, which is to say, on the one hand, And that infrastructure that we call the library, the hugest part of that for me, and for me, a privileged white guy, cis white guy in day-to-day usage, is that I can go onto this website

and request any book in the San Francisco Public Library System, and it will be available for pickup a block from my house, don't be creepy, in rarely more than three days. Furthermore, I can get eBooks. I have hooked it up with my Kindle. I use an app called Libby, and I can go in and search for any book, and it will appear instantly on my Kindle. That's library too. So library is not just old books. This is before we even get into the resources that this helps in terms of what this means to the community of people who don't have any other kind of resources. Librarians end up being the last social net in a lot of ways. And that infrastructure that's already existing as a running building with electric and water is in so many communities. And just getting rid of those, I mean, I don't know what happens next when you get rid of the libraries. It certainly is not a good look.

MaxIt's hard for me to think of. It's hard for me to even think of. I mean, to me, I think like, like if you go to ask a lot of conservatives or sort of sort of more, you know, whatever, centrist liberals or whatever, like if you go ask them, like, what is the special thing about America? Like, you know, if you go around saying America is the greatest country on earth and we're the land of opportunity and the American dream and all that, like, what is the special thing about America that makes America America? I think a lot of people would say it's the idea that you can come here and make it, right? That you come to America with nothing or you're born with nothing and that you can make your own destiny and you can make your own life and you can be like a self-made man and that we have this land of opportunity and that we value that.

And that's almost the library is one of the last places in society where we actually practice that, where you can actually go in with no money, with nothing but the clothes on your back. And you can learn and you can better yourself and you can have access to the Internet and like you said, the copy machines and forms and all the things you need to like get your shit together.

MerlinBut like your point, though, that's so great is like no matter where you are, like you could be you could be somebody with a Ph.D. and you still have stuff to learn from the library. You could be somebody who just arrived fresh off the boat and there's so much you can get from the library There's nobody that the library harms and everybody that the library helps right?

MaxIt's like it's it's the it's one of the last places in our society where we actually embody that ideal of everybody gets a shot No matter who you are like you you know, you know, I mean like yes Everybody can go to the library and teach themselves something or or pick up a skill or or or whatever And it just it just infuriates me It's like the last one it's the last one like we don't really help people with a social safety net anymore We certainly don't give people health care. We certainly don't provide a college education people But the last fucking thing is there's this free building where you can go and like read a book and just figure it out yourself

It's the last one we have to get rid of it We have to replace it with a fucking amazon bookstore with their their their You know their goddamn Memoirs and paleo cookbooks, but it's that's why I say it's so wrong. It's not even right

MerlinI mean, it's like it's so it's such a confused idea. It's not that different than saying we should replace municipal buses with car lots. Right. It's like not. I mean, like, yeah, it's kind of about the same sort of thing, but like it doesn't even make any sense.

MaxWell, everyone, now that I learned that you can just pay to put articles on Forbes. You didn't tell us the whole turns out because you haven't gotten to the deletion yet. Well, they pulled the article. It is no longer. So Forbes took down the article without comment. Correct. No comment. It just made a completely memory hold it. And then a friend of the show, Felix Salmon, said, he had tweeted, I just found out that as a member of the Forbes contributor network, the Amazon should replace libraries guy was not paid for his piece. Instead, he paid Forbes to publish it.

Going rate, $1,400 for 12 posts a year. So that, that.

MerlinAccording to my daughter, that's a very good deal.

MaxYou got $120 to have an article in quote unquote Forbes.

AlexOh boy.

MaxBut, but that kind of, that kind of blew my mind. But then I think there was a double triple turns out where Forbes said, no, he wasn't part of. So they did. The contributor network is real, but he wasn't part of it. He actually is a writer for Forbes. So they paid him for that.

AlexThat's almost worse. But now that I know that this exists.

MaxAnyway, now that I know that this exists, I am going to pay the $1,400 to become a Forbes contributor. And everyone can look forward to my article. We should nationalize Amazon and run it like a library.

MerlinDiggit, digit, digit, challenge. This week's challenge was... Who? Who had the challenge this week? Oh, was it Anita?

MaxIt was...

AlexMax basically chose it.

MaxWell, but it's not my challenge.

AlexIt was Alex's challenge, but she couldn't think of one. No, you lost the opportunity.

MerlinOh, shit. Do I have? Is it my challenge this week? I've got a good one for you.

AlexWell, well. Good, good, good.

MerlinGood, good, good. Good challenge. This week's challenge comes from Alex. All right, Alex.

AlexNo, I don't even know what it was called. Go, go, go.

MerlinI called it Be Kind.

AlexBe Kind.

MerlinRewind.

AlexBe Kind was the challenge, I think?

MerlinChallenge. The challenge was that we all have opportunities to help or communicate with people. The original challenge was something like, like, respond to an email that you'd previously kind of blown off and give a more thoughtful or a tweet or whatever or discourse. And am I doing this right? And give some kind of like a more detailed response than you would. How would you frame it, Max?

MaxYeah, that's exactly right. Just make yourself available to, like, help one person and actually, like, give them. Like, go through the exercise of if you really responded to every email, like, completely earnestly, like, go through that exercise once. Right it's a good channel. Well, so I did mine in a little bit of an interesting way because I actually do reply to most people's emails in a completely earnest way So what I had the flight back from California. It's about about three and a half hour flight and I just Went on Twitter. I was watched the the I had the good wife on in the little window the whole picture in picture

MerlinOh, you're counting. This is your challenge

MaxAnd I said three and I said for three hours I got my FAQs. It's me max and I said for three and a half hours hours it's a time hack write all your things thank you hey it's me uh and i said for three and a half hours i'm opening my dms and i'll answer any question and i just tried to be very genuine and give people help and i listen to their things and a lot of people asked me for shit and i did what i could to give it to them and that was it and i had a couple of different examples that i wanted to bring out all involving merlin i did get about oh jesus please don't so i probably got i probably got like i really wish you wouldn't so i probably did about 150 dms or

public reply. Some of them you can see on my Twitter timeline, the public ones. But I probably did about 150, 200 of these, and I got maybe a dozen people just wanted information about Merlin. They just had questions about Merlin. I thought I would share some of those, and we could address them on the podcast. This is, what's your view on Merlin's opinion that interacting with the fans is a burden? I think I've been very clear about that. You've been very clear that you view the fans only as a burden. Purely as a burden.

And that any boundaries you put on the relationship is an expression of your personal dislike of them. And I said, I think everybody who's extremely online, like me or Merlin, desperately craves the attention. And no matter what they say otherwise, they need the people to pay attention to them and engage with them. Nice. Thank you. What do you think about that? Good job. And then a friend of the show, Stephen, said...

MerlinI just want to be super clear. I am not responding to this. You really want me to respond? I will respond, absolutely not true in any way. Be funny. Be nice. Be kind. Don't be needy. I respond to a lot of people and I interact with a lot of people, but like make it worth my while. Make it worth both of our while. That's all I ask. All I ask is remember I'm a fucking human being that has as much to do every day as you do. And I treat me like a human being the same way I would treat you a human being. I'm not a poster. Like I shit like everybody else. Like don't be a

dick and don't be a serial dick who's super needy would be some advice I'd give. I extremely agree with that. And I think there's a great blog post. It's funny to set me up like that. But on the

Maxother hand, beef, beef, do better, as Griffin would say, do better. Yeah, there's there's a great blog post by Jason Fried from Basecamp called like, don't pick my brain. And he's like, you know, I get a lot of these and I mean, Max, I get a lot of these emails to people email and say, hey, can I pick your brain on this topic? And it's kind of annoying because what the person is saying is like, can I like suck all the value out of you for like a half hour? And Jason's, Freed's advice, which I now give to people too, is like, well, instead of saying, can I pick your brain? Why don't you ask for help for something that you need and acknowledge that it's a favor

that I'm doing for you. And instead of minimizing it by saying, can I pick your brain, but then also offer me some value, say, and I'm happy to share my thoughts on this or that. Like everybody has something to teach or tell about. But it does not scale. It's not scalable. How many times have I

Merlinsaid to you guys, I can't talk to you right now because I'm doing a thing. You guys get to be in your bonnet and you start having a we all do this with each other. We'll get really excited about talking about something and I'll just have to say I can't talk about this right now. I'm doing a different thing. Right. And like does that make me a bad person? Well no, guess what? I can't talk because I'm recording a different podcast right now. I'm not going to stop the podcast I'm doing to address your need in the next three minutes. Why don't you pass us in there? This is called being an adult. It's called being an adult and being able to say that there are boundaries that must be observed. Don't like

Maxit when people tweet back catchphrases from things at me. I do not like people posting Cards Against Humanity cards at me or doing catchphrases from Dubai Friday. I don't like it. I don't care for it. And the reason is, I appreciate that you're saying that, as Merlin says, you're going like, I love you. And I get that. But the reason is, I feel like the enjoyment of those bits is a little bit of a scarce quantity. In the same way that I feel like listening to Radiohead albums is a scarce quantity.

No, seriously. The great albums that I really love, like like neutral milk hotel there's only so many times in my life i can listen to it and have it be really fresh and good and so i try to be mindful you don't want to like wear it down yeah if i listen to airplane over the sea every day it would mean a little bit less than if i listened to it a few times a year so i try you know like an example is like those really top albums that i love i try not to put them on in the background while i'm doing work because i i want to when i listen to it i really want to savor it does that make sense yeah the same oh yeah the same thing is true i think of these bits of like it's not that i don't like them and it's not that they're

not funny, but tweeting it at me three times a day, it kind of cheapens it. Like, how many times do you think it's going to be good? Because it won't be good the hundredth time.

MerlinYeah, it's complicated for sure. I can't tell you how often I don't do that, but I would want to do that. Like my affection for certain properties is so deep in my bones that it's really hard for me not to interact with the people involved in that property in a way that I know is super annoying. So I really do. I really do try to stop myself. It's hard not to do, though, because they are people are saying I love you when they do that.

MaxYou think when Justin McElroy tweets anything at all, any social media at all about food, he doesn't have 10,000 people go, crunch time.

Speaker BI want too much.

MaxMy squad. Squad. But I'm just saying, like, it kind of makes it a little bit less. You're sapping a little. Crunch time. Whatever. Crunch time. You're sapping a little, just a little. You're not ruining it, but you're just sapping a little bit of the joy from him the next time he's going to do it on the podcast.

Alexyou know the thing with i like it when people do like a little twists on what we do and like respond to something and usually they don't tag like do by friday and it'll it'll like just be me and they'll i i don't have a good example of it but it's like oh you did a funny thing and you acknowledged something funny i said and it's it's really sweet and flattering i don't know i i like it most of the time yeah at everything really a really nice thing at alex cox one one person um

MaxOne person DM'd me and was like, hey, could you take a look at my – what is it? My anti-Trump – or no, my Trump-Russia scandal trading cards. Talking about Trump? Yeah, the Trump – my Trump-Russia like Putin trading cards. And they're like factual like baseball cards but with facts about Trump-Russia. And I tweeted back trying to be helpful and polite. I was like, oh, hey, like I wrote a whole thing on my FAQ about how to sort of do protest stuff. And I have a bunch of advice about specifically about making anti-Trump products and things on my website, which is MaxEssentialism.com slash FAQ.

Link will be in the show notes. And in that FAQ, I was hoping that she would read the FAQ. And in the FAQ, I say in the strongest possible terms, do not make an anti-Trump novelty bullshit. It's not helping. Or rather, I don't say don't make it. I say if you make it, know that it's not helping. Instead, you should spend those calories like working for a congressional campaign. And then she just tweeted me back and was like, thanks for the link, but what do you think about my trading cards? So sometimes it doesn't get through.

MerlinYeah, I mean, it depends a lot because, I mean, there are certain kinds of ways that you can interact with people. I mean, obviously, there's just stuff like basic responses and gratitude and things like that. But, you know, sometimes it's difficult because to say something that would actually be really meaningful. I think we've talked about this, but there's nothing really meaningful that's going to take a lot more. Actually, we talked about this with Anita in the after show. It's like it's very difficult to engage with one person for an extended amount of time

and have that be something that you do on a day-to-day, I have found. You can do it, and there are times I absolutely do it, but I like to be the one who gets to choose that. But a public back and forth with somebody, there are people who live for that on Twitter, but I could not accomplish anything in a day if I found myself being expected to respond again and again and again. I don't do that with my friends. I don't have time to be a good parent. How could I possibly have time to answer every stranger at length?

Which is such an awful mean thing for me to say. I pray you get busy enough that you start to worry about that too.

AlexShould I talk about my things?

MerlinMax did that. Alex, how did you do? Did you do tooting at people? Well, no. This is so much more depressing than I expected. My God.

AlexNo, no, no. There were some emails that I had just been avoiding for a while that were very not personal invasive to me, but they were asking for advice about stuff that I felt like I was not qualified to answer about mental illness stuff or gender stuff. or just like confidence stuff. And there are some, and I don't really want to share some of them. Some people ask them, ask that they wouldn't be shared,

but they became like, I don't know. There was something in my head, but like, I don't, I don't know if this will help you, but here's what helped me. And here are like some really great resources in your area. And a lot of people reached out about the Indianapolis story I told about just, and I just threw it out there. Like, oh yeah. like I get harassed in Indiana and that's just like this that was like one of the smallest stories that I have uh and I was I was like kind of overwhelmed with how many people responded

with support of that uh being like hey are you okay and it was really sweet um and then I last night because Merlin you you joked in the after show that I was probably just gonna tweet like hey goofy old Alex here uh anyone need a favor so last night um that's right you totally did yeah last last night old Alex here she comes and last night I did that um just to expecting most people to do some goofs and we did it was

like some fun like goofy stuff over Twitter one of my favorites oh guys I gotta send you this link someone's like uh hey can you add me on pogo and so i went to this site it's not even gonna load oh my god oh my god it's like the yahoo answers something's gone wrong fucking games uh it's oh my god uh pogo.com and i'm like oh god and i kept i i i i kept um trying to sign up is this what am i looking at and i was like i was like dude i'm sorry and i sent him all these

screenshots of like how I had tried to do it um and he's like oh I'm so sorry I meant Pokemon Go and I'm like oh of course yeah yeah be my I totally I'm sorry I'm sorry if you missed what

Merlinhappens when you have a relationship with someone on Pokemon Go what's involved nothing nothing you

Alexjust trade get you can't even chat you just trade gifts and you help each other level up and it's really it's it's nice it's it's like a zero stakes type of thing um and it was very and I just thought was funny and we and we joked around about how bad this this weird flash site is um and then i

Merlinstill has legs right i mean i feel like i see people standing outside the furniture store a

Alexcouple times a month still it's coming it's coming back hard uh but something that surprised me um a lot of people just tweeted back like no no favor just wanted to say how much i like your stuff and like how much even you know even how much it just like Maddie's stuff and it makes my

Merlinday you got gifted the magi it turned around it was not strictly true but that's really nice that

Alexyou ended up getting good things I wasn't expecting that and there were a few people who who were like hey can you check out my book hey dude I'm I want to read your book it looks interesting I do want the the I have this is my formal request again for for a promo code link because I couldn't figure out how to buy it um other otherwise I would um and then more advice about just stuff that I would always feel about I feel like I don't I'm not qualified to talk about these things but uh I

realized that when when I was a kid talking talking to strangers on the internet is what got me through some really tough times and it wasn't I the reason I felt weird about this challenge is because I don't want to be like the the radio person talking to a fan of someone i i just want to be someone talking to to to a stranger about something we might have in common and that doesn't mean that we're going to be best friends or we're going to talk every day or something part of the problem

Merlinwith twitter as the medium for this the one part that's great about it is the access and the ease of it and as far as like somebody saying like i'll frequently i mean it almost seems so random to people, but a surprising amount of time, I will send a tweet to somebody like who has no idea who I am, but I like their podcast. I like their thing. Like Chris Malanfi, like the guy from the Hit Parade show. I was just like, oh my God, I love your show. I'm so glad you're doing this REM and B52s episode. Thanks for doing what you do. And like I do that, I do that fairly often and have what feels like such an ideal exchange,

which is they say, thanks, I'm glad you like it. And then we're done. Now, the problem with Twitter in things like what we're describing here is whether or not you intend it to be, it becomes a performance. It becomes an online performance. Because the truth is you can't have two people on a stage and then an audience full of people without some people from the audience walking on a stage, too. That's what it's for. That's how it's designed to be that way. but it can be very difficult to narrow cast a message to one person without also having to then think about like well what if one person sees the sixth tweet in this thread out of context and

now i'm involved in that and you know i'm saying oh absolutely somebody takes something out of context and now like that becomes the thing you're expected to answer for which is why i did the the

Alexdm thing because i didn't want it to be like we're performing this this interaction for you max are

MaxAre your DMs usually open? Well, I'm trying to think about how I want to talk about this. Okay, but you don't normally just have the door wide open. Well, it's okay. It's okay. Alex, do you? Okay, the truth is my DMs are always open. But it's amazing how not often people DM me. It's very rare that people DM me.

MerlinI find that so surprising.

MaxYeah, me too. When I say, if I do a thing like, if I say on Twitter for the next three hours my DMs are open, I get flooded. But I think people just don't realize that that's like a feature.

AlexI think that's a polite thing to do, honestly.

MaxHave you guys ever had open DMs?

AlexHonestly, they were open. Sometimes they're open, but when I, for example, do an angry turf tweet or something where I know that there's going to be a lot of feedback.

MerlinYou need a workflow for this. Then I close them up. One button to batten down all the hats.

MaxI want to make my, I don't know, Merlin, I don't even know, I don't know if you know about this feature. But if your DMs are open, Twitter actually gives you two DM inboxes. So there's one called your inbox, and that's where people who you follow, their messages go. No way. And then there's another one called requests. And requests is a separate.

MerlinI've never heard of this.

MaxYeah, so requests is a separate tab. And what it says is this is where you'll see messages from people you don't follow. And they will not know that you've seen them until you accept it. So a new message comes in and you can look at it and there's two buttons, accept or delete.

Speaker BYeah.

MaxSo it's pretty low cost for my DMs to be open because if someone sends me something and I don't like it, like I get, you know, weird ads or comments or propositions. I just delete it and they don't even know whether I've seen it or not.

MerlinRight, right, right, right. Sort of like the way on iOS that like if it's an unknown sender, you can have it sent to that other tab.

AlexYeah, yeah. I really like that. Instagram, I also do. I feel like people are finally figuring this out.

MaxIt's not bad to have open DMs. And, you know, I'll just put in my pitch for Twitter being the right medium for this versus like email or something. What I like about Twitter is that it has a form of built in damage control and that you really can't waste too much of my time on Twitter. Like there's only so much characters you can send to me.

MerlinYou don't have to read all the way to the bottom to decide that it wasn't worth your time.

MaxYou know, I'm good. If someone sends me something, I'm going to read it. And so I'd much rather they send me a tweet than an email. Well, makes sense.

MerlinYeah. Yeah.

Alexnobody asked me to plug anything they just purely like uh there were a couple things where like i've been asked to be on podcasts before and i i've said yes and then it's just like falling through the cracks because of dms that i accepted and then i missed them um but there this one guy um he's at alex alex janes uh and his store isn't quite up yet but he makes these amazing uh custom pieces of furniture and he was just like do you think this is cool and and he showed me some like custom cat furniture and i was like dude yeah i was like why aren't i'm like why isn't this like on your

twitter page or on your stories like oh yeah i'm gonna yeah i should i should get this out i'm like yeah uh heck yeah um and it was just amazing um and and there's another show that's come out that i really like called um it's uh oh damn it i'll put in the uh the his he's not at now we're we are all Tom um but he does a show where you pick a specific moment in Doctor Who and talk about it so I'm gonna be on that show and I don't want to spoil you should do that Max uh that is just

bamboo under the fingernails yeah no I when he flips his scarf I have I have a very surprising moment I think people uh and I'm super excited about that um because this year has been the thing where I try not to say yes to like anything unless I'm like oh fuck yes and that is absolutely my jam um and then at hot-headed cook was like will you let me teach you how to cook wow and i was like okay let's let's do this and so we're we're starting this is the only like

prolonged exchange i'm probably gonna have um but but we've like had some funsies on twitter before uh and they already know that this is gonna sure be something what they're they're undertaking

Speaker Aso yeah um it was really i wasn't expecting uh i i thank you everybody who said thanks super nice it was you uh you attract good people uh merlin are you gonna talk about what you did if you want you can okay

MerlinI searched for hours to try and find Alex's note that I never got and so I wrote back to young Alex from today anyway I love you

AlexI love you too Merlin man thanks

Merlinit was hard to do was it okay

Speaker AI okay so do you want me to set it up what's happening did you find the original email I mean I don't feel like you need to share it

Merlinyou don't need to share it publicly but if you want to show Max you can

Speaker AI mean can I share it publicly I don't

MerlinI mean yeah sure

Speaker Ado you have the original email that I sent

Merlinno that's the thing I searched for hours and I couldn't find it I tried every single Boolean I could think of with involving your name, various parts of your name, the subject line that would have come from, and I could not find it to save my life.

Speaker ASo I never saw it.

MerlinI never saw it, like I said. Anyway, this is dorky.

MaxWait, are you guys still upset about the libraries?

MerlinWhat's going on here? Yeah, it's a goddamn library. You know, the thing is, that could be a Del Taco. You know, that would be good for the shareholder value of Del Taco. You don't make friends with salad. Oh, boy.

Sioux salads. You don't have to. No, I mean, really, do what you want to do.

Speaker AWell, I want to read it at least.

MaxIf you guys are both openly weeping over here.

Speaker AI'm not weeping. Oh, God. That's how I spent my day yesterday. It's been four years, and Max hasn't yet seen me cry, and now it's happening, as are my interns and our engineer. Cool. They all got their faces pressed up against the glass in there. Like, what is happening? What is happening? Oh, sorry, Garrett.

MerlinI don't want to over dramatize this I did the thing and I'm really glad I did it And I hope it wasn't too awful

Speaker ANo no no

MaxWould you guys write each other a nice letter

Speaker ANo I didn't write any I didn't write any I'm going through my I can't even find it in my Email now because there's Oh my god

MerlinSee this is why we shouldn't have email

Speaker AExactly right come on Sparrow Spark what am I doing uh all right hold on hold on all right well thanks for listening to Dubai Friday everybody this has been another great episode in the can Max shut up um oh god nope cut that out don't fire me um Merlin wrote me an email that said sorry for the late response and it was just this email

Alexto like uh literally 10 years ago 2008 alex about like what uh there's this meme going around like

Speaker Awhat would you tell your uh like past self and i was like i don't know you're still gonna be alive like you exceeded the life expense expectancy for people with what's with your uh brain problems um and Merlin just wrote a really great email that I know now that I won't be able to read uh out loud uh but I I I think I'll put it somewhere because I think it'll help people um and then

Merlinthere was just a bit about I just I just wanted you to know how uh how it turns out yeah and then

Speaker Athere was just a part about Maddie and yeah uh it it was very good and and yesterday I uh I'm like what was I even doing um oh good the tears are actually falling down my face nice what a uh the the um I was like freaking organizing cables of course oh now I'm gonna talk into my mic again uh and i went to like the one place in the office i don't think people would find me

which is the print studio because i'm never in there and i was like in a corner openly weeping

Alexfor about an hour um time theft uh and then uh one of our interns cory and luckily cory has been interning for us for like four years for like as long as i've been working here so he knew he was like okay alex is doing a thing he's like anything i can do for you what's up and i'm like no i'm just reading a nice email from a friend and it made me very happy and he's like okay cool uh and then he closed the door and put a do not enter sign i'm wiping boogers into my shirt um nice

so i'm gonna throw boogers on those stamps um what what prompted you to do this merlin

MerlinI was just thinking about, I went through and I'm getting ready for back to work on Tuesday. I spend probably a lot more time in email than people realize or would imagine, which is that, for example, I read every email we get at back to work and I try to pick out ones where I could help somebody out. A lot of what I do is responding offline to people because it's really too sensitive to talk about online. That's like a thing I do every Tuesday.

Speaker AYeah. Yeah.

MerlinIt's a scheduled thing I do. And then I pick out ones that we could talk about on air. And I try to find the ones that are the hardest question that we can conceivably maybe answer. And I pick out one to five of those. We don't do all of them. But then I was thinking, oh, this is perfect. I know there's got to be millions of these. But no, it turns out it was mostly people who want people to be on our podcast and talk about their book. And then I was thinking like, oh, shit, I should find it would be so funny if I found Alex's email finally and responded to it. I swear to God, I could not find it. Then I thought, you know, fuck it.

I don't even know when this was from. but young Alex needs to hear some things about how the world turns out and how life goes. So, did it. Yay!

Speaker ADid you give it to Max? Did you give it to Max? Oh, I'll set.

MaxWell, I don't want to cry too. Nah, it's not that good. No, I'm the only one who's got my shit together here.

Speaker AOh, boy.

MaxI'm reading about how Star Trek bridge crew for the next generation comes out to PC and VR devices this week.

Speaker AOh, interesting.

MerlinI recommended your Star Trek guide on Back to Work. You did.

Speaker AOh, thank you.

MerlinThat's nice. Shall I forward it to Max?

Speaker AOh, I got it. I got it. My palms are all sweaty.

MerlinIt's kind of long. You know what? You don't need to read the whole thing.

Speaker AIt's very, it's, yeah. Again, so much time theft was committed yesterday. Did I get it, Max? Yeah.

AlexAnd I was just a very, it was, I think 2018 Alex was more surprised to get this response than 2008 alex would have been see it's like when i turned uh yeah yep yep yep um

Merlinthat's how i get you

Alexwhat was funny was you you mentioned uh uh that guy who makes uh sells cards to target and it i was like wait what don't spoil it don't spoil it sorry that was like the one bit that tripped

Speaker AI'm like hold on what?

MaxThis is very sweet. Oh boy. This is very sweet. Oh, yeah Merlin you're good writer. Have you ever thought about writing? I thought about it thought it's a lot of fucking work I feel like you could do this professionally

Show notes

Transcript

89. Gargac!

Show notes

Transcript

0:00

0:28

0:31

0:32

0:36

0:41

0:42

0:44

0:49

0:57

1:04

1:06

1:09

1:10

1:13

1:17

1:29

1:35

1:42

1:45

1:46

1:59

2:01

2:09

2:43

3:14

3:23

3:31

3:34

3:35

3:38

3:51

3:59

4:06

4:08

4:21

4:28

4:29

4:34

4:37

4:45

4:57

4:59

5:04

5:10

5:12

5:14

5:16

5:18

5:20

5:28

5:34

5:44

5:46

5:48

6:01

6:06

6:07

6:08

6:10

6:10

6:12

6:14

6:15

6:22

6:33

6:54

6:58

7:13

7:14

7:29

7:31

7:55

7:59

8:29

8:59

9:13