Do By Friday
Episode 28 artwork
Episode 28 · May 31, 2017 · 01:14:32

28. The Corner of Dingle and Dingle

This week's challengeRead something by Ron Jonson.
dobyfriday.comApple PodcastsOvercastPatreon

Show notes

Show Notes

Subscribe to Do By Friday in iTunes, Overcast, or via RSS.

Transcript

Tap a timestamp or any sentence to play from there · machine transcribed (mlx:mlx-community/whisper-large-v3-turbo), expect mistakes

AlexThis is Do By Friday, the weekly challenge podcast with Merlin Mann, Alex Cox and Max Temkin. This week's challenge, read something by John Ronson.

MerlinMax here?

AlexUh, no.

MerlinIs this the show?

AlexWhy not?

MerlinIn the morning, as you know, I wander around in our house and I stand in the sunshine at my daughter's Ikea kitchen, which is my standing desk. And I sit there and I do things. And I look outside and I look for Big Dog, Little Dog. And I look for the man who goes through our trash and the other man who goes through our trash. And I say hello and I identify all the people in the neighborhood. And I put on my fancy Plantronics Bluetooth headphones and I listened to things. And I have my headphones on. And apparently I said, oh my God.

Speaker AOh my God. And I hear, and my wife is talking to me.

MerlinSo I have to take off my fancy Plantronics headphones. And she goes, what? What is it? I said, oh, I just saw something amazing. She goes, oh, cobble. I said, excuse me? She says, cobble.

I said, I don't know what that means. She said, well, there was a big explosion in cobble. I was like, oh, no, Nest Cam is releasing a really, really cool new camera. It can detect cats.

Have you seen it?

AlexNo, I haven't.

MerlinIt shoots at 4K, and it can follow things. It could, like, follow your cat's butt.

Alexoh i mean that's the dream really one of my cats has a very distinct anus so i don't think it would

Merlinbe a problem your cat's anus could not hold a candle my cat's anus my cat's anus is like something it eldritch horror it is it is like a cthulhu anus it is blacker it's like that special paint that only like you know you have to license it's the blackest darkest widest deepest most textured anus that I've ever seen in my life. Gail, right? Aunt Gail would never paint this cat's anus. This cat's anus is going to make you think

hard about decisions that you've made in life. This is going to make you think differently about climate change. When you see the texture of my cat's anus, you're going to start moving some things around. I'll get a photo for you

Alextoday. Oh, boy.

MerlinOh, it's bad because if she lifts her tail a little bit, everybody goes, ah!

AlexIs she not a tail up cat?

MerlinMore than I'd like. she lays down a lot like i sent you a lot of pictures of her from my i can't pillow collection like we're just having trouble figuring out how to use a pillow yeah but then sometimes she she couple times a day she gets up to walk around and she it's just it's like the size of a silver dollar oh yeah oh or maybe a silver dollar pancake it's really really big it's really really black and she gets cleaned pretty regularly yeah but it's also got kind of like a like a looks a little bit like a like a black catcher's mitt it's very it's very grainy it's got it's got a lot of

presence to it it looks like it looks like it looks like her anus has been somebody has applied an unsharp mask to it and all the detail really pops as black as it is when you stare into the

Alexanus the anus stares back at you i'm just really impressed uh my my one of my well one of my cats is a perfectly pink always clean anus so it does not matter that she's a tail up cat the other one though, he developed some freckles. And so it's like a gamble. Is that shit on his butt? You don't want to shame him. No. Oh, well, he gets his butt touched a lot. And I've gone now through the cycle of I just changed my pillowcase every day

because I don't know what has happened. Oh, yeah.

MerlinWell, you know, ours has all the face ooze. like of course every photo i take people like what are you what's wrong with your cat's face well she is a hidey a deliberate hideous monstrosity people took pains to choose which cat they wanted to fuck the other cat until mine was created they wanted it to be it was broken by design it has invaginations in its face that produce a brown ooze oh and that then that gets on the pillow and um yeah because she likes to go and make a little little uh nest speaking of nest

nest 4k security cam promises to see more oh shit oh oh so wait so is this not on the

Alexwebsite yet is it is this a verge exclusive i'm not i don't know do do um do nest cam and hit news

Merlinyou'll see it oh the verge is the version one that was really bad the crash people just like to make fun of it what's the one that crashed their accuses computer uh probably the verge i

AlexI mean, they have very, you know, to have...

MerlinHeavy page, heavy page.

AlexYou're supposed to call it curvy, Merlin.

MerlinZoftig. They have Zoftig pages. Oh. It's a really nice page. Great personality. Really pretty face. Makes her own clothes.

AlexYou'd be forgiven for thinking that Nest, the company that so wonderfully disrupted the home thermostat market back in 2011, has been in...

Speaker AMoribund? What is that word?

AlexWhy do you need that

Merlinto use that word? and that's exactly

AlexMoribund is near death

Merlinwhat they've been.

AlexYeah, but... They like to use fancy words over at The Verge. Remember when that guy went offline for a year and then...

MerlinAnd then came back to write an internet article about it? Ugh, political Twitter. Was it Kabul?

AlexI don't know. I was in bed and I turned off my phone at 1030 and then I woke up this morning and I got missed out. Oh, I did. I missed out on all the hot takes. All of it's OK. It's OK.

MerlinHe's a silly. What is what is a love it say? He's a dotty old racist like. Oh, yeah, it's OK. Oh, just old grandpa, uncle racism. I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,

Listening to your other shows is so interesting. It provides such texture for beginning my journey and understanding who you are. Because I knew it was going to be a journey, but it's getting super. I don't really understand the personal importance of your robot thing. And I don't really want you to tell me because I want to continue the journey of discovery. Because I really don't understand it. Not in a bad way, but it is fucking fascinating to me.

AlexDo you kind of want to be a robot? Oh, oh, well, God, I mean, I want to be a cyborg. I would like to maintain what, well, see, that's the thing. It is the Catholic problem of I would like to maintain my human consciousness, if only to share what that is, as flawed as it is, with what may eventually be an actual conscious artificial intelligence. But short answer, yes.

MerlinBut, okay, so you want to have your Catholic problem. You want to have your consciousness. You would like to have potentially technology-aided, like, both bodily integrity and technological improvement. Yeah?

AlexOh, yes. Yeah, mentally and physically. I don't like pooping. I don't understand why people like it. Really? No, it's an act of shame every time. It's a Catholic thing.

MerlinCatholic thing. And also with you. Yo, Toe!

Speaker BI'm very excited.

AlexMax has his iPad today.

MaxOh.

AlexYeah. How you doing?

MaxI'm all hungover today. Oh, I'm sorry.

AlexDo you want me to turn off the bright lights? Actually. I'm going to turn off the bright.

MaxI got it. I got it. I just want to point out that last week I was on time and you were both late.

MerlinI'm sorry, man. My bad. What is it? Oh, God, for you guys, it's 1220? I'm so sorry.

MaxI do not feel good.

MerlinWhat happened, Max? Did you have a beverage?

MaxI just went drinking last night. A little more than I could handle. I was trying to be cool.

MerlinWell, if those people want you to drink, they're not your real friends.

AlexMerlin, did I ever tell you that I won the D.A.R.E.E.A. contest when I was in fifth grade?

MerlinThe dare, the drug, keep kids off drugs thing?

AlexYeah, you dare to resist drugs and violence, but I guess that's not in San Francisco. I don't even know if it's a thing anymore.

MerlinNo, I know dare. I was struggling to remember what it stands for. Is it a backronym? I always said dare to keep kids off drugs. Drug abuse resistance education, which sounds kind of Cambodian. So fifth grade, what did you write about, Alex?

AlexHow you shouldn't take drugs.

MerlinOh, that's a good topic. That's a really good topic for that.

AlexHonestly, I think they just, I used my Oxford commas, and I had correct grammar, and they're like, all right, here, here's a bear.

MaxAs part of the, we had two programs in middle school that were sort of these like branded, you know, programs that the school buys. I always imagine a sort of music man-like hustler who comes like singing and dancing into the school and sells like a program that's like mostly posters that you can hang up. You got drunk driving. and uh the two that we had in middle school were uh we had one that was dare it was anti-drug posters and another that was like reading that was like books with some posters with like a celebrities that um that told you to read and the two that always stood out in my mind they were

hung up in my at least in my memory they were hung up right next to each other one of them was a picture and so it was a poster and the caption it said drugs take you places you've never been before and then on the poster there was like a black teenager in jail like and i think he was like rattling the bars with like a like a metal cup like you know clearly not happy to be in prison and then right next to that there was a picture of there was a picture of whoopi goldberg and it said uh go somewhere you've never been before read a book both of the see the thing is i'd like to do

Merlinboth of those at the same time get you a man that could do both

MaxAre we going to... All right, here's the deal. I'm going to set a timer and we're going to talk about Kefefe for two minutes.

MerlinNo. Oh, yes. Go. No. No. It started, so talk about it or don't. No, it's done. It was done last night. I buried the needle on that last night. We're done. Donezo.

MaxI was asleep. I think that I'm a Kefefe conspiracy theorist.

MerlinI normally do not buy into this whole Stop the timer How do you pronounce it? How are you going with pronouncing this?

MaxKefefe

AlexHow would you pronounce it?

MaxIt doesn't fucking matter You know what?

AlexYou've already gone down the conspiracy route

MaxI would like to know what our friend Merlin We have a minute and 40 seconds left Can I say my conspiracy theory please? I think I normally do not buy into this whole Like oh Trump just wants you to pay attention to this or that It's all important It all matters But in this specific instance Two things happen that make me think that this was like a calculated strike. Number one, Trump is assembling this war room that includes Corey Lewandowski to like take control of the Russia narrative. And everybody's dreading it. And everybody knows that it's coming. And number two, he just paid for half a million bots

to follow him on Twitter yesterday. It just was, did you see that story? It was like widely reported in reputable newspapers that all these bots started following Trump like half a million new accounts.

MerlinA lot of people in India with lots of just a succession of J and K as their name. It was like somebody literally went like on the keyboard. Hello, I'm definitely reading.

MaxSo I think it was another, just yet another news cycle where the main story was Jared Kushner in Russia. I was hearing about it a lot on the mainstream media and CNN and the news. And Trump, I don't even know if he came up with it or Lewandowski or one of his people. And they were like, listen, Doritos does this during the Super Bowl. Remember that? Doritos made some sort of like pound the keyboard like gibberish tweet and everyone fucking lost their minds and then it was sort of like as a marketing ploy to get your attention or was it a real mistake or does that matter i think this was a very deliberate like oh let's just tweet out some goof and the only people like liberals will

find it irresistible to talk about and make fun of trump and make jokes about but no actual voter gives a shit about the cafe tweet it's like not a thing that's my theory three seconds does anyone

Alexhave a response you're wrong uh totally unrelated i respect max's political opinions more than probably anybody i know but after knowing what i know about his edgar wright opinions um

Merlinit colors a lot of things the reason we can't talk about that the reason we can't talk about this though as i discussed with you in our secret private channel is that the problem is once he realizes you guys have a secret back channel it's in the google doc problem is he's gonna come around he's gonna go and he's gonna go oh i see hot fuzz is actually one of the great movies and then he's gonna talk about it he's gonna get all the different versions he's gonna get the 25th anniversary soundtrack and all of a sudden he's gonna be quoting hot fuzz and it's gonna be fucking lame is all over again i'm not gonna have it he's gonna have to sit you're gonna sit in your

Maxshame like a college kid's buzzes is that the one with the camera pans back pans around 180 degrees something funny is happening and then it pans back and you see the guy's reaction? Or is that the one where he jumps over the fence and the fence falls down? That's the one where he jumps

Merlinover the fence with his cane. Pip, pip, governor. Fight the aliens then?

MaxWhat's all this then? And then he attacks the zombie with his spanking paddle. I think I've seen all these movies. They're fine. I don't remember them. They don't stand out.

AlexI'm going to put our friend Tony's video in here. If you're not, Max, and you're listening to this show, please watch it.

MaxYeah. Follow-up. Politico. President Donald Trump's daughter-in-law has taken up a pet issue, beagle adoption, that reflects her lifelong interest in animal welfare. One of Laura Trump's partners, however, is a little problematic. Eric Trump's wife is publicly aligned with a controversial animal rights group, the Beagle Freedom Project, whose leadership includes a felon who served a six-year sentence in federal prison for harassing and stalking researchers. Okay, just pause. First of all, I don't know anything about Eric Trump's wife, But like, first of all, okay, this is just like a rich, like, failed daughter.

And of her, her main political issue being Beagle adoption is the most Lindsay Bluth shit that I've ever heard in my entire life. Michael, we've got to save the wetlands and do what to them? Dry them, of course.

Eric's the vampire one, right? Yeah. Okay. He's the vampire one. He's the one that looks like Odo with an overbite.

AlexAnd he's the one where you said Eric Trump's wife. I was like, wait, what?

MaxMy father is a great man.

MerlinJust remember, you have to invite him in.

MaxMy father will keep America safe again. Quote, she really wants to be the first first family member that champions an animal issue, said Kevin Chase, the Beagle Freedom Project's head of operations. Usually it's military stuff, veterans, children, eating healthy. She's like, I want to finally be the voice of some animal stuff. Chase and five other activists from the now defunct group Stop Huntington Animal Cruelty faced prosecution because they posted online the names and home addresses of employees

and Huntington Life Sciences, which had a lab in the same New Jersey county where President Trump's bedministered golf course is located. They also, quote, applauded acts of extreme harassment, intimidation, vandalism, and violence. according to a 2006 news release from the prosecutor. Wait for it. Then U.S. attorney Chris Christie.

Chris Christie put fucking Jared Kushner's dad in jail, and he almost put the leader of Eric Trump's wife, Laura Trump's Beagle Rescue Project, in jail.

AlexSo we can make fun of the vampire and his Beagle wife, but not the crazy person tweet, even if it's a conspiracy theory.

MaxIt's not a crazy person tweet.

AlexIt's the worst conspiracy tweet ever.

MaxCan I show you? Go on my Twitter and look at this chart. I think it's the last thing I posted. And it's just a Google trend for, it's two lines. One of them is the blue line is the phrase Paris Agreement. And the red line is the phrase Cafefe.

AlexI mean, you could put that. Which one is bigger? Cafefe. but you could do the same thing with any other trending topic on Twitter. It's very upsetting. It's very, it's bad. It is not good.

MaxI'm not abstractly mad that people are mad about nonsense. There's a Paris agreement. My argument is that Trump actually did this because he knew that he had a rough news cycle. So he's like, what's some sort of trivia that I can create that people will like yammer on about that doesn't affect anything or anyone. And it sort of, it doesn't like it, Trump doesn't lose anything by people making fun of him for cafe.

MerlinLike Twitter is normally the place where a lot of his base, goes to get their opinion updated right I mean I don't I don't see you think you think this is you think this is gonna have any impact at all on his base no not even on people not at all no no I mean like you think anybody is sitting there going I wonder this will be the evening that I get a get an understanding

Maxof the Paris climate accords and no but I think listen I think Trump is a guy who sits around and watches the news a lot and he's very tuned in and sensitive to the fact of am I winning or losing the news cycle am I dominating or am I being dominated. And he doesn't want to sit there, regardless of what the real life sort of implications are or whether anyone's mind is going to be changed, he doesn't want to sit there and watch people on CNN complain about Jared Kushner and the climate agreement. So why don't you think, why wouldn't he do this earlier

Alexthough? Because he didn't have, like this isn't the worst. He did do this.

MaxHe continuously did this during the campaign. Remember when he made fun of Kazir Khan and he would do this like, he went after the Gold Star family and he did this after the same thing after, remember after Hillary?

MerlinNo, what you're describing is it was absolutely a trend. He would do, it was like his own version of Batman where instead of like throwing down a smoke screen, he'd just make a fart bomb and throw it across the room. Like everyone, please look over there. You know, he did it lots. I just don't think he did it.

MaxI don't think he did it this time. Hillary destroyed him in the first debate, right? And at the end, she got in this great attack line about that she called the former Miss Universe pageant or whatever, like Miss Piggy or whatever. Do you remember that whole scandal? And Trump very wisely realized that nobody gives a shit really about the Miss Universe stuff. That's not really going to affect people's votes. But he really didn't want to have a news cycle focused on how he lost the debate. So he went on Twitter and made a bunch of insults about Miss Universe and said, oh, it was a problem. She really did get fat.

Everyone took the bait and there was a whole news cycle about Miss Universe. And nobody got we didn't get one fucking day to talk about the fact that Hillary destroyed him in the debate.

AlexI agree with you. But I think in this case, it is Trump's razor, and it was just incompetence.

MaxAnd I... No way. It's the perfect typo, right? He didn't... If it was a real gaffe, if he really fucked up, what happened is he would have accidentally turned Siri on, and he would have been like, oh, despite whatever the negative media says, I really do want to fuck my daughter. And then we'd have a real scandal. But it was a perfectly manufactured cue to hit the buttons. That's not his style, though.

AlexWell, actually, he uses a Samsung phone. Anyway, turns out... No, not anymore.

MerlinThat's all done now.

AlexOh, oh.

Merlinhe's given out his iPhone number to the world leaders now. Now, the only thing is like, no, I think, I don't think that's how his mind works. His mind is not, I'm going to come up with something strange and neutral. He wants something that is going to burnish his brand with his base. Right? So when he's distracting people, what does burnish mean? Is that good or bad? I'm not sure.

MaxHe wants, he wants to make better. It's the thing I hear people say. Yeah,

Alexthis is something that that's a word, the verge with you.

MaxAre you Donald Trumping me right now? Are you trying to change the topic by kicking? Do you know when people say when they're here in a meeting and someone's like, we really need to flesh out this idea? Is it flush out or flesh out? It really does beg the question. I'm serious. Which one is it? Yeah, you're serious. Is it because you flush out birds from hiding?

MerlinBecause what he's doing is he is supplanting this one thing. Or is it flesh, like we need to add flesh to the bones? You're also making this more complicated than it needs to be. Alex is right. He is not actually thinking about he's not thinking about what is going to be practical. He's not thinking about what will work.

MaxHe's thinking about what will make him feel better. Trump likes to be in control of the news cycle and he does not like to be out of control of the news cycle. He likes to feel like he is in charge of the news cycle.

MerlinI think you're giving him too much. I don't think he even knows how to play 1D checkers. Like he he is just reacting to what's on his mind right now.

MaxOh, my God. This isn't that brilliant of a ploy. He like like brand like fucking Cheetos does this. I'm serious. Like they don't think he's I don't think he's thinking that far. That's why I think this is a gaffe.

MerlinI think if you want to do it, he would have he would have done of done a Miss Universe.

MaxDid you see what he tweeted this morning?

MerlinYeah, he did a Huckabee. He did like an AI generated like joke. This is my attempt at human humor. I mean humor.

MaxRight. He made he made 20 tweets that were all very provocative and will get everyone talking about whatever crazy shit he did. So he did more sort of like throwing sand in the eyes of the media tweets. Right. he's talking about he fucking tweeted about Kathy Griffin this morning right so he's just like literally just like muddying the waters trying so he's chumming chumming he's chumming he's doing anything he can to create trivia for people to talk about that's not Jared Kushner that's not now that I believe that I believe but so why is it so far he also here's what he where's not his style he says who can figure out the true meaning of confefe enjoy he's fucking he's smiling he's

Merlinwinking at you he did it on purpose no he does not he does not want to be perceived as an incompetent aging dingaling, which is what he looks like in that case.

MaxHe wants to look like greater Washington exposure on the issue. Laura Trump said that she's been nudging Vice President Mike Pence to adopt a rescue dog. Quote, I'm working as hard as I can to get a rescue dog into the White House, Laura Trump added. It would be a dream. Oh, that would be nice.

AlexWow, this is a long 60 seconds.

MaxThe timer ended. Merlin's in clear violation of the Geneva Convention on Kefefe. You know, I'm so sorry, you guys. You're playing right into his hands. Follow up, Washington Post.

Speaker BOh, no.

MaxWhat all the pins that Sheriff Clark wears actually mean.

Speaker BOh, shit dog.

MaxI guess we probably have to explain this, but Sheriff Clark is the, he's the, so he's from Milwaukee. He's a sheriff from Milwaukee.

MerlinEven though he looks like he's from a movie from 1992. too yeah but he's like he's like the racist sheriff basically is his sort of brand but what's the

Maxturns out max the turns out is he's black it's totally black but um he's the guy who there's been all these lawsuits because these people have died of thirst in the jails that he runs so the sheriff of milwaukee doesn't really have a lot of responsibility like the sheriff i believe from from what i've heard the sheriff of milwaukee his job is to like maintain the like highways and the like airport area and to just run the jails the county jails or whatever and that's like pretty much all he has to do and a bunch of people died of thirst in his jails so you know he's not

good at his job but he also he dresses like a fucking cowboy like a military he dresses like

Merlina cross between general patten and a morton joe he's got all of he's got all of these ribbons and pins but every time you see him you go do not become addicted to water because you're in my sell now, asshole.

He's got all of this like, what do you call it? Like egg salad, whatever it's called. He's got all of these ribbons and pins. And of course, the entire time, this is what great journalism is. Everybody's looking and going, why does he need all of those? Like, why does he need all the stars

Maxand all the pins? Police officers can get stripes. Like a sheriff gets like a rank and wears stripes on his shoulder, but you don't wear a bunch of like fucking Kim Jong-un like a more pattern of, you know,

Merlinenamel pins. Ultimately, the important and sad thing is that this is a further example of the militarization of urban police, right? It's more of this sense of like, this has been happening for 30 years and has really picked up in the last 15 years, where cops are just as a matter of course, at least dressing like SWAT officers, but really like riot police, essentially. But without any of the training. Without any of the training.

MaxOr regulation or oversight or hierarchy.

MerlinPrecisely so. And so, you know, what a great sign it is when somebody shows up who's basically, you know, ordinarily, even a cop, you usually have like the chevrons or the stars or the whatever to represent what your rank is. And then at least I think this is in the military and the police. And then depending on the department or whatever the jurisdiction, you'll get like a slash on your lower sleeve that I think represents every like five years of service. But they're all there for a reason. Those make it clear who you need to listen to in this situation.

I've got these stripes that show you I outrank you, and I got these little slashes down here that say, this is why you can trust me. I've done this a long time. And everything else is really understandably – it's ritualistic. It's important. It's symbolic. So was it Philip Bump who did this?

MaxYeah, I think it was – I think that's right. I think it was Philip Bump wrote this piece. So – well, there was like a thread on Twitter going around of a guy who was in the military who was like, you know, I think a lot of people look at the racist sheriff and they're like, oh, this guy must be really powerful. and important because he's got all these medals on his jacket. He must have been a decorated Marine. Yeah, right. It's like, oh, this guy must have a lot of authority. But actually, like you should know, like someone in the military who knows what all that stuff means and how to interpret it, he's basically just wearing enamel pins like you get at a tech conference. Like he's just, none of them, like he just has his little pin collection

pinned on him. Is he stealing valor? No, it's different because he's not claiming to have things he doesn't. But he is portraying a false authority of looking. he looks to me like i'm an i'm a fucking you know i'm just a rube right i'm i'm like a dope civilian like i i just i'll believe anything if anyone has some shiny in their vest i assume that there's some sort of educated authority figure he's more of like a fake

Merlingeek girl he's like he's more like somebody who goes to disney world and buys lots of pins for rides they haven't been on this one represents i was in the clean plate club i'm a big boy and wasn't one of them from like israel there i think they're mostly we should get to mr bump's article also very uh entertaining follow with a really cute kid he posts pictures of but uh he but he a lot of these are just commemorative or just like like you know like like uh i went to this i went to this seminar it's like wearing certificates of completion yeah yeah well here

Maxi'll pull out some of my favorites to read so uh there's basically a diagram of like his uh stupid uh a cowboy public overcoat and his hat and everything and the little lines and numbers coming off pointing at all the pills. He wears like Western style everything. Like a duster. He wears fucking cowboy boots. Yeah, but he's in Milwaukee again. All right, not a horse in Milwaukee. All right, number nine. This appears to be a small lapel pin that says WTC, a reference to the attacks at the World Trade Center.

Pins similar to this were given out to New York Police Department officers who helped in the aftermath of the attacks. Now, keep in mind, Sheriff David Clark, the racist sheriff, did not actually help out after the attacks at the World Trade Center. He just wears the pins that they gave out.

MerlinAlex, you know what that sounds like to me?

MaxNo.

MerlinA little bit of stolen valor.

MaxWho was your superior officer? Number 21, a pin depicting a baby's feet. Quote, the precious feet, signifying support for the anti-abortion movement. You know, really good, normal, cool stuff for a police officer to wear. He needs that for his work.

MerlinHe needs that for his work, Max.

MaxA lot of times I get pulled over for a cop and he goes, oh you know you weren't allowed to pull out of the parking spot going into the other lane like that and I go yep I know sorry and then I have to look at his uniform and I'm like where does this guy stand on abortion though excuse me officer

Merlinyou just well you know it's like being a it's like being a Freemace and you just kind of lean in and you go

Maxprecious feet am I being detained also what's your position on abortion

Alexwell follow up from last week the the little fetus erasers were called the precious ones

Maxis that what probably the same organization yeah pin wouldn't it be funny if instead of the enamel pins he had a bunch of the tiny rubber baby pencil erasers pinned to his jacket that'd be a very different look i was awarded this baby on the beaches of normandy number six a pin for the israeli civil guard a branch of the israeli police that serves as a sort of neighborhood watch since terrorist attacks in the mid-1970s. It's like Israeli next door. Yeah. Clark has worn a badge for the Israeli traffic police. Again, not a thing he's a part of.

AlexThey're not even funny or more. They're just baffling.

MaxNumber three, a five-pointed star inside of a circle. Existing theories are that this is from the U.S. Marshals or the Texas Rangers. That's just flat out misleading. It's a commemorative. He also has a commemorative like Secret Service pin. and as a matter of fact, I have that exact pin and the reason is when I was in school, we had this game, Humans vs. Zombies. It was this huge game of tag, campus-wide game of tag and like half the school played so it was like 600, 700 kids playing and there was one day when we had, and I wish I remember who,

we had an ambassador, like an ambassador of the US came to the school to give a talk and the ambassador had Secret Service protection. Oh no, it might have been Senator Murkowski. I don't know. It was some public official, an ambassador, a senator, or someone who came to speak, and they had Secret Service protection with them. And the day before the talk, the Secret Service came to scout the school out and figure out, okay, what's the methods of ingress and egress, and how will we get out if there's an emergency, and what's the venue look like, and what security do we need, and et cetera, et cetera. And they were very concerned because when they looked out,

there were all these kids running around with Nerf guns, like, you know, just like playing grab ass all over the school. And they were like, this is going to be very bad if there's like armed Secret Service officers who are trained to look for like a disturbance. Like we do not want kids running around with Nerf guns. So we basically made a plan where we like wrote into the story of humans versus zombies that there was like, everyone needed to stop playing for a few hours. And we suspended the game and like worked with the Secret Service. And afterwards they were like, I was meeting with the head of the secret service detail or whatever. And afterwards he was like, thank you for organizing this, you know,

I appreciate the cooperation. And he's like, have a pin. And it was a little plastic wrapped pin of the secret service logo, enamel pin.

Speaker BAnd, and,

Maxand it's like, you know, it's like when you're a kid and you go, if you get through the whole airplane ride without crying, how the, you get the sword will give you the wings.

Speaker BYeah.

MaxIt was basically like that, right. He gave me a trinket and he was like, thanks for, thanks for helping us out and not being a pain in our ass. You know, I appreciate it. Here's your pin. that's the same pin that sheriff clark wears from the secret service oh my god it's like it's like

Merlinthat guy who like keeps a ski pass you know on his jacket like oh oh my god let me tell you i got a

Maxum i got upgraded to priority on united like a couple flights ago and they put this orange sticker on your suitcase that says like priority boarding and let me tell you that sticker's not

Merlingoing anywhere oh right is this have a date or a stamp no it's just an orange sticker and it says

Maxunited priority and i'm telling you i i get in that priority lane and i just like breeze through security no one asks me any questions uh digga digga digga digga follow up the hill president trump chose to road ride in a golf cart while his foreign counterparts took a walk through taramina sicily on saturday during the group of seven summit the times of london reported the six other world leaders from britain canada france germany italy and japan walked 700 yards which is not very far, to take a group photo at a piazza in a hilltop town.

The U.S. leader decided to wait until he could get a golf court. Trump was late to the photo but joined the other world leaders during the walk down from the piazza.

MerlinThe human body is like a battery, Max. There's a finite amount of energy in the battery.

MaxYou don't want to use that up walking like a cuck.

MerlinBut the images of him, the images, oh. Mm-mm. you might need that to like change the channel or something that's energy that's energy the you know that energy it's it's displacement of energy right you you never get that back no i don't want

Maxto have i don't want to be one of these um you know sort of uh red string beautiful mind uh louise mensch like conspiracy theory uh nerds you know with up with my board of uh news that's all connected via, via, um, you know, my, my theories. Just photos and napkins. But that being said, follow up, CNN, Donald Trump is quote, emotionally withdrawing and gaining weight as the FBI investigation into possible collusion between his campaign and the Russian government creeps closer to the Oval Office.

AlexMerlin, would you like to read anything from your Twitter feed?

MerlinOkay, next door. Neighbor Ralph says, subject line, people running across your roof? Body. Seems to happen every few days between 10 and 11 a.m. I hear someone running across my roof. Unfortunately, I don't have quick roof access.

MaxWhat's his theory here? Like a fucking Ocean's Eleven network of cat burglars, and they run through the rooftops of some old city in Rome or something?

MerlinWell, he reached out to the right group because he has a lot of folks who are willing to jump in and help him out. Let me just finish this one. Unfortunately, I don't have quick roof access that would allow me to get a look at the persons. I live on the west side of Dingle and Dingle. Anyone else experiencing the same? Maybe it's just the raccoons and they've started wearing boots. I have reported this information to the police.

AlexSo shooed raccoons are terrorizing a street called Dingled and Dingled?

MerlinHe's at the corner of Dingle and Dingle. So here's Dingle Street and Dingle Ave. Now, here's some of the responses. Samantha says, I've seen raccoons on my roof. They hissed at me through our skylight. Linda offers, I have the same experience. It sounds like someone walking with their heavy boots. Listener Jeff opines, it's unlikely that raccoons are out between 10 to 11 a.m.

Speaker AThey're nocturnal creatures and should be resting by then.

MerlinListener Joanne says, we've had families of raccoons lately. Rhea says, My husband told me that in the past, maybe 30 to 40 years ago, a lot of burglaries happened this way. The thieves would come in through the center porch. We live on Dingle and Dingle. My husband's family has owned this house since it was built in the 30s. Be careful!

MaxExclamation point, exclamation point. I think that's the most, having heard all the different options, I mean, the raccoons are harmless. They're up there rolling their little acorns around trying to get the nut meat out. They just want that nut so much.

MerlinThey want the nut meat.

MaxBut I do think what's happening is that there's some sort of Italian job style chase happening. Possibly they're all driving minis filled with gold bars. And they're just jumping from rooftop to rooftop in like a daring action sequence.

MerlinI sent you a photo of PG&E, which is going to, for one month, is doing stuff in front of our house. I sent you guys a photo. Oh, I called PG&E.

MaxThey said there wasn't supposed to be anyone in the area.

MerlinThere wasn't supposed to be anyone. No, no. These 16 guys with four dump trucks and two bobcats, they're not supposed to be there.

MaxNo, Merlin, that's a classic crew, okay? You've got one guy, he's the demolitions guy. You've got another guy, he's your tech guy. The third guy, he's the mouth, right? He's going to be the fast talker. He's going to be the one to come and buttonhole you. What about the lady wearing the evening gown under the scuba suit? Is she included in this? Yeah, she comes swimming up the toilet. Listen, they're going to get your gold bullion, one way or the other.

Speaker AYou got the guy with the blow dart?

MaxUh-huh. They're getting into the garage and taking your cordless drill. They're going to get my cordless fucking... One way or another, they're fucking getting that cordless drill.

MerlinNow, if I knew that that was a family of hungry raccoons just trying to provide for their family, that would be so cute. You know what? I'm going to get this new nest cam. I'm going to put four of them down there. She's very sick.

Speaker BThat's all I got.

MaxI got other stuff. My father will make America strong again and feed the raccoons. I like my Eric Trump impression. I think it's very funny.

AlexHere's the thing, though.

MaxLet me tell you something about my father. We like to call him the blue-collar billionaire.

MerlinIt helps a lot if I imagine you in a suit that's one and a half sizes too large.

Speaker ALike the collar's got visible space, like a Spicer collar. My father is a great man. He has seen many boats. When he eats, all the food is gone.

MaxHe drank, he's a big man with big appetites. He drank all the water in the town.

Speaker AOne time, my father grew a beanstalk without beans, and everyone said it was nice and made photos. Every car my father has been in doubled in value.

AlexDo you think Melania is afraid of her stepsons? Like, I can't imagine her.

MaxHer two huge sons who know kung fu?

Alexlike I just imagine it being like Ma Melania

MaxMelania do you think they have like I don't I doubt they have much of a relationship

Alexoh I bet they think that she's hot and it's weird

Maxit's gay so hot his wife is in the eco-terrorist beagle salvation group and Melania shows up wearing her like beagle coat with their with their little eyes looking out at them it's a very chilly relationship Follow up, Boston Herald.

A popular strip club in Jacksonville, Florida has been closed until further notice after several dancers contracted diarrhea last Friday night. The cause of the incident, which remains under investigation, has been initially linked to a contaminated buffet at the venue. While the investigation continues, the venue has not been named. According to reports by local media, the strip club was nearly full on Friday night when the incident occurred, and both staff and customers were reported to have eaten from the free buffet, which included the usual selection of ribs, chicken, and deep-fried shrimp. While the results of the lab analysis are yet to come back,

one source familiar with the investigation told reporters that bad shrimp was the most likely case of the diarrhea. Quote, typically shrimp are involved in cases like this, particularly when they are not cleaned thoroughly. Patrons at the venue who were sitting near the stage were the most directly affected by the incident, which occurred close to 11 p.m. According to a witness at the venue, three dancers were performing on separate poles. Oh, it's a three pole venue. When the first signs of trouble emerged. Do you guys like where this is going?

AlexNo, but please continue.

MaxQuote, at first I picked up a bad smell. I thought maybe the guy next to me had farted, said the waitress, who declined to be named. however the smell got worse and i noticed that a lot of other guys were looking around to see what it was it was at this point that the first dancer to suffer from diarrhea was unable to control her bowels any longer and a stream of brown liquid soon gushed over the stage according to the witness quote it was absolutely disgusting he told journalists a number of guests immediately puked i personally ran for the exit i lost all interest in the show you know hang on because

Kudos to that guy. That's all interest in this show. That poor guy. He came in there with his hard-earned singles. I'm going to bet that there were two camps of patrons. There were those who lost interest in the show and those who did not lose interest in the show.

AlexI paid for this show. Here's a theory. What if there's just one guy who slips $300 to the bouncer and is like, I need something to happen on stage.

And then all the dancers get a kickback.

MerlinOh, you're saying he has a very, very specific set of desires.

AlexYeah, Eric Trump just goes in and is like, listen.

MaxMy father has a very particular need.

Speaker AThis is a real mustache I'm making with my finger so you don't know who I am. My father is a large man. Every time he's sat in a chair, it goes in a museum.

MaxThat's the thing with Eric Trump. He gets one smell of that fart. Oh, wait, wait, wait. Let me do it again. He gets one smell of that fart. The other dancers on stage also suffered from diarrhea soon after and were forced to abandon their performance. Quote, they had a hard time getting off the stage, said one witness who stayed to watch the aftermath of the incident.

Speaker AWere they slipping around in platform heels?

MaxHigh heels and diarrhea really don't mix.

Speaker BWas it like sympathy diarrhea?

MaxI think they all ate the shrimp, the contaminated shrimp. Some of the guests who had been enjoying the show also contracted diarrhea, and there was a rush on the men's room, which unfortunately did not have enough stalls to cope with the sudden influx and demand.

It burned. Cleaners who were hired to deal with the mess reportedly were shocked at the condition of the venue. quote strip clubs are generally dirty places but this was on a whole new level said one of the cleaning staff in my time i've seen feces in a urinal once or twice but never in the sinks in an effort to compensate customers for the incident the venue's management took to social media to offer free entry to any guests who had been at the club on friday night management also noted that the free buffet would not be available until further notice well good for them

you think this is true i'm i will i mean you i'll send over i'll put the link in show notes but i saw it in the boston herald so you think why you think i got um fucking borowitz reported

Merlinuh this fake news story about florida strippers getting diarrhea from tainted shrimp duped the

Maxinternet no why do you have to cuck me why can't i have one nice thing god damn it

Alexfuck oh that's disappointing edit that out that's disappointing no leave it in the story also goes

Merlinon to say that while lab analysis is still being waited on that could be a better sentence one source says a case of quote bad shrimp is to blame as he believes the shrimp wasn't properly clean and yes this story duped love can you blame it's florida what so i'll send it to you this is me right now.

This is me now. This is me now.

MaxFuck, fake news? It was in the Boston Herald.

MerlinYeah. They broke that story

Maxabout the priest. Oh, I'm going to cry. I'm so sad. I just wanted a little bit of magic in the world. I know, I know, I know. You asked for so little. All right, hang on. Your whole debunking story is from a website called crave.com.

I just Googled.

Merlinyou're saying the fake news is fake news

Alexoh this thing where there's a stock photo of a stripper and some gifs of people throwing up I can't imagine

Maxyeah they just say that it was a fake story that duped they don't have any like hang on I don't why do I trust a website called craveonline.com I'm just trying to

Merlinsave you if there is any chance that it is not true I'm trying to save you from you needing to look at a week of Twitter telling you that it's fake news over and over even though you've already said you know it's fake news.

AlexAlright, we've brought out the big guns. Oh, you shit dog! Literally.

MerlinOh no, Alex! Why'd you send this?

MaxSnopes.com, baby.

MerlinFuck!

AlexFalse?

MerlinI say leave it in.

AlexWait, it's not the Boston Herald, it's the Border Herald. you cucked yourself

Speaker Athat's the border herald and I didn't even bother to read it problematic oh no oh no

Maxso the border herald is not the website that broke the police abuse story I think we just recreated the film searchlight or spotlight or whatever

MerlinCan I be Hulk? Did Ariana Grande defile the American flag? Does cooking with aluminum foil put you at risk for Alzheimer's?

MaxDoes Sani products recall due to clear parasite? British man who took meow-mow party drugs stabs mother slices off own penis Where do I get some of this meow-mow? Listen, email Alex if you know where I can get meow meow.

MerlinI just don't want that to appear in a court document. I don't want, I just don't. Now, let me understand. You were going out and looking for some meow meow? What kind of a thing is that?

MaxIs that something a grown man would want to ask for?

Speaker AGet a meow meow.

MaxIt's probably Crocodile. Victim offered $50 voucher as compensation after a mix-up causes severe vagina injury.

MerlinAre you on Snopes? No, I'm on the Border Herald. Oh, I should check out the Border Herald. It's good.

MaxI like all these stories. They appeal to me. I want to click on them all. Canadian mom discovers the secret to a flat belly overnight. Oh, that's nice. Brazilian chef accidentally creates smoothies that wipe away fat. Can I ask you, do you ever look at the, on the bottom of a news article? Occasionally there's, there's these like, um, sort of, uh, recommended stories or like, you know, they're all sort of fake, like clickbait content at the bottom of like, like a CNN or like a real news website.

MerlinLike a tabula. You get a tabula outlink type situation, right?

MaxYeah. And sometimes my like ad blockers like don't get them. so they're still there. And it's the weirdest shit I've ever seen. The number one weird one.

MerlinIt's like a hot chick, some feet, a food, and like a hangnail.

MaxThe weirdest one is like, it says like, it's like a tiny thumbnail pictures, right? But there's like, it says like a bunch of like celebrities, like you won't believe what they look like now. And then it's a huge disembodied foot on a beach.

Speaker BHave you guys seen that one? Yeah.

MerlinI haven't seen that one, but I heard there's a formula for this. I don't know if this is true, But I've heard that there is a formula for how that gets decided based on a number of things. But there's got to be something with like – there's got to be some kind of scandal, some kind of a hot chick usually. Something like fixing your disgusting condition. And then usually something like, oh, enter your name here.

MaxYou're not going to believe the results. Every time I see that huge disembodied foot sitting on the beach.

Speaker Amy father could have extra feet if he chose to but because my father is a heptapod with the ability to change time with his thoughts

Maxmy father has enormous feet when we were growing up i always said dad someday i hope i have huge disembodied feet like you do.

Speaker AMy dad is exactly the height that he needs to be. My dad could be any height he chooses to be or low or high, but he's exactly the height that he needs to be right now.

AlexI'm just, now I'm just hearing him quoting the Godfather be like, there's no more attempts on my father's life.

Speaker AWhat I want is a dad that loves me.

Speaker BNo more attempts on my father's affection.

MerlinDo you want to talk? Do we want to skip the challenge or should we do it?

AlexOh, no. I'm fired up. I'm fired up. I, oh, this man.

MerlinOkay, good. Well, perfect. because I'm mainly here to ask questions. Dugga, dugga, dugga, dugga, challenge. This week the challenge is mine, and I wanted you to go out and read something by Ron Johnson, the Turns Out author. And I know that Alex has read some of his things. I believe Max has read some things. I've read some of his things. I've heard many interviews. I wanted to talk about Ron Johnson in particular and Turns Out literature and culture in super general.

Speaker BCan I, all right, let me ask you,

Maxlet me ask you, can you just first define some turns here? Like what is Turns Out? What distinguishes turns out literature from not turns out literature? Because I don't know that I necessarily agree that he firmly fits into the turns out.

MerlinMy definition of turns out literature has mainly two parts to it, because it's always two things with me. One is that this is some kind of a piece that addresses some conventional wisdom or something you're pretty sure that you know. And this piece shows you how almost everything you thought you knew about this topic is wrong. That's part one. And that's a common kind of thing. That's been around for years. It's journalism. It's whatever it is. But there's a special kind of turns out in the past 15 years where it's really about going like it's cocktail party chatter about some topic where you can well actually somebody by saying, well, actually, you know, it's actually the opposite of that.

The best way to cook corn is to use mercury or whatever. So that's part one. Part two, for it to be a true turns out, you probably have fuck all to do with actually having discovered whatever is being claimed in that turns out. So you've got some kind of a, let's say you've got some kind of thing on fucking NPR. And like you are, that person is basically reading something that they heard in a press release. And the press release came from a university and the university had this research, right? So the two parts are it should be something that's everything you know is wrong.

And second, it's usually being reported by a very talented writer, which makes it very compelling. And you never stop to really delve into the turns outiness of the turns out. Does that make sense? Yes.

AlexThose that definition makes sense, but it feels like it doesn't apply to Ron Johnson, John Ronson.

MaxI think he's written some. I think I think some of his stuff is turns out and some of it's not turns out. I think some of it is just good writing.

MerlinI think that's one part of Turns Out, though, is I definitely felt this with Malcolm Gladwell. I was one of the many, many people who was very intoxicated by the writing of Malcolm Gladwell, you know, before his books and then when his books did come out.

And it wasn't until his writing, because he's always in all of these guys and gals. They're all very, and they're mostly guys, are very entertaining writers. That's the thing. And when you're reading someone who's very entertaining, you're less likely to go, hmm, let me really think about that for a minute. Or let me go really – at least go read the abstract.

MaxLet me give you a – let me give you a – let me throw a wrench in the theory here. Michael Lewis. Which one is he? Moneyball. Oh, right. Flash Boys. I would not count him as a turns out guy. Well, he's clearly not a turns out guy because he actually takes extremely, I would say, boring technical subjects that are important, but extraordinarily hard to understand. So like The Big Short is probably the best example. And he is he's I mean, he might be my favorite sort of narrative nonfiction writer.

Like he's like the best of anyone at the genre. His topics end up being so diverse. But he also like truly explains, gets into the minutia and explains it. And it's usually not surprising. Like the premise of Moneyball is not everything you know is wrong. It's that you already know that the Boston Red Sox won. So let's go like look at what happened here.

AlexRight. He's like the anti, it turns out, because he doesn't.

MaxWell, no, because he does the thing that Merlin was talking about, which is he's very entertaining. There's always a colorful character. It's funny. It's surprising.

MerlinIt's a page turner. It's not all bad. I mean, that's why I wanted to talk about my very conflicted feelings about turns out writing. Because my entire life, I've loved that. I've loved like, you know, go read like, oh, what was that reference book when I was a kid? Like Famous First and stuff like that. And it's the equivalent of going and reading Wikipedia or even Snopes. Snopes is the ultimate, turns out, because you get to say to somebody, actually, that cookie recipe was never that didn't happen that way. The part about this that I'm struggling with is the – so something that I feel like happens with a lot of these guys.

And it turns out guys in general. And who are turns out people? Famously Malcolm Gladwell. Famously Jonah Lehrer. who are some other people turns out on joan allaire i mean it turns out everything that you thought you learned from joan allaire it's like a quadruple at this point but it's a little bit of the thomas friedmanization of non-fiction where you start with an interesting anecdote and a fact and then you build in concentric circles around that so i was on my way to davos

Maxand i turned to my cab driver and i said uh what are you listening to on the radio for news nowadays

Merlinand he said the most interesting thing yeah and so you know who else to a certain extent uh who's guns, germs, there's Jared Diamond a little bit. You've got Stephen Berlin Johnson, Stephen Berlin Johnson a little bit. And again, I'm not saying these are good, bad, or indifferent. I'm saying that their stock in trade is putting out, and certainly the grand prince of meta turns out, the hidden brain guy on NPR, who now has the entire podcast reporting on other turns out stories. And that's his whole deal, all about who is the hidden brain and behavioral economics. Oh, of course, freakonomics to some extent, although I think they're actually quite good at it.

Um, but in all of these, like there's always, I guess what I'm trying to get at in terms of this, our, our jokey fake news attitude is like, I think it's interesting to become so intoxicated by somebody's writing that you stop asking even obvious questions about what they're saying because they're so entertaining. And I'm just wondering, I guess in just in general, like we could talk about Ron Johnson, we could talk about any of these folks, but like, what is your relationship to this kind of, I mean, is it, is it a guilty pleasure for you? Like it is for me to read this kind of stuff.

AlexI mean I read the tipping point when I was in like eighth grade so I don't think my brain was there like like this is a book I shouldn't question anything in this like books are books are real and smart um and it was a bit of a guilty pleasure but like to defend Michael Lewis I don't know why like his face is just nice and pretty and seems wise um it like every time he says something in Moneyball I was like wait what and then he delves into why that is the thing that actually happened with uh with john ronson like it's not so much turn it's like a turns out about his feelings

like oh i guess my feelings were wrong or he still is completely wrong about something and says irresponsible things about uh people and it fucks up their lives and i don't like him more

Merlinlike maybe like a justin theroux kind of thing right more like the like travel log sort of like you know bringing the crazy world to you that's john uh his name is actually john ronson uh a lot of what he does, and I think this is part of his brand, is that he goes to the edges of society. He visits with very extreme people and then kind of brings that back together without taking off the edges, able to go in and show you this world that you may not be aware of. Isn't that kind of

Alexhis deal in general? I mean, well, but that's the thing. It's not actually, like, people are like, ah, he's this gonzo journalist. He's sitting in an airport with his subject and, like, decides to get into the minutiae of what they're eating. And it's, I don't know, like, I thought he was entertaining for a while. I do really like The Elephant in the Room, which is his, like, basically explains his history with Alex Jones and how he came to power and came to power,

MerlinJesus Christ. You guys recommended that to me, and I read it, it's very short, but I read it in like a day and a half. And it, it really, it sparkles like, I want to say like a Tom Wolf essay, like a new journalism, like, you know, Hunter S Thompson kind of a vibe.

AlexWell, it was actually good.

MerlinHe's really there, right? Yeah. Somewhere between new journalism and Gonzo. I mean, I think there is a distinction, but the idea of putting himself in the center of it. And really the funny part also though, is that it's kind of a followup to his previous work, right? Because he had this whole book that was based on this experience, going to the Bohemian Grove with Alex Jones, et cetera. But I thought it was a great length. It was well done. And I was flipping my Kindle hard the entire time. I thought it was very entertaining.

MaxI also love, so the way I became aware of John Ronson's work was he's a frequent contributor to This American Life. And his stories for This American Life are some of the best they've ever done. He has one about habeas corpus that's really funny. He has one of the poultry slam stories He's about like a turkey that's really good. He has one in the first contact episode about these people who submit messages to send to aliens. It's, I don't know.

AlexWell, I, okay. He's great. I think his short stories and short essays are entertaining because you can tell like these are feelings and not facts. Whereas with the psychopath test, like so much of this is he's presenting these people as experts. And like, if you go back, I went back and reread it and it's sort of like winking like an expert, but at some points you don't know. And he goes on these tangents that are just really, they feel weird and irresponsible and gross about how, I don't know.

Maybe it's my own personal hangup about like diagnosing people as sociopaths that clearly are just weird and misunderstood. I don't know. I'm mostly mad about the psychopath test, and so you've been publicly shamed.

MerlinYeah, hearing his interviews about that really put me off my beer, mainly just because I'm not going to say I had any particular schadenfreude, strictly speaking, about the Jonah Lehrer thing. What I will say is that of all the turns out people, long before that scandal, he always bugged me more than all of the others maybe combined. So, I mean, I don't want to pillory this person in the way that John Ronson thinks everybody does. but at the same time like there was so much about what he did that just felt it felt like a bridge too far i think there are times when malcolm gladwell very much feels like he went a little

far too but with with jonah lehra in particular and i you know what i didn't do a huge amount of research for this to be dead honest i mainly want to just talk about this book and what you guys thought about it but i remember thinking like man this guy is a machine he is just pumping out so much turns out and it was really heavy on the turns out really heavy on the like boy you have no idea how different this is from what you thought. And it just got me to where now increasingly I still love stuff like that, but I'm always like, yeah, but like, I wish I knew enough. I wish I was a Veronica. I wish I could go and like look at, you know, I will look at abstracts for things,

but I don't have a way to go in and look at methodologies for things. But I am aware of things like the file drawer effect. I'm aware of these kinds of things. Now, maybe I'm going to my own turns out territory. It turns out that a huge amount of stuff out there is incredibly flawed.

MaxListen, I give people this advice all the time, which is if you see a surprising study or someone's posting about something, you read it on Facebook, and it's like some sort of like university press release or, you know, a journal abstract or like some blog post of like this incredible discovery of how this or that works. Like there's one going around this week that like scientists had figured out they could power 70% of the Earth's energy in places where salt water, where fresh water flows into salt water and there's like a salinity change and they figured out some way to harvest the energy.

You know, usually the way that this kind of societal and technological change happens is we have small steps, right? So first you hear about it, and then it gets better over several decades, and then it gets affordable, and then we can actually put it into practice. And it's like, it's usually something like, hey, electric cars, how long have we been talking about that? Now they're sort of like on the market or drones or hoverboards. Like whatever you want to think of as like some futuristic link. We've been thinking about all that shit from the 80s. You know, the same thing with medicine, you know, like an AIDS vaccine. Like, how long have we been hearing about that? And we're just starting to kind of get it together after many, many, many decades and scientists and millions of dollars and lab groups, like, trying all the things that don't work and gradually one inch at a time spending their whole career advancing this thing, like, one inch, one inch, one inch, one inch.

You know, it's rare. I actually can't really point to a time where we've had like a world changing energy technology that supplied 70 percent of the world's energy where you went from never hearing about it to revolutionizing the world after like one, you know, scientific abstract article in Nature.

MerlinThat's so interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

MaxTypically, there is a catch where when you hear about one of these surprising stories, there's like a reason it's not going to have the effect that you may think that it will have. In the example of the saltwater thing, it turns out to be insanely, preposterously, impossibly expensive. It was very, very, very expensive to do. So we could do it to provide up to 70% of the Earth's electricity. However, we never will because it is so much more expensive than solar and coal and every other kind of energy. If you want to find out the sad turns out of like, okay, here's all the actual problems with this, I know this is probably pretty controversial, but I highly recommend go on Reddit, look up the thread, use the search, find the main discussion thread of where this article is being talked about.

And usually the top comment will be a scientist in the field or someone with knowledge of the subject explaining why the study is like over, why you should take it with a grain of salt. the top comment is usually where the truth is on a science article and on reddit and like like credit where credit is due like there are actual scientists who spend their time on reddit like reply you know doctors and whatever chemists explaining why this stuff is a little bit

Alexsuspect when it comes up and they're they source their work like crazy i've gone down the reddit

Maxuh rabbit hole and it's check out i know people hate reddit but or whatever but go on there's good the thing with reddit is like if you just go on without an account like you're fucked it's very bad it's very low quality there's a lot of like men complaining about how uh simultaneously complaining about how women don't like it's like simultaneously complaining that women don't like video games and then also complaining that they're ruining them by liking them too much so but here's what you have to do you have make an account unsubscribe from almost all the default subreddits and then add the stuff that's like more niche that you're interested in so like

some of the reddits i really like there's one that's like ask physics ask chemistry like ask whatever field. There's an Ask Philosophy that's pretty good. And you can just hear lay people who have a question and they're like, I've always been curious how this chemistry thing works. And like a bunch of chemists come in and post answers and the best ones float up to the top. That's cool. That's really cool. And you can tell they're chemists because the moderators of that subreddit verify the people who are qualified to give answers. So they have like a little

Alexflare next to their name. I've got a hot take. You just need to think of Reddit as the internet in that if you're a woman, most of it's going to be bad and terrible, but you just need to go to the parts, like Mac said, that are interesting. Like you can't expect to jump on the internet and be like, oh wow, this is great. But man, it feels like, oh, I can't believe I'm saying this about Reddit, but it's fun and nice. And if you go to the right places, there are nice considerate people

who like think through what they are saying. and the ones who are dummies, like they get voted to the bottom. And it's just, sometimes it's just a nice place. Also, there are cats jumping into boxes.

MerlinCan I mention something that's not Reddit related?

AlexI guess.

MerlinIf you must. There's an article from November 2010. I'm pretty positive I've mentioned either here or on the Top Chef show called Lies, Damned Lies, and Medical Science. And it's a wonderful story about Dr. John Ionotis. who is a guy at Stanford that leads a team of people that do meta research. And I know we've talked about it before. I won't go on about it, but I've added the show notes. It's a terrific whistle-stop tour of all the different ways

that pretty much all research has problems. And it's hard to even know which kind of the problems to address first and when you're looking at it. But that's all him and his group do is they just look at other people's research and look at from the very beginning, from the conception, through the entire implementation, whatever they do to the way it's reported to every graph, there are so many problems with so many of these kinds of things. I only mention that here because I think that is a, and I don't know, maybe I'm cherry picking, but I've heard stories like this a lot, that there are, that things like the turns out culture are leading more and more to the need to have interesting things to happen.

It's not about going out and replicating somebody's really boring experiment. It's about having an amazing result that's going to get you on fresh air, I think is probably kind of the idea. So I just wanted to toss that out. I think this stuff, that stuff is super interesting. And also I would love to hear what your thoughts on the Sullivan generator. If you really want to create energy and gold, you're going to want to get a Sullivan generator.

AlexI feel like we haven't really put, or I have not put the Ron Johnson, John Ronson stuff in context. The two books that I read of his, The Psychopath Test, one is just him. He treats it like it's research. like his weird, boring gonzo journalism in this book, he's like, oh, this is like a scientific thing because I talked to scientists and I talked to doctors. And it's just this weird, long, rambling adventure of people who may or not be mentally ill.

But the, God, I've even forgot what it's called. So You've Been Publicly Shamed is him just talking to people who have trended on Twitter, basically. Jonah Lehrer.

MerlinBut also, but didn't that spring straight out of the Jonah Lehrer? And the interviews I heard with him that I found frustrating was how much he was so aggrieved that his very good friend, Jonah Lehrer, had been treated so badly by all the meanies on the internet.

AlexOh, God. And yes, but then he goes, he's like, well, I'll talk to these, a lot of women on Twitter who have been shamed. And he's like, why is this happening? And it doesn't happen to like Mike Daisy or people forget about them. It's because they're women, like, of course. And he's like, I haven't gotten any death threats. No shit, no one's calling you a cunt. No, really, what? Oh, turns out. All right. I think that's it.

MerlinI'm also adding in that if you do want a book about the Internet and crowds, I have not read this in a few years, but it's one of my – the wonderful Clay Shirky put out a book in 2009 called Here Comes Everybody, The Power of Organizing Without Organizations. And that – now Clay, he's a pretty smart cookie. And I just thought it was a very interesting take on the – I was about to say the benefits and drawbacks of mobs on the Internet. But it's really much more than that. It's really more about like what is afforded by everybody having access to everybody. And he does this. I mean, if you want to call Clay turns out journalism, I'm OK with that. But he's good at it. He is a very he's a very thoughtful writer. He's a very he's a very sound thinker. Some of his talks that I've seen are some of my favorite talks. Check out Here Comes Everybody, The Power of Organizing Without Organizations.

MaxHis thing about the death of newspapers is like one of the best things that's ever been written on the Internet.

MerlinYeah, that was amazing. I've got stuff of his I just keep around. I was at the O'Reilly Emerging Tech Conference and saw him do—I hope this is not fake news. I believe I'm remembering this correctly. I was there when he first did his talk about the power curve, the power distribution curve, especially with regard to LiveJournal. and like some of the earliest stuff I'd seen of people showing the disproportionate distribution of followers and you know your audience across the spectrum he's just a really really smart guy a really really

Maxquick thinker. Newspapers and Thinking the Unthinkable by Clay Shirky. We'll put that in the show

Alexnotes. I really expected Max to read it and I was bracing myself. Okay well turns out

MaxJohn Ronson not that bad or he is that bad I wasn't paying attention. Yeah.

AlexTurns out Alex really doesn't like him. His face is so stupid. Have you heard about This American Life? Yeah. You don't like him? Well, I said, when his stuff is short, like the elephant in the room, and it's very clearly like, these are feelings and not facts, I find him enjoyable. It would be like if people...

Oh, God. What's his name? Shit. Robocop? David.

MerlinVincent D'Onofrio.

AlexGay guy with the great voice.

MerlinThat always is who I'm picking up.

MaxAdelaide Stevenson. That 100% it is Vincent D'Onofrio.

AlexOh, no, no, no. Why? I've read every one of his books.

MaxHe played the president in Independence Day.

AlexOh, Paul Wynn. Fuck. Oh, David Sedaris. Okay, there we go. i saw him on the colbert the other day he i enjoy him quite a bit but he looks better than he's ever looked i love that guy oh good good remember when he peed in a bag that was fun i just his quote

Merlinfrom again back from the santolan diaries when he's just a quote i think about all the time and i think i've quoted it in our text channel um i i'm immune to compliments i lie for a living that is such a good uh what was i gonna say about something with antaclay shirky back to you know what's good you know what's really good to hear the lamentations of their women no you know what's good is salt the field so that nothing may grow again you know what's good is the uh this american life where they go to the car dealership i think that is one of the

Maxgreat things oh yeah sure okay that's a good one it's so amazing there's so much this american in life contributor of all time all time number one all-timer slash you could go with your favorite story i guess but i don't know i don't know contributor i mean i like starly kind a lot

Merlini'm trying to think starly kind is my number two draft pick um i'm see i'm spacing right now i feel like i'm on the spot i'm trying to think of who all i i mean hodgeman stuff was always amusing but Alex?

AlexI'm trying to think.

MerlinCharlie Cotton really had an ear.

AlexThe thing is, I really liked Adam Bloomberg.

MaxYeah, he's an incredible... Is he Planet Money guy?

AlexYeah. Oh, well, now he's...

MaxPreviously, he was at This American Life. He did the story, I believe he was on the testosterone episode and kind of did that. Oh, shit, dog.

MerlinHe was on the How This Happened episode. The best This American Life ever.

MaxThe two-parter.

MerlinThe beginning of Planet Money.

MaxYes, that's right.

MerlinIt began with, we're going to explain to you in one hour. I remember Ira had a really, really, really bad cold. We're going to explain what happened with the financial crisis in one hour. And I walked away like my brain was brimming with stuff that now seemed less impossible to understand. It was brilliant.

MaxYeah, very, very, very good. For me, my number one all-time This American Life contributor, Jack Hit. If there's a Jack Hit story, ooh, buckle up.

MerlinI don't know who that is.

MaxYeah, neither do I. Oh, my God. All right, hang on. Jack Hit. He's an incredible writer, too. Hit with two Ts. Yes. Let me tell you some stories to listen to just to get acquainted with Jack Kitt on This American Life.

MerlinI've got the app, but do they lock up their archives? I think they do, don't they? I think of the app, but not online.

MaxPay for the stupid app.

MerlinI've got their stupid app. I bought their stupid app, you stupid face. My father has never had to buy an app because he can make them with the X code of his mind. I've lost it. Do it again. I forgot how to do it. How do you do it? My father.

Speaker AMy father. My father.

MaxOh, yes, here we go. Episode 253, The Middle of Nowhere, Act 1, No Island is an Island by Jack Hitt. This is one of the all-time greatest stories I have ever heard in any medium. It's about this island, Nauru.

It's insane. In fact, I had a meeting years and years ago with a bunch of immigration policy people and Homeland Security. And it's one of those scenarios where I sort of could have one thing that I wanted to talk to them about. And this was the thing I picked because I was like, have you guys heard of this? And they hadn't. And I was like, you should probably be aware of this refugee situation.

MerlinHmm. Jack, put that in notes. I put in the episode called 355, The Giant Pool of Money.

MaxYeah. That's a classic. Man, everything Jack Hitt has done on This American Life, those are all my favorite stories.

MerlinHere's another one. Did you ever listen to When Patents Attack?

AlexYes.

MerlinYeah, that was very good.

AlexI really like Elise Spiegel. I don't know. Was Lulu Miller ever an actual correspondent? I'm not sure.

MaxI think she was a producer. I don't know if she was a voice on the show.

AlexYeah. Well, they're the people who did Invisibilia. Turns out. Yeah, yeah.

MerlinTurns out. See, now what's funny is, here's the triple turns out, is like Freakonomics, I used to roll my eyes. You know, all that, like, it's just more of this whole, like, you know, here's how hush puppies got popular. Fuck you.

MaxTurns out when you release more prisoners out of prison, the price of cornflakes goes down. It's Freakonomics. Bum, bum, bum.

Speaker ABum, bum, bum. Whoa. theo!

28. The Corner of Dingle and Dingle 0:00 / 01:14:32