25. The Milky Boys
2017Show notes
The challenge: watch The Social Network.
- Alex Jones’s Media Empire Is a Machine Built to Sell Snake-Oil Diet Supplements
- Episode 06: Charlie Warzel discusses shocking weed revelations from Alex Jones’ custody hearings — Stoner — Overcast
- Caveman True Paleo Formula
- Ristretto - Wikipedia
- David Fincher - And the Other Way is Wrong - YouTube
- Real life 'blue man' Paul Karason dies aged 62; turned blue after drinking colloidal silver ... - WorldNews
- SMALT-The smart home device that elevates your dining experience
- Why Every Home Should Have Centerpieces — SMALT-The smart home device that elevates your dining experience
- After Trump fired Comey, White House staff scrambled to explain why
- The Social Network (2010) - IMDb
Transcript
Tap a timestamp or any sentence to play from there · machine transcribed (mlx:mlx-community/whisper-large-v3-turbo), expect mistakesAlexThis is Do By Friday, the weekly challenge podcast with Merlin Mann, Alex Cox and Max Temkin. This week's challenge, watch the social network.
Max's assistant, Kara, has just come in.
MerlinOh, please be coffee. Please be coffee.
AlexOh, there's a, I think it's coffee. Is this coffee? Yeah, well, it's every hot drink on the menu. Oh, oh my.
MerlinWhat's happening?
AlexThere's a lot, there's a lot of coffee happening. Kara, do you want to get on mic too? I'm going to see what's happening.
MerlinOh, it's been a while since we've had a Kara visit.
Speaker AI know. Hello.
MerlinHi, Kara.
Speaker AHi, Merlin. How's it going?
MerlinOh, it's going all right. How are you?
Speaker AGood. Max told me this was a podcast related errand, but he had me go to the new coffee shop down the street, werewolf coffee and get one of every hot drink on the menu so i just came in with car does that
Merlinchange the nature of how you execute your work if you know that it's podcast related does that
Speaker Aescalate it in your view um you know not really i just know when it needs to be done by and i don't
Merlinso he didn't he didn't i just i need to voir dire him on this when he when he deigns to show up he um he did not the one who went in and had to do the ordering process he turned that to you
Speaker AYeah, just one of everything. I mean, it was a simple task, sort of, but am I staying?
MerlinHi, Merlin. I was just telling Alex I finally figured out why we don't have a photo, why we can't find a photo of Gary. And it's been in front of me the whole time. It's so obvious. It's because Gary has concerns about his privacy. Anything, you'd have to go to DeviantArt and find what's called fan art of Gary. So I would just say to Cox's Cucks, to Powder Nation, if you wanted to do a rendering of Gary, the privacy concern clown, and share it with us on your DeviantArt site, I would be totally fine with that.
Maybe he could be having intercourse with the Sailor Moon, whatever that is.
AlexNo! No!
MaxTuesday, May 9th, White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer wrapped up his brief interview with Fox Business from the White House grounds late Tuesday night and then disappeared into the shadows, huddling with his staff behind a tall hedge. To get back to his office, Spicer would have to pass a swarm of reporters wanting to know why President Trump suddenly decided to fire the FBI director. After Spicer spent several minutes hidden in the bushes behind these sets, Janet Montessi, an executive assistant to the press office, emerged and told reporters that Spicer would answer some questions as long as he was not filmed doing so.
Spicer then emerged. Quote, just turn the lights off. Turn the lights off, he ordered. We'll take care of this. Can you just turn the lights off? Spicer got his wish and was soon standing in near darkness between two tall scrubs with more than a dozen reporters closely gathered around him. For 10 minutes, he responded to a flurry of questions vacillating between lighthearted asides and clear frustration with getting the same questions over and over again. I have so many theories about this. Number one. I think the tweet speaks for itself.
Number one. Is Sean Spicer Gary the privacy concern clown? Is that why he's not coming out? Shit dog.
AlexWell, I don't think so because he does have two Twitter accounts where he retweets himself on both accounts. So I don't know. Maybe one of his minions. God, the poor man. Oh, not the poor man. No, no, no, no.
MaxWell, okay, let me throw this out.
AlexI can't be empathetic with John Spicer.
MaxI have one other theory about this, which is, okay, we've established, it's part of the canon of Dubai Friday, that Sean Spicer, he chews and then swallows an enormous amount of cinnamon gum, right? And we've basically hypothesized that he's more gum than man. You know, a lot of gum is coming in and I don't think it's coming out. Is that why he doesn't like the lights?
MerlinAt a certain point that adds a lot of flexibility, but then it becomes structurally unsound.
MaxRight, you can go, see, where you want to stop is where your miss is incredible, right? Because if you keep going and you keep chewing gum, you just melt, you have no bone structure.
MerlinIt's not actually, I think in the literature they'll tell you, it's not actually that far from got better at yoga to can't sit in big boy chair.
AlexOh.
MerlinRight?
MaxBecause you don't have the infrastructure. I heard that Sean Spicer had one rib removed so that he could chew his own gum.
AlexHis doctor said it was perfectly fine.
MaxOkay, but listen, do you guys think, do you see where I'm going with this? Because he was very concerned with having the lights on him. Do you think that maybe he like melts?
AlexI think that could be, like, you know how you leave a pack of gum in your car and it gets too hot?
MaxThat could be it. I hope I haven't told this story before, but one of my most vivid childhood memories, when I was very young, I had a pack of, what is that gum that came in the huge cubes? It was like a watermelon gum.
Speaker AHubba Bubba?
MaxYeah, it might have been Hubba Bubba, and it was watermelon, and it came in these huge cubes. And I left it in the car, and we went somewhere, and then we came back into the car, and I immediately put three huge cubes of this gum in my mouth. But sitting in the sunlight had somehow structurally compromised it and it turned into a sweet sand. It didn't cohere. It just immediately disintegrated. And it just turned into this grainy watermelon powder in my mouth and I immediately vomited.
MerlinOh, no. I do remember that phenomenon. And it makes me now with a little bit of age on my tires, I'll bet you that that vogue of gum, which I loved, Bubblicious, Bubble Yum, Hubba Bubba, all of those, Big League Chew, all of those. I'll bet you that the process of making that is not entirely different from cotton candy. I bet that super whipped, basically sugar and a tangy taste, whipped with air. And in the same way, think what happens when you put some cotton candy in your mouth, especially if it's sitting on a dashboard.
You put that in your mouth, and now you've got a mouth full of sweet sand. Sweet, sweet sand.
AlexMerlin, do you often keep cotton candy on your dashboard?
MerlinI wouldn't want to say. It's happened to the best of us. Yeah, sure. Cotton candy is such a ripoff. Don't get me started on fucking cotton candy.
MaxUm, well, Jesus Christ. there's so much. I'm overwhelmed. I don't even know where to start with all of the different follow-up that we have here. Let me start with this BuzzFeed profile of Alex Jones. Is that a good... Because this is very Dubai Friday. It's very relevant to our whole sort of, you know, aesthetic.
AlexI think many people, many of our listeners have also read this.
MaxIt's very good. I just pulled out one little segment from this BuzzFeed piece, but it basically has to do with There was a period in Alex Jones's history where he went from a crazy person with a local access cable show to like selling powders and sort of discovered his business model. I just wanted to read this quick excerpt from this BuzzFeed profile because I think it really does. It's sort of the superhero, our origin story of the whole powder-based economy that our podcast is based on.
MerlinThat's right.
MaxSo BuzzFeed writes, as Jones's sphere of influence grew, so did his business. In 2013, the Infowars store, which launched in 2006 selling T-shirts, Jones' documentaries, and a few prepper goods, was reborn as Infowars Life, a one-stop shop for the modern conspiracy theorist. Each product fits cozily into the Jones narrative. Concerned that the globalist cabal put fluoride in the water to make Americans sick, Infowars has you covered with a $14 anti-fluoride toothpaste. Worried that the government-mandated pesticides are slowly draining your vital nutrients?
Pick up some Secret 12, a $29 vial of liquid B12. When the Fukushima nuclear disaster happened, Alex bought tons and tons of potassium iodide, and oh my god, did we sell that, a former employee recalled. He can sell 500 supplements in an hour, another countered. It's like QVC for conspiracy. Infowars Life now sells a full battery of supplements purporting to solve a vast spectrum of problems, real and imagined. Items include Super Male Vitality Serum, Brain Force Plus, and Caveman, a $60 mix said to help InfoWarriors, quote, rediscover the human blueprint and experience
Alexthe power of cutting-edge science. I want Caveman! What would happen if I took Caveman?
MaxOh my god, I think we just got a challenge. The supplements, according to multiple former Infowars employees completely transformed Jones' burgeoning operation into a media empire. According to one former employee, Jones has bragged that the Infowars store grossed $18 million between 2012 and 2013. Another source puts that number closer to $10 million. And this was before the popularity that Jones and Infowars enjoy today. Part of the success of the store came from Jones' ruthless deal-making. Quote, I watched him on the phone with some poor author who'd written a book Jones wanted to buy, and Alex would negotiate him down until
he's making no money. Jack Blood, a former radio colleague, said, Two former employees alleged that Jones would instruct staff to find products that were failing and convince them to whittle their margins to almost nothing in exchange for the Infowars endorsement. Quote, Alex's business model was to ensnare these companies at a low rate and lock in exclusivity, the former staffer said, noting that attaching the Infowars brand to a product often destroyed a seller's future prospects to go mainstream. For some employees, the shift came from what they saw as a crusader journalism
to content marketing for colloidal silver. It became a moral issue for me once, that's why I don't work there anymore.
AlexDid either of you listen to the Stoner podcast that had the writer of this BuzzFeed article, and they talked about how he smoked weed?
MaxWhat's Stoner podcast?
AlexLet's say that I enjoyed herbs, and I enjoyed a well-produced podcast about them.
MaxIs this Doug Benson's Super High Me?
AlexNo, no, no, no, no, no.
MaxIs it the Joe Rogan experience?
AlexNo, no, no, no, no. No, no, no. This is like an NPR, not NPR, but it's this podcast called Stoner. A bunch of people sent it to us. And he, I forget the writer's name, who was covering Alex Jones's trial, talked about the whole thing, how Alex Jones says like once a year he smokes weed. And he was on Joe Rogan's podcast, Smoking Weed. And his wife was like, that's why he's a bad dad. And then he gets on the stand, though, and talks about, well, I-
MaxWait, I'm sorry. Wait, wait, wait. Alex Jones was on Joe Rogan's podcast, Smoking Weed? Yes.
AlexYes, like years and years ago. Let me see Joe.
MaxOh, my God.
AlexMm-hmm, mm-hmm. This is episode six.
MerlinCharlie Wartzel discusses shocking weed revelations from Alex Jones' custody hearings. It's in notes.
AlexAnd if you are looking to see the Joe Rogan experience, the episode is 911.
Max11. I'll say there is something to the Alex Jones sort of message that George Soros is making the marijuana too powerful because when we go to like, well like when we were in San Francisco, we had like some of the guys have medical cards so we had like a weed delivery service come and bring us some weed and it's astounding. I mean it's unbelievable. It's a different drug than I'm sort of accustomed
Merlinto. Yeah, when I was younger I mean, you would buy a bag, like a quarter ounce of shake for like, you know, 20, 30 bucks. What does that mean? Oh, sorry. That's probably an old time term. It was not sweet buds.
MaxThe kids are all hacking their vape rigs to be low ohms so that they can do huge dabs. Oh, is that? I know about dabbing. So anyway. When I watch old stoner things, like when I watch Cheech and Chong, they're always smoking a joint the size of my forearm. And I'm like, how is that physically possible? Well, this is the thing.
MerlinThat's the shake weed promise. And so eventually it got to where like when I was in college, you get dropped $45 in American on a quarter ounce of pretty good bud. Now, the thing was, you know, then you would hear about something. People would call it the one hit shit. And that would be this crazy kind of marijuana that you would put into your personal bong. And yeah, I've had bongs. I've had bongs. and you would smoke it and really one hit of that was enough. But it was still, that was really more of a serving suggestion like on your Stouffer's box.
You could have four and you'd be fine. The stuff you're talking about, Max, isn't this kind of the real deal? Like you do not want like six hits of this?
MaxIt was, oh no, no. It was like, so it was like a sticky, hairy, like alien plant. Like it was all like red and purple. Like it was not recognizable.
MerlinMax, did you have popcorn nugs by any chance?
MaxOh, they were huge, dank nugs. It smelled, it was wrapped in five layers of plastic, and it smelled like a fucking Christmas tree was being delivered. And in terms of one-hit shit, it was like I took one hit, and I was like, I'm not well. I need to go lie down. Like I just realized that all money is like a social illusion.
AlexWow. All right. What are you laughing about, Cox?
MerlinWhat's so funny? What's so goddamn funny to you?
AlexI just like, you know, knowing that one of my childhood heroes has had bongs. I've never owned a bong.
MerlinI had an excellent bong and someone borrowed it and never brought it back. They broke it. They didn't want to tell me. It broke my heart. It was an ergonomic bong. You could easily hold in a hand. It had a hand grip. It's an amazing bong.
AlexCan I ask, how often did you clean the bong?
MerlinOh, I had people for that.
AlexOkay.
MerlinThere's always a guy. There's always a guy who wants to clean your bong because he gets the free resin. He gets the resin. Yeah.
MaxGod, what a life that is if that's your thing. You're like some kind of marijuana sneak. You're not just going to throw that out, are you? I'll have it. Yeah. There's a 32nd of a gram of resin in there.
MerlinYeah, right.
MaxExactly.
MerlinYou know, they're like the freaking vegan version of the marijuana.
AlexOkay.
MaxOkay. Speaking of one hit shit, I have massive, unprecedented amounts of follow-up on the coffee challenge to go over. And I just want to state before we get into this that I've never been less interested in talking about anything in my life. And I made a huge mistake asking people for any information about coffee and any opinions.
MerlinYou know what? That's on us, Max. We should have warned you not to ask for help with this. I'm sorry we didn't get in front of that.
MaxThank you for owning that. Well, so what I've done – so I have a couple things. I do have some helpful follow-up to share, and I've learned some information that we'll get into. But also, sitting in front of me are nine different drinks from the local coffee bar, Werewolf Coffee. I've got one of everything. Well, I didn't get it. My assistant, Kara, got it. Hi. I was too humiliated. I was not going to walk in there and say, please give me one of everything. How did you do this? Did you ask for one of everything? Yeah. Or did you play it off like you were getting, like you had an order?
Like, I would have gone in and be like, I got an order for the whole office here. Like, I would have come up with a narrative.
Speaker AYeah, I mean, I just said one of every hot drink on the menu, and then they asked why.
MaxWhat did you say?
Speaker AI said my boss asked for it. I don't know what he plans to do.
AlexOh, God, that's so weird. That's such a bad out. I don't know who you are. No, you say you're getting it for the whole office.
MaxI would have gone in there with a list like I was ordering donuts. I'd be like, ah, and then I'd make it up. I'd be like, give me one of those, one of those, and one of those. And they'd be like, well, that's one of everything on the menu. I'm like, yeah, I guess it is.
Speaker Aso how did you get the drinks back here oh oh oh um mac this amazing barista at werewolf coffee drove me back here like she insisted and no yeah they're on to us yeah you've given too much away
Merlinyeah you're gonna have to cut her name out because of concerns about privacy you shouldn't mention the name of your barista
MaxOh, my God. Cut it out. How much do you tip for that?
Speaker AI gave him a 20% tip.
MaxThat's good. I feel like you earned more. That's like plus an Uber ride, though. Yeah.
Speaker AYeah.
MaxAll right.
Speaker AAnyway. Did you say where you worked? She already knew Lauren, though. Okay. Of course.
MaxYeah, they know. We spend more time working there than we do at our office now, so they know us. And there's a very good Bernese Mountain dog that hangs out there. Yes. And his name is Elston. Have you met the dog, Elston?
Speaker ANo, I've seen pictures. That is a very good kind of dog.
MaxI'm glad I don't own it because I think that thing, I mean, talk about a one-hit shit. I feel like that dog would shit and there would be like a tremor, like an earthquake.
MerlinYou'd have to go over and knock it over to reestablish dominance. I think it's a lot like having a unicycle or a child where you're just good to borrow somebody else's sometimes.
MaxYeah, it's like a boat. It's a boat or a Bearnaise, yeah. I'm glad that I get to pet that Bernese Mountain dog and not own my own. All right. Well, I guess, so let me share the coffee knowledge that I've learned. So essentially what makes the cappuccino, so the place that I really like, it's called Buzz Killer Espresso in the Bucktown neighborhood in Chicago. It's tragically closing and they're moving to Logan Square because I think that building is being redeveloped that they're in. So I'm really bummed that they're going to be closing quite soon. If you're in the Chicago area and you're a listener,
go to Buzz before it closes and get a cappuccino. What I've learned is that this is actually a pretty special drink that they make. So what distinguishes the espresso, the cappuccino at Buzz is all the shots. They have a sign in there and it says all the espresso shots that we pull are a double ristretto. Is that a thing? Ristretto? I believe based on the infographic that everybody sent us, that's a thing. Yeah. And what that means is they use more coffee and less water. It's like a more concentrated shot. And when it comes out, it has like a stronger flavor and
like a syrupy consistency because you have a lot of coffee and very little water. Does that make sense? Yes. Everywhere else has the normal shot that you get at almost every coffee shop is like a more watery coffee like shot. So that's really what I like about their cappuccino. And then it's physically a small glass. They sell that for, you know, you go and you pay a normal price for a normal cappuccino, but they give you a very small glass in return. And, you know, and it's, it's like mostly espresso and then there's a little bit of steamed milk in there. But last week we were
going on this whole thing of what kind of steam and how are they steaming it and what kind of bubbles and is it a velvety bubble or whatever and it has nothing to do with the steam. It's all
Merlinabout the quality of the espresso shot. And just to clarify if people hadn't listened to that, it wasn't a matter of Max's having trouble finding the drink that he wants. The first confounding part was you didn't really know what to ask for. The second confounding part was when you went other places and asked for it, it was not even the same thing you didn't expect. You kept getting different things in different places and feeling like you're asking for the same thing.
MaxRight. And this was the most helpful answer I got was from a friend of the show, Marco Arment. And Marco said, basically, the thing is like Americans want, when they pay for a coffee, they expect a big cup full of liquid. And most people do not, furthermore, most people don't like the flavor of coffee. So the drink that is popular and that most people expect to get and like complain if they don't get is a big glass of milk with some coffee in it. And it kind of doesn't matter what you order. That's not what you want. You don't want a big glass of milk. I do not want a big glass full of hot milk. I don't want it. And the thing is, no matter
what you order, whether it's a latte or a cappuccino or macchiato, these are all just slight variations of a big glass brimming with hot milk. And I don't want that. I don't want a big glass brimming with hot milk. So, essentially, it's honestly, like it's not it is if you find a coffee shop that makes a cappuccino that some people have called like italian style or european style where it's just they're comfortable selling you a physically smaller drink for the same amount of money that's a special that what basically what i've learned is that's a special drink that special places make you kind of have to seek it
out and it's not always available at every coffee shop and and that's that and it's not really a matter of like ordering the right fucking code word i will say like i guess thank you to all to the 300 people that sent me like, oh, you have to order a triple macchiato, but just the coffee, and then ask them to spoon the foam in instead of pouring it. And it's like, I'm never going to do that. I would rather-
MerlinMax, you were very clear about one codicil of this request for advice, which is it had to be one word that you could-
MaxI'm not going to make a special coffee order. I'm not that guy. I'm not going to stand in line and have everyone watching me and have that pressure going. And then they're like, what do you want? And I'm like, first thing first, do you know how to spoon the foam? Like, you know, it's not going to happen.
MerlinYou pull out your scroll. I have a series of questions before we order any. Hang on a minute. I'm in no rush here.
MaxSome people sent over.
MerlinWe need to get a couple things worked out before we get to this quote unquote order.
MaxSome people sent over this infographic showing all of the different ratios of milk and coffee that you can order. And then other people corrected it. Yeah. Right.
MerlinAnd then.
MaxActually. And I was like, well, I'm not going to order any of these things. And then they were like, well, you don't have to order it. Just bring the infographic and point to the thing you want. And I'm like. You should get it on a card in your wallet like the Constitution.
Yeah, it's like these people who carry the Bill of Rights with them in case they're pulled over for a speeding ticket.
MerlinWould you like to borrow mine?
MaxYeah, officer, am I being detained? Do you know how to spoon the foam? I'm not going to do that. I interviewed Corey Doctorow, sir. All right. So basically what I have here is nine different drinks sitting in front of me. And I guess I'll go through them and rate them. But spoiler alert, I already know the winner. and it's obvious visually from looking at them what is the correct thing that I want to order here. But I guess like...
AlexOh, no. Let's just start with... Do you want to try these too, Alex?
MaxNo. I've never seen you drink a coffee.
AlexI wonder why. Oh, God. Do you want to try these?
Speaker AI don't really drink coffee.
AlexIs there an Americano type one?
MaxI don't know what that is. Is that coffee and water?
AlexCheck your infographic, Max.
MaxIt's espresso plus water. I honestly think I would like that more than the Milky Boys.
AlexMy wife Mel is a barista, and I was like, so what do people order usually? And she says that people say, can I have a latte with no milk, which is coffee? Can I have a strong coffee with water, which is an Americano? And can I have a cappuccino, but with a lot of milk, which is a latte?
So really, we're just a bunch of dumb Americans.
MaxI mean, listen, this is my relationship to America in a nutshell, which is most people don't know anything. And they go to the coffee shop and they have no knowledge in their head and they start randomly spouting off a bunch of bullshit that's totally indecipherable and infuriates everyone around them and they make a fool of themselves. I, on the other hand, know way too much about coffee now. And I go in there and the end result is the same, which is I just start ranting and raving and everyone is like, who is this guy? He's asking to spoon the foam. It's like there's no difference. We're all nowhere.
AlexWell, why don't... I mean, Kara, I feel like it should be your next... Your duties should be to figure out how to scoop the foam and roast the beans. You have a bean roaster.
MaxI'm starting with the latte. It's a big milky beverage. It's not bad. It's a big, tall milk.
AlexAdults should not drink milk.
MaxIt basically tastes like a chocolate milk to me.
MerlinI'm very intrigued by, not to derail this, but I'm very intrigued by what you said, though. I think you kind of nailed it, or Marco, that people think they like coffee, but it's really the stuff in coffee that they like. It's the sugary, tasty, the nutmegs and the whatnot. But the coffee itself, if you're adding that much milk and water to it, maybe you don't really like coffee. Maybe you really want an ice cream cone.
MaxThere's the, I can't believe I'm about to, I can't believe I'm about to reference this, but there's the Malcolm Gladwell TED Talk where he talks about the varieties of ketchup. And he has one great story that I think about all the time, which is there's a piece of market research, of early market research on coffee, where if you ask Americans in a poll, what do you, what kind of coffee do you like? They all say, I like a strong, hearty brew. I like a bold brew. But what they actually like is a milky sweet coffee. Like, based on what they actually enjoy drinking in, like, a blind taste test, it's a weak, milky, sweet coffee.
So –
AlexI mean, that's like asking someone how much can you lift, I feel like. Yeah.
MaxNo, it is. It totally is. But the idea is people don't really know what they want. And if you're into – if you know how to use – if you could sort of engineer a product that is designed for people to buy, you would not make a strong coffee beverage. This is the secret success of what makes Starbucks work for the mass audience. So Starbucks makes this notoriously over-roasted, bitter, burnt-tasting, bad espresso. Like if you just have a shot of espresso from Starbucks, it does not taste good. It tastes wrong. And that's why—
MerlinIt's so different from having like recently roasted—there's a place used to be in my neighborhood where they made their own—they did their own beans. And it was transformative. Every espresso I'd had before that had been like a Café Bustelo or something. It had been like some bitterness made on a college range. And when you have real espresso prepared in that way, very strong, not too much water, it's sweet. Not in a cloying energy drink way, but it's a totally different beverage. When I was in New Zealand, every single cup of coffee I had was phenomenal.
And it's so different from that bitter stuff that tastes high end to the proles.
MaxYeah, and the only thing is when people, what Starbucks knows that fancy coffee shops don't or they're catering to a different audience or whatever is most Americans want a milkshake with a little bit of coffee flavor in it. They want a huge thing of sweet milk. And Starbucks, by over roasting their coffee and making it really, really strong and burnt and bitter tasting, it has two, it achieves two ends. The first end is consistency. All fast food at its heart is about consistency. When you go to a McDonald's, you want the same hamburger, whether you're in Hong Kong or New York or Scranton, right?
It's the same hamburger with the same sauce and the same beef. And their entire supply chain is all engineered around consistency. You get the exact same thing at every McDonald's. If Starbucks was roasting like craft coffee, you would have wild variations, right? Craft coffee is like wine or some bullshit like that where it's like everyone has its own special, you know, a lot going on in this shot, right? Super interesting. So by over-roasting it, Starbucks can make a consistent drink where all the beans taste the same in the end. That's number one.
Number two is when you put that really strong bitter shot into a milkshake, you still taste a little bit of the coffee flavor. If you had like a really – like what you're talking about, like one of these like subtle, like sweet, like complex, like coffee shots, it would be totally lost when you put it in a vanilla milkshake.
MerlinWell, also a cynical person would say that if they were so inclined, making coffee that is deliberately bitter and slightly burnt tasting would definitely mask whether that was old coffee that had not been recently prepared. If you have a lighter roast that's very – a cynical person would say that. If you have a lighter roast, like the kind of – more like the connoisseur types, like that's going to taste funky in a way that stuff that's been sitting in a terrine since 6.30 may not.
MaxWell, anyway, I'm gradually working through these coffee drinks. I will say, okay, I'm curious if you try the latte and the cappuccino. They taste exactly, they're the same drink, right? Am I wrong about this?
Speaker AYeah, that's like the exact same thing.
MaxOkay, thank you. They're the exact same drink. So I don't know why they're sold differently because there is no difference. They're full to the brim with hot milk.
I blame George Soros. He's making the drinks milkier. I have them all once a year everybody's out there
Merlinordering their very special drink they're all ordering exactly the same drink which is some coffee and some milk
Maxokay I've got a red eye I believe that's a coffee with espresso in it
Speaker Aoh god
Maxthat tastes good I would have that
Merlinthat's a good ass drink
MaxI would have that if I were like pulling an all nighter
Speaker AAlex is gonna try
Maxa latte and a cappuccino okay Americano
Speaker Ayou're a super taster so you can tell us if there's a difference it's disgusting
MaxAmericano is espresso and water
Speaker Ayeah
Maxooh Alex is making quite a face
Alexgod damn it the latte the latte is stronger but that doesn't make sense it shouldn't be stronger right the cappuccino should be stronger they're the same infographic yeah i think they're the same
Maxoh they both taste terrible so it's possible that the cappuccino has like more foamed milk so there's like a barrier that prevents the coffee taste from getting to your tongue i think that's what it's being filtered Okay, Americano is good, but not noteworthy. All right, I've got a masala chai. Like, what is that?
MerlinOh, masala. Yeah, masala. Is that right?
MaxChicken tikka masala?
MerlinRight. Mazatov. It's green? No.
MaxThat's a different one. It's green. Okay, what is this? Mm. Ooh. Okay. Hmm. Oh, Alex, try this one.
MerlinThis is sweet. This is a sweet...
MaxThat's kind of an Indian food milkshake. All right, I'm going to try this.
AlexIsn't chai tea? Like, what's happening? Okay, and then I have... Oh, it's spicy.
MaxOkay, here's a turmeric ginger chai. Oh, that's quite good. I really like this ginger.
MerlinYou like spicy taste, though. You like, right? I mean, if I think about you and your booch, like you like a slightly exotic umami kind of uh mix of zesty tastes yeah you know in terms of
Maxlike tasting weird foods like i'm i'm kind of um i'm kind of like a i'm like a i'm like a heroin addict like i don't get hot like you know it's like i'm not really getting high on weed anymore
Merlinlike i need harder stuff i think it's definitely true of heroin addicts they're not actually
Maxgetting high no i'm just saying like you need more you know what i mean it's like you can't
Alexreally go back to like smoking weed opium epidemic overrated all right yeah i like these
Maxchai's I would never order them again in my life but I think they're like a good flavor and then what's what's left here I've got the okay this one is the mocha latte so that's a
Alexthat's gonna have a chocolate component I mean the americano is the most like that is a cup of
Maxcoffee all right try this all right I want Alex to try this mocha one this is just a hot chocolate
Alexwith coffee in it that's what I want from a coffee yeah I'm just like a trash American yeah oh god like I remember going as a kid and getting a frappuccino I still hated it because those
Speaker AThose glorified milkshakes? I love those.
AlexThose are actually milkshakes. They're 800 calories. Oh, the best.
MaxShit, dog. This is really good. This is the matcha latte. So this is like a green tea matcha, like whipped into a latte. I assume that's just a milky green tea. It's a hot glass brimming with milk, but with matcha in it.
AlexI think that maybe my palate is fucked up.
MerlinI'm actually really enjoying this. It's making me want some coffee. And it's, I mean, it's reminding me of how I got started with coffee, which is like one night. This is such a huge night for me. It was my first freelance gig was laying out this real estate paper at the office in PageMaker. This is probably 1987, 88, something like that. Anyway, long story short, maybe a little later. But the point is, it was when I well and truly got into coffee because I've been at school all day. I've been doing stuff. I go and I work on their own Mac like after 10 o'clock and I get to lay this thing out. And like, if you want to make some coffee, help yourself. And it was all, it was just like shitty Folgers, but they also had those Swiss Miss packets.
So the night I really got into coffee, I made crappy Folgers coffee and then would dump an entire Swiss Miss plus sugar and creamer into it. And it was the best thing in the world. But then, I mean, now I like coffee, but I think that's the gateway. This is why you give kids candy cigarettes and shit. It gets them into it. So far, what's the winner for the Supertaster so far?
AlexI mean, the one mocha latte is clearly just hot chocolate with a little bit of like a tiny, tiny bit of espresso. I'm very worried about, what's this? The matcha latte. I really like that one.
MaxIt's just a green tea with milk.
AlexWhy? There's no coffee. I don't think there's coffee in it.
MerlinOoh, look at that. It looks like somebody's drained a wound.
AlexThis literally is green tea and milk. Oh, God. Humans are grossed.
MaxAll right. And then here's the thing. So what I've just had are we just went through eight, what is that, 16-ounce glasses full of hot milk with flavors in it. And there's one outlier on the menu, and it's this $3 drink. It's at the bottom of the menu, and it's called the Cortado. And the Cortado is very different than the rest of these drinks. Can you guys describe it?
Speaker AIt's in a little Dixie cup, like the ones that you have mouthwash in.
MaxIt's like what the dentist gives you to swish.
AlexIt's kind of, I think it's funny because it's what I've seen in Europe, like what an espresso looks like, but still yet in a bigger cup than you would expect.
MaxYeah. So it's basically, I believe the Cortado is exactly what I want. This is basically the cappuccino that I get at Buzz, which is, I think it's espresso and then a little bit of milk and foam. I'm going to try it. It looks perfect.
Speaker AThere's also a pretty design on it.
MaxIt's essentially a big shot. Yes. Oh, that's really good. To me, that is what I want every time I order coffee. But I think you have to like the flavor of coffee to think that that's good.
AlexWhy is there still milk in it? Oh, there's clearly foam.
MaxBecause part of the joy of a perfect little cappuccino is the texture and the sweetness and the toastiness of the milk. You want just a little bit.
AlexI will say, so the reason I hate coffee is because of the bitterness. But if I, again, like if I'm tasting wine, I'm like, oh, that gross swill. I understand why a fancy man would like that. And this you can.
And with this little, the thing that's in the shot, it essentially looks like what you put a Jell-O shot in at a frat party. But you can. You can taste the foaminess of the milk. That's kind of cool. Oh, God. All right.
MaxSo anyway, if you want to join the Powder Nation and order the correct coffee drink that real men order when they go to the coffee shop and up your tea with a masculine drink, and you do not want to be poisoning your body with George Soros quantities of huge glasses of milk, what you want to do is you want to confidently march in there and order a Cortado.
AlexI'm going to offer an alternative which is if you if you are if you're one of Cox's Cucks you want to go to Starbucks get a can of the Starbucks refreshers revitalizing energy and it's grabbing go go go just with the right amount of energy the sparkling pick me up contains a blend of real fruit juice I'm sure it's real vitamins ginseng whatever and caffeine from green coffee extract that will help you conquer your afternoon lull
that I started drinking at 6 a.m. It's delicious.
Speaker AIt's just the Starbucks Red Bull.
AlexIt's basically strawberry soda with caffeine. Yeah, yeah. All right. Come on, it's a cute little can.
Speaker AThose are fine.
AlexI've had them, they're good. Everyone's judging me in the room, really.
MerlinYeah.
MaxOne final coffee piece of follow-up. I did get a very cool tweet from Mr. Cat Tears on Twitter. Mr. Cat Hairs? At Mr. Cat. Oh, it's at Mr. Cat Tears. At Mr. Cat Tears. And he said, regarding coffee, not sure if you found it, but in Melbourne, I think what you're describing is a quote unquote magic. And then there's a link to this article of how Australians order coffee. And I totally do want a magic.
And I do want to say, like, what a fucking paradise that would be to live in Australia and you just walk into a coffee shop and you're like, give me a magic, please. And they give you a perfect coffee drink. Like, that's all I want in my life is to just go in there and be like, make some magic.
AlexThat sounds like a lap dance. Give me the one hit shit.
MerlinSteamed milk poured over a double ristretto served in a smaller 160 milliliter cup. That is my fantasy drink.
AlexIt's a perfect coffee drink. Not sounding less like a lap dance. All right, Max, what is your next piece of follow-up?
MaxWell, this is a piece that, oh my God, it's from October 2016. I didn't realize that. It was like making the rounds on the internet this week, and it's in The Atlantic by Matt Kessler. It's a piece called Are Wet Wipes Wrecking the World's Sewers? Did you guys see this? From 2014?
AlexNo, I did not.
MaxI'm just going to read. I'll just do a little bit of reading on this because it does give a lot of answers to the dilemma of what the fuck is going on with wet wipes.
MerlinAnd what is in your longstanding question, I mean your original unsatisfied question, If I want to be a good corporate citizen, what do I do with these wipes after I've cleaned up my splatter?
MaxRight, because we know that you're not – it's not – they say flushable on them, but actually we know they're not good to flush. So my question is what are you supposed to do with them? Do you wash them off and put them in your bag? Do you throw them in the garbage? Yeah. What are you supposed to do? So all right. This article does provide some answers.
And okay. Well, I'll just start. I'll just read it. Maybe. Yeah. I'll just read this thing. Around the end of high school, Sean Riley got hooked on using wet wipes as toilet paper. He first encountered them at a friend's house on the back of the toilet and decided to give them a try. It's just a totally different feeling, he says. You see what you were leaving behind. When he moved into an apartment in Chicago with his three best friends after college, Riley stocked wet wipes in the bathroom. It didn't take long for the guys to have what he calls, quote, the conversation. They all admitted they were addicted. Once they felt that moist rub,
they couldn't turn back to the brittle chafe of toilet paper. They made a trip to Sam's Club together to buy wet wipes in bulk. Then they had a second conversation. What if they started a business? What if they created a wet wipe that young men, like themselves, could purchase without feeling embarrassed? Quote, that's when we started looking at the market, Riley says. Where is the flushable wipes market at right now? Where is it going? Can you guys guess where the market is going? Our story. Dude Wipes was born The company is a rising star
In the flushable wet wipe world With a multi-billion dollar industry That took off in the mid-2000s When companies like Kimberly Clark And Procter & Gamble Repackaged traditional baby wipes As luxurious adult toilet paper Pre-soaked and cut down small enough To flush down a toilet In 2015 personal wet wipe sales Reached an estimated 2.2 billion Holy fucking shit Dude Wipes has made a name for itself By using clever and humorous marketing The company posts a never-ending stream of potty-mouthed jokes on social media, such as the faux launch of a limited edition pumpkin spice scent.
Riley, now 31, refers to himself as, quote, the chief executive dude. Collectively, the owners call themselves, quote, the ambassadors.
MerlinOh, and I've seen the capitalized ads. Ambassadors. Yeah, look at that. That's very clever.
MaxAll right. Hang on. You see the photo? You see that photo? What photo am I looking at?
MerlinScroll down a little bit.
MaxUh-huh. Uh-huh. Oh, my God, the fatberg?
MerlinYeah, that's fatberg.
MaxOh, we're coming up to it.
MerlinIt looks like you're pulling up Cousin It.
MaxBut lawsuits are now popping up around the country over the use of the word flushable. Sewage authorities claim that flushable wet wipes don't break apart and as a result are destroying municipal sewer systems. The wipes cluster with congealed food fat to form large blockages known as a fatberg, a portmanteau of fat and iceberg. Last year, a 10-ton lump was removed from the London sewer system at a cost of $400,000 and then a little italic L with the line through it. I'm not sure what that means. Did they mention it's the size of a bus?
Cases have also been reported in Newcastle, Sydney, San Francisco, Miami, New York City, Toronto, and Washington, D.C. In 2015, the FTC pulled a wet wipe by the brand NicePak off the market. Nice. Sewage authorities hope that more regulation is imminent. Dude Wipes for its part claims that its wipes are biodegradable and have been, quote, tested by scientists and doctor dudes. Are those claims true? Can wet wipes be stopped or must cities resign themselves to a future of Fatberg?
Isn't this fucking crazy? Every paragraph of this article is more and more insane. And it's in the Atlantic. I mean, this isn't in like a supermarket tabloid. So basically, what the article, I mean, I will put this in a show notes. It's a great read, and it's longer than we can read the whole thing here. But essentially, there's a big regulatory fight between what the word flushable means and the private companies making the wet wipes. They sort of have these, like, they put them in, like, tanks that agitate the water, and they show that in 72 hours the wet wipe will, like, break down into fibers or whatever.
And to them, they can then advertise it as flushable. But the municipal sewer systems are saying, like, well, wait a minute. You don't have 72 hours. It gets flushed down the toilet and it gets clogged in the sewers within five minutes. So it's not actually, you know, it doesn't actually disintegrate. It's not actually flushable. And, you know, it's like it is interesting. Like, you know, I don't know. It's like everything else on this fucking podcast. We start by making fun of it and making jokes about it. And then it becomes this like synecdoche for like everything wrong in America. Right. Where where any individual any individual company is just trying to cash in.
They're just trying to get their piece of this billion-dollar market, and they're all incentivized to make softer, stronger, more luxurious wipes to pamper your butthole.
MerlinTo throw away and then mix with the fats from all the fatty foods that we've been eating to turn into a literal synecdoche for our nation.
MaxYeah, but it creates this problem that's bigger than any individual company. They're all incentivized to contribute to it, but none of them have any responsibility for people's toilets backing up and having to excavate the street and the millions of dollars of sewage repairs that need to happen. I mean, it's a huge problem. It's just like anything else, right? And it also just goes to show that, like, you know, this is the other thing. is like all these, the whole sort of narrative right now of like the right wing there, oh, we're going to peel back the Obama regulations and we're going to get rid of the like onerous,
you know, regulatory state of Obamacare and we're going to free up business to do what they want and citizens will be free to like pursue their individual happiness and profits or whatever. Well, it's like the flip side of that coin is that you're just living in a shitty world caused by companies if you deregulate everything. Like either way, the individual citizens still have their toilets, you know, their shit backing up into their house. Anyway, I've had a lot of coffee, boy. Yeah.
AlexI don't feel like I'm going to throw up at all, and I definitely don't want to go get a flush. Did you see the picture of this fatberg?
MerlinIt's in the text.
MaxThat's the fat and the wipes, and they congeal into a fatberg.
MerlinIt's got a real Lovecraft quality to it.
MaxWe had one of those in the office when the shit lord rose, but it was all... But ours was all tampon based. Yeah, I remember that. There were a lot of tampons being flushed.
AlexThere's too many women in the office, clearly. I didn't want to say anything. I've been saying that for years. Dig dug dig dug dig dug No we're not there yet are we Are we already up to that I don't know do you have any follow up Any more follow up max
MerlinIt's all been really good so far
MaxWell, we can talk about Smalt. This week...
Speaker AYes, please, yes, please.
MerlinSo this week we all became obsessed with the Bluetooth salt shaker Smalt. It's a centerpiece, Max.
MaxYeah, and, you know, there's a lot to say about Smalt, but I'm just trying to figure out, like, how did we get into this thing?
AlexYou mean how did...
MaxYeah, wasn't there some backs? What were we talking about?
AlexI don't know. It just appeared like six people texted me and slacked me and tweeted me and all the...
MaxI mean, this is very much your brand.
AlexOh, God, it's so good. So it's not even a part of the Internet of Things because it doesn't connect to Wi-Fi. It only connects to your phone. But Smolt is the smart home meets dining device, and it's...
MerlinIt's a centerpiece.
AlexThe world's first smart centerpiece designed exclusively for your indoor slash outdoor dining area coming soon on Indiegogo, which is definitely not a weird platform to launch anything on. And it's the first multisensory device to make the dining experience fun. And there's like three bullet points about how great this product is.
MerlinI love the order of these three bullet points so much.
AlexNumber one, you can turn up the volume, pair your phone, and let the entertainment begin. From Josh to Johnny Cash. All right. Anyway.
MerlinSo they're saying, I mean, okay, at this point they're saying, okay, here is a Bluetooth speaker. speaker that you permanently keep on the dining table.
MaxCan I just say also, like, it looks hideous. Or as John Gruber would say, homely.
AlexAnd then you can light up the room, make any moment more memorable with the color-changing bootlight.
MaxDo you guys agree with me, though, that the whole notion of keeping this as a centerpiece on your table, like, it looks awful.
AlexYeah.
MaxIt's like a crazy, bulbous...
MerlinWell, there's a reason we keep... We'll come back to this. There's a reason we keep saying, for some reason, the word centerpiece is very important to this company and it keeps coming up in the most improbable ways but so the first pitch is bullet one you get this thing that's a bluetooth speaker as you say alex bullet two thing is it looks like it's got the ring kind of like on an echo right we know where the echo tells you if it heard your voice and it shows you it's very clever on an echo and in this case i'm not sure this is beaming this light out all over the room like a disco ball i think it just it's like a child's toy it's like a simon i think it just makes little colors on the rim so while you're
MaxIt lights up like it's a water-cooled PC or an e-cigarette. It's just like, hey, look, this lights up.
MerlinIt's a vape pen for your dinner. Oh, honey, the turkey's a little dry. Let's light up the room.
MaxNow, one of my favorite parts of this website is it goes through all these features and benefits. And then the last one, can you read the last one where it's like, also, it's a salt shaker. Amp up the flavor.
AlexAmp up the flavor. Amp up the flavor. Welcome to Flavortown. Everything tastes better with a little bit of salt. Surprise your guests and their palates with fun, interactive ways to shake salt and bring up flavor.
MaxOh my. Oh my god. What are these delectable crystals that you're sprinkling on the food? My palate is awakened. Everything tastes. Holy shit. It tastes. I'm alive with sensation. What is this? What are these remarkable crystals? Where did you get this centerpiece?
Alexwell and the other mystery to me is what is the m on it is that the m in smaltz like you see
Maxthere's a little yeah that's like their shitty logo that they plaster on it the other okay so the final delight that i found on the smalt website is that there's a smalt blog you can go i believe it's mysmalt.com slash blog and they have and they have these talking about their march 27th entry and they have they have these professionally written blog entries that sort of welcome you into the world of smalt and i just thought i would do a quick reading from one of these you know that there's some fucking intern that had to like sit there and they were like hey generate content for the smalt blog like you need something to post up at mysmalt.com slash blog
and and these interns just like they're like english writing majors and they just like went to town but if you'll permit me i i do want to just do a um a quick um a quick dramatic reading the artful centerpiece has been around for centuries ancient romans often decorated their grandiose tables with seasonal foliage and handmade ceramics. During the Middle Ages, aristocrats would garnish their tables with pastries and marzipan, molded into the likeness of people for Christmas celebrations. By the 18th century, centerpieces were made by setting detailed porcelain figures atop a mirror. These focal points were used to complement
a meal while showing off the host's wealth. Smalt blog, mysmalt.com slash blog.
MerlinThere are different types of centerpieces for each key room of the home. They serve dissimilar functions that add to a specific room's style and flow. For instance, dining room centerpieces are used to decorate the middle of a table and add atmosphere for dinner parties. Centerpieces found in the living room, on the other hand, are used to spark conversation and provide a sense of uniqueness. Balanced homes often include key centerpieces for multiple rooms.
AlexI want one more than anything I've ever wanted in my entire life.
Speaker AAlex, I gotta say, it does kind of seem like your aesthetic. I want it so bad. I 100% am expecting you to get a small.
AlexOh, yeah. Because all products on Indiegogo, all tech products on Indiegogo always exceed, I'll definitely get one.
MerlinCenterpieces have evolved in the smart home age. High-tech gadgets and decor serve as unique displays to embellish rooms. Digital paintings that adjust to a room's lighting and temperature are common. Technicolor fountains and interactive touchscreens entertain guests waiting at the dinner table. While innovative technology reigns supreme, homeowners should consider some of these digital items as worthwhile centerpieces. For truly imaginative pieces, ditch the outdated table dressings and think outside the box. What is going to be your next smart centerpiece?
challenge challenge this week comes from alex uh i i didn't want to do anything this week so i
Alexasked both of you to watch a re-watch or what i assume you've seen it watch the social network a film directed by david fincher and written by aaron sorkin and is supposedly the story about the founding of Facebook.
MaxHave you, had everyone seen it before?
AlexYes.
MaxHave you seen it?
AlexMany times.
MaxYeah. I've seen it a couple of times too. And mainly my experience from watching it is I remember what a great film it is. That's how I had remembered it too.
AlexDid you actually rewatch it, Merlin?
MerlinTried.
AlexWhoa. Okay. Couldn't get through it? Wow.
MerlinOh. Well, you know what? You know what? I'm going to recuse myself of this one. I'm going to sessions this one. No, Well, because I'm going to say things that are going to make you unhappy, and it's going to open an old wound between the two of us if I bring up what I want to bring up. I don't know what this is. I'm happy for Alex. You weren't on that episode. You weren't on that episode, and you have wanted to excise it from the feed.
It's a David Fincher movie, so it's very well done. You know what? I'm going to reserve. You guys go ahead. I will come in later with my remarks, but it wasn't as good as I remember.
MaxAlex, I mean, this is your challenge. What do you like about this movie?
AlexWell, when I saw this movie, this was actually, I think, the first exposure I had to Aaron Sorkin because I'd never seen The West Wing. I'd never seen Studio Number, Number, Number or anything like that. And I liked computers, but I hated Facebook, so I was really excited. But very quickly, you learn that this is not a story about Facebook. None of it's true. Justin Timberlake plays the guy who founded Napster. and I was just taken aback by the writing of it how and this is when I think the movie came out
in 20 yes it came out in 2010 and this was at a time that people still didn't really care about computers or how social networks were made there were none of the snapchats or we chats bemos whatever um and I don't know this was the first time that uh like people looked like they were actually doing something on screen like david fincher shoots it in a way that it looks like things are happening and yes i understand that that is not how code happens that's not how facebook
Merlinwas made but you feel like but there's momentum to what's happening and you feel like there's enough explained maybe on on fourth watch maybe a little too much but like when he's hacking together his face smash or whatever it's called like it's it's a very it's it is so difficult to
Alexmake typing look interesting yeah it's one of the famous difficult things yeah and i was i was reading about uh or the the sound designer um well and i think we should talk about the score by uh trent trent resner and atticus ross and it it's one of my favorite scores in any film um but like the sound design of it they don't do like the traditional bleep bleep bleep bleep when like hackers go into the mainframe like there's there's a lot of clicky noises a lot of like jamming on
Speaker Akeyboards and and snapping laptops open and closed and i i just really like that um and i
Alexyou know liked uh smart people talking about things however uh upon re-watching it i've gotta say
Merlinoh my god i am so surprised to hear that was exactly my feeling i was like this is well well executed and fine kind of how i thought about get out like this is very well executed but not quite what I remember. I think it's well done, but I don't think, this sounds dumb to say after only seven years, I don't think it's aged well and it almost feels like a parody of a David Fincher movie.
AlexI wouldn't say, like there are still things where I think like that first sequence I think is one of the most engaging. In the bar when they're talking? No, no, no. No, no, no. I hate that. It's stupid. It's stupid. It's, oh, oh. It's one of the best.
MaxIt's, I mean, And just to talk about that first scene, it's one of the most brilliant opening scenes in any movie I've ever seen. So it does so much. It establishes the aesthetic of the movie and it tells you the world that you're going to be in in the way that it's filmed.
MerlinIt reveals so much about how smart he is, but how broken he is.
MaxRight, exactly. The fact that that White Stripes song is playing over the dialogue with the background noise, it's honestly, it's one of my favorite sound editing things ever. Where right from the first moment of the movie, you physically lean forward in the seat, and this movie is telling you, pay attention. You're going to be one step behind what's happening in this movie the whole time. So apply yourself to understanding what's happening. And then finally, thematically, it tells you the entire movie in one little thing, right?
All the things they're talking about are a little example of all the different themes of the movie. the way that they're and and furthermore one of the I took away a big theme from this thing I never picked up on other themes of on other so I watched it with Veronica who had never seen it um all the way through before I think we tried to watch it and she fell asleep or something and one of the things that that she was asking me a lot is like is that true or did the Winklevosses really do this or at one point she asked when when they were getting really mad at at the Mark Zuckerberg character that she was like what did he do really like did he do anything wrong and I was
like, well, I don't really know how to answer that. Like, sort of yes and sort of no. It depends on who you think the protagonist is. But one thing I think that this movie did that I have never appreciated on previous viewings is that this movie doesn't have a protagonist. You can kind of, everyone is the hero of their own story in this movie, right? And they're all portrayed sympathetically. You could watch this movie from the point of view of the Winklevi and see how fucked they got, or from Spider-Man, or from Mark Zuckerberg, or from the outside and see how these people are all petty and they're all squabbling and it's all ridiculous. But this is
a commentary ultimately on Facebook because on Facebook, everybody retreats into their own little solipsistic bubble where they're the hero of their own story and they're going to proclaim their Aaron Sorkin-esque speeches and talk over everyone else and sort of say their worldview and there's no real listening. And that first conversation sets that up so clearly of like, welcome to the Facebook reading of humanity. These people are just talking over each other. They're having three conversations at once.
They don't even realize that they're being insulted.
AlexOkay, I will say this about the first scene. The dialogue is, I don't want to say it's fantastic, but it was my introduction to Aaron Sorkin dialogue. And I'm like, oh, okay.
MerlinIt's very Aaron Sorkin.
AlexYeah, there are going to be six things going on at once. And it does set up Mark is like, OK, like he's this this strange boy who's smarter than everyone. Like and I don't think it makes him sympathetic. I don't think that the Winklevite and whatever their little bitch boy like I don't see them as heroes. I don't I don't empathize.
MerlinThe thing that hit me and I'm it only occurred to me as Max was saying what he was saying. But I'm going to own the fact that I'm an old man now. And even in the seven years since this came out, I think my idea about the world, I'm not going to get into the whole Silicon Valley problem. although that's certainly part of it. But you know what it was when I watched this? All the people that I'm supposed to be paying attention to are assholes. They're all self-involved, small, ugly people. And I just kept noticing all the Ann Perkinses. I just kept noticing all of the grownups who had to sit in a room and be an adult with these petulant children.
And I understand what they're doing. Yeah, big stuff. It's all important. There's a reason this story is being told. And I don't want to put too fine a point on it, but on this particular viewing, one reason I found the movie insufferable was it's just, it's making assholes articulate in a way that I, not only I hope is not a model for the young people of the world, but mainly I thought, man, there's a lot of people who may have, like the lawyers and all these people, they worked really hard for the whole life to then have to sit around and listen to this guy in a hoodie, try to be smart.
MaxBut isn't that, but don't you, can't you see that that's what the movie has to say about Facebook, of how these ordinary people-
MerlinOh, you think I'm doing an, this is the same thing John Syracuse has said, this is why I didn't get Fight Club.
MaxNo, no, I don't think you don't get it. I don't think you don't get it. I just think, like, the movie creates – that is not an accident, right? You're constantly introduced to these competent people who just don't get it, right? They don't get Facebook. So, like, Larry Summers, right? He's the former Fed chair, and he's this powerful guy, and he just, like – when he talks to the Winkle bosses, he's just like, well, come up with another idea. Like, he just doesn't get it, right? And the same thing with the lawyer, like, you know, with the Ann Perkins lawyer and all the other – all these, like you said, like, the sympathetic, competent people
who are just caught up in this whole bullshit. The adults. The adults, right? They're all caught up in this web of bullshit and you have these geniuses who are fast-talking past them, right? And they're throwing barbs and insulting each other and they're talking in circles. And it's not inaccurate. It's all true. Those kids are smart. They are geniuses. But they also have no understanding of human nature and they're really cruel and they're assholes and they ruin life for everyone else around them because now we all have to live in the Facebook world where these fast-talking idiots think that they're scoring points with their post,
and I have to suffer with it.
AlexI saw an interview with Mark Zuckerberg, and there was the obligatory question of, have you seen the social network? What do you think about it? And he gave a bullshit answer of, well, I could talk about what's true and not true. And most of it, I agree with Max, the theme of it, true. But, you know, there was no Erica, which I think is fine.
But he's like, well, I think that the filmmakers just can't understand young people, and they can't understand that we just wanted to build something to build something.
MerlinBecause the filmmakers were never young.
AlexHow could they understand young people? Yeah, they don't want to make something just to make something. God forbid they understand art.
MerlinBecause once you're old, you were never young.
AlexI see and maybe that's and you know my the other movie that I enjoy important company man that was also written by Aaron Sorkin I think the reason I enjoy it is because it's also like these people are not fast talkers though like these are a bunch of nerds have you watch Mark Zuckerberg speak remember when he had that breakdown in front of a bunch of people with the weird Illuminati hoodie.
They do not understand. They're very smart, and I think if this story was told in a true way, they would be way more empathetic.
MaxAlex, would you agree with me that the use of, to give a charitable reading to this movie, or what is it, Important Company Man? The most charitable reading is that the fast-talking, zingy Aaron Sorkin dialogue is a stand-in for showing that they are smarter than the people around them at the thing that's being discussed, right? Like Zuckerberg, like there's no question, like I don't, first of all, I have the same feeling about an important company man as I do about social network, which is these movies have nothing to do with the tech companies or their origin stories
that they purport to talk about, right? They're essentially fictional stories and I wish they had, like the screenplays of both of those films would be more interesting to me if they were just made up computer companies, right?
MerlinAnd they would have steered clear of so much, we talked about this in that episode, about an important company man. But they would have steered clear of so much unnecessary agita if they had just done a Romana Clay and said, okay, this is about important company man. This is not actually Steve Jobs.
MaxRight. We're a computer company called Smapple, and we make computers. And my name is B. Blobs. It's my Mac. Problem solved. We can't wait to see what you do with it. Smapple.
No, I mean, in a way, problem solved. They do get themselves into territory by taking artistic liberties with a well-documented real thing that happened. um but all that being said um you know if you if you if we can not critique it on is it historically accurate to what facebook is about or whatever like it is it is about like what this movie is exploring is like mark zuckerberg had a way of seeing humanity seeing human relations in this in this in this data driven sort of autistic like inhuman way and you could say depending on your
perspective, depending on where you sit, you can say, well, he was smarter than everyone around him and he saw the way that people wanted to interact with each other and he built that. No one else saw it. Or you can say he was, in a way, he was like less human than the people around him and he dragged everyone down to his level. And this movie does not plant a flag, I don't think. I think it shows that everybody involved in Facebook is miserable, which is an interesting, I think it's a good way of letting you reflect on it yourself. But there is something there.
Like, that is the interesting question. And it's relevant to explore these things because the mythology of, like, Silicon Valley startups are pop culture mythology. Like, this is, like, what we tell instead of fairy tales. It's like, their company started in the garage. It started in the dorm room. It's like, that's all bullshit. Like, it's all started with, like, VCs. And, you know, it's like, it's all, but then it gets, when you tell it 10 years later, it's like, you know, oh, these guys just loved making something and they started in their garage or whatever. And it's never that simple. But I think it is an interesting place to go with like pop culture narrative to start
peeling apart these origin stories. It's also why Silicon Valley has so quickly fully embraced the like, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, libertarianism, you know, like- Meritocracy. Meritocracy. You see like the real man is self-sufficient and can take care of himself and build something out of nothing. Like that is ideology, right? And the people who believe in it, they purport to be free of any ideology, right? They're like this is a worldview free of all ideology. But of course that's where ideology lives.
Like that's where you find ideology is what people say. Like hegemony.
MerlinYeah. I first heard this quote. It's now very famous like cliche. but I first heard this about George W. Bush, that he was born on third and he thinks he hit a triple.
MaxYeah.
MerlinYou know, and that's such a powerful image to me because I feel like that's a lot of it. And it really gets into this whole toxic culture. This is not strictly about this movie, but it is part of this whole like TED Talk culture of like, you know, hey, I somehow managed to not fail at something and now I have advice for the world on how to optimize your workflow about this.
MaxYeah, but anyway, I think that's like a huge cultural thing right now.
MerlinBut people love these stories.
MaxI mean, they're powerful stories. There's a reason that people, it's a reason that every startup has some bullshit on their about page of like, we started with two guys in a garage who just love making socks for dogs, you know?
MerlinSo we make fun of black people who buy lottery tickets. But at the same time, there are a lot of folks out there who are, you described this, I think, as a fairy tale. It is. This is this notional tale of like, you know, wow, that could be me. All I need is a garage and an idea. Right.
MaxRight. And that's why I think it's I like that's why I like these movies. And I think they're I think like part of the job of art and cultural criticism is to like find the places where mythology exists in the culture and like tell those stories and deconstruct them and show you them from different angles. And that's what that's what this is doing. Right. Everyone's heard the alleged origin story of Facebook and Apple and all of these companies. and here's another look at it, right? Here's a look where it has way more nuance and complexity and you can see the ways that things were more complicated
and they had advantages or they were weird or broken people who started these things. And also like how not clean of a transaction it is, right? Like in both of these stories, like you see people giving away a certain part of their humanity to have the success that they do and to have this sort of like, you know, especially in the Facebook story, like, like Zuckerberg ultimately, like his triumph is he has this very like instrumentalized view of humanity and human relationships where all girls can be reduced down to the number of how hot they are and all friendships can be reduced down to the
social graph. And it's, it's a very, um, it's like scientism, right? It's this, it's this total instrumentalization of all human nature down to like a thing that can be chatted, charted and plotted and measured. And well, to some degree, maybe it's true. Maybe we want to make, I mean, the success of Facebook is obviously a big strike in the column of like, well, maybe that really is how humans are. Maybe you really can plot it on a heat map and see the social graph and discover
the true nature of what makes people work in their relationships. But what do you give up to get there? Because you're also some part of what we want to say is your essential humanity, if you leave behind that that some fiction you know of I don't know of like the the the humanness like what are you leaving behind because none of the people who's profit on Facebook in this movie
Alexare happy well but but I think that's the thing is I don't Aaron Sorkin is like a technology is scary and bad and this was made when Facebook still like walls were still a thing and albums were still a thing. Messages wasn't a thing. There was no live streaming. And it feels way more about a commentary of friendship and companies because Aaron Sarkin doesn't know how to use a phone. And I don't know. I don't think he had these big ideas about technology at the micro
level. It was more of like our, like you said, our communication is breaking down and all that, but I don't think he had an understanding of what Silicon Valley would become. The reason I like the Snapple movie more is because he understands adults and understands why those
MaxAlex, what's the last shot of the movie?
AlexThe last shot of the movie is Steve Jobs going
MaxNo, no, no, of the network boy. Him
Alexrefreshing to see if Erica, the woman that he scorned, I guess, at the beginning, if she will
Maxfriend him on Facebook. Right. In this movie, forgetting the real, I think she's a fictional construct. She is. I don't even think she's real. Which is, I think that's fine. Whatever, right? Yeah, that doesn't matter. It's just a story, right? It has nothing, no correspondence with the real Mark Zuckerberg. But in this movie, the character, he remakes the world in his own image to get this girl. He's like, to prove his power and to prove how right he is and to get what he wants, he reshapes the entire world. And the end of the movie, it ends with him victorious, right? He kind of repels these lawsuits and he gets NSYNC arrested.
AlexIsn't it good NSYNC arrested? That is a true story. Sean Parker was caught at a party and there was cocaine there.
MaxOh my God, he totally called the cops. he totally that was totally a setup because he knew that he knew that um he knew that in sync
Alexwas out of control uh hold on no he was he gets arrested and it cuts to him looking at his
Maxbusiness card that said i don't know if it happened in real life it happened in the movie this is the story in the movie they're telling you he he pulls up the open the business card and it says i'm ceo bitch it's like obviously he was like it was like a he he finally succeeds he takes everything out of his way and he remakes the world in his own image and he still can't get the one thing that he wants.
AlexWait, Merlin, so am I completely misreading this scene? I thought it's like, oh.
MerlinI don't remember.
AlexI didn't watch it to the end.
MerlinWhy didn't he go to the party?
AlexBecause he's sad and lonely and he just realized.
MaxNo, because he knew that the cops were going to bust it.
AlexHe's not that self-aware.
MaxHe was sitting in the office waiting for the guy to call him. And then when he called, he immediately knew. He was like, well, this is going to be public and we're going to have to remove you from the board.
AlexHe doesn't. Do you read the movie, Merlin? adjudicate please adjudicate please
Merlinoh I didn't watch it to the end this time
Maxyou've seen the film
Merlindid Sean Parker get set up I don't remember what happened but I'm persuaded by what Max says thank you
Alexit's all I've ever wanted in life I'm sorry I'm a little distracted I keep looking at centerpieces smalt oh man I'm excited for the smalt film that's going to be great
Merlinbut you guys make a good case for it And very quickly, because I do not have anywhere near anything like a strong opinion about this movie. I do think it is a good movie. I think it's just that my tastes have changed, and it's maybe not for me. And there are other Fincher movies that I now love so much more. And, you know, I enjoy Aaron Sorkin. I kid. I enjoy his stuff. It's just that those two together with this particular story, it just touched my nerves a little bit. You know, when you've got other stuff to watch and this comes on, you're like, oh, it was just not for me right now. But I think it's – I would recommend it.
I think it's a good – well, I don't know if I'd recommend it. I wouldn't say don't watch it.
MaxFor me, it's one of those movies, if I see it on, I'll sit there and watch it until the end. It's hypnotic. Every performance in this movie is utterly perfect. And that's because I was watching some of the special features. Fincher is that kind of filmmaker. He's that kind of control freak technical filmmaker where he gets coverage of every shot and every performance from 50 different ways. Yeah, that's so good. And then assembles a performance from its constituent parts. So he's like, let's take this syllable from this one, but use this shot. And it's fucking crazy.
No scene in that movie was acted out in the way that you see it. It's assembled in a laboratory to be the perfect performance. And I don't know how I feel about that, but you don't sense it in the movie. The movie does not have a sort of mechanical feeling to it. You come away from it going, that's some of the best acting I've ever seen in my life.
AlexWell, seeing it like in – sorry, go ahead.
MerlinThis is as good a chance as any also to recommend, in general, a YouTube channel called Every Frame a Painting. And in particular, the one that he does on David Fincher. I love all of his videos, but I think if you enjoy this movie, if you like David Fincher, it's in show notes. David Fincher, it's called And the Other Way is Wrong.
AlexSo, Max, if you watch the special features, did you see all the takes of Spider-Man doing his yelling? Like, I was your only friend. And I just think it's a really interesting way to make a film, especially in contrast to the way other Sorkin stuff is shot, because especially the West Wing, like, you know, I don't know how many takes they've got of the five minute walking sequence. And certainly there's a lot of long shots in the Smapple film. And those aren't like digitally reconstructed.
You can just tell that they're not. And this is put together with precision, almost like it's a movie made by a machine that's, I don't know. But it's not mechanical or anything. It's just perfectly done. There's maybe chamfered edges to it. Who's to say?
MerlinCan I ask a question? I heard a cough. Is Kara still there? Kara's here.
Speaker AYeah.
MerlinHave you seen the Snapple movie? We should ask her what she thinks. Yeah.
Speaker AHave you seen the Snapple movie? I just remember I really liked it. And I listened to the soundtrack constantly still. Yeah, same. That's all I have to say, really.
AlexIt was good. Yeah, I do remember that The King's Speech beat it for Best Picture, and I'm still a little bit salty about that. Yeah.
Speaker AOh, The King's Speech.
AlexSo have you seen the Smapple movie, though? No. All right. I should watch it with you, I think.
MerlinYou should listen to our show, Karen. It's really good. I don't recommend that. I promise I'll start.
AlexWelcome to Powder Nation.
MerlinWe'll make you a super cut.
AlexWhy is it called Powder Nation? Oh, my God. Oh, boy.
MaxIt's a long back story. We're Cox's Cucks now.
AlexCox's Cucks, I like that. Kara coined the term Cox's Cucks. I absolutely coined the term. Okay. Oh, wow. Let's not get into it. See, well, that's the thing, though. We could get into a lawsuit over this.
MaxWe're going to have a real Winklevoss situation on our hands here. I don't want to get into this.
AlexYou're the Eduardo Saverin in this situation.
MaxI was your only friend