401. Sadness Pageant

This is Do by Friday, a weekly challenge podcast with Alex Cox. Oxen Marlin Man. This week's challenge, get into buds. Buds! Hello? Hello! Hello! Pope, pope, pope, pope. I'm so excited. Oh yeah. Breaking news. Oh, the uh new pope has been announced a man from Chicago. We have Pope Leo the something. I'm trying to load, thank you, all of the w websites I'm going to are not loading quickly. Oh, okay. I can't wait to have a very emotional, problematic relationship with this man, just like I do with all popes. Okay. Excited. Sounds wholesome. How are you, Merlin? Oh great. I'm great. It's exciting. Sounds wholesome. It listen. I uh here is my hot, hot poke take. People often ask, like, how can you consider yourself a Catholic?

And with all of that, you've heard Yeah, uh yeah. There's too many ways to contact you is my feeling. I uh I have them all bundled together now. Notion mail is pretty cool. Anyway, like how can you be Catholic with all of these like views on queerness and I was lucky enough to be born into a batch of folks where Catholicism was far more cultural than it was religious. And then when I was in high school, just just by chance I ended up having really, really progressive uh religion teachers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh I even the one time I've been taught in a s like a s a school setting by a nun Her big gripe was that there were only male pronouns in the Bible. So when when people got in trouble and had to rewrite passages of the Bible.

I'm sorry. For for God? uh for f for everybody, because it was always m man or he who shall not blah blah blah blah blah. But I'm okay, so I'm sorry. I'm not talking about okay, sorry. But but like, you know, if you refer to Lot's wife, you could say her. Yes, yes. But you're you're you're talking about the like the more the more general sexism of anything that's translated into English. Where we you go to all male pronouns, because that was chromatically, correct? Right. Yes, especially the the letters in the New Testament. It was originally written in Hebrew. The what she would do to punish people who were either talking in class or on their phones or over. N no, she would have them rewrite the translation that we assume was correct, but change the pronouns to they This happened this happened in the nineties or two thousands?

This happened in two thousand and nine. Huh? Two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine. So um yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then in college is when I learned about our or high school and then into college, you learn about the Catholic workers. It'll be in notes. I've mentioned them before. They're this like really progressive anarchist Catholic group and they partner with Food Not Bombs. And my first like I I wanna say my first formative college uh formative college experience other than the like k kissing a girl part was going to the march on the School of the Americas, which is this uh organization r uh run by the CIA in America that teaches uh paramilitary and guerrilla troops how to You know, um it'll be in show notes.

Uh so th that's like the thing is uh most of my values were in were despite so many of the teachings of the Catholic Church, which is why I know that I'm going to have another hopefully wholesome but conflict relationship with how I viewed the Pope that's also from Chicago, first American Pope, and not even a Polish or Irish Pope from Chicago. This is a real American. Yeah. I'm just glad we're getting more readers that speak English. Yes. Today is worse. What? I assume fluently? Oh, mm-hmm. So I was kind of trying to make a joke about about how because he's from America And at least one other person I've talked to today agreed with me that kinda it was a part of you that wonders if Trump did it.

Like is that how he won? First thing is what happened. Okay, because Madeline and I both said the same thing. It's like I don't know why and I hate the fact that that was my first thought. Because now everything is that. But first There was another American guy who was like real scary, like He openly denounced Pope Francis multiple times. Ormondo Pizzabello, I think his name is. These words are funny, yeah Uh yeah. Yeah. It's a it's a it's a very difficult topic. Um that is why Well, I guess we'll never find out, will we? I asked why. Well, does sometimes if I've started a sentence and it's not finished yet, do you think there's a chance that I might have constructed the sentence in such a way that the part you need to really pay attention to hasn't come yet?

You? I'm I'm sorry for interrupting. Go on. Merlin on. No. Um no, I mean I don't I'm really not saying this to to I don't mean to provoke Or I don't know, I'm just I'm just gonna say it. Um like there's two podcasts I listen to this week that talked uh pretty passionately about the situation with Apple and the App Store and you know doing the right thing and I don't know. Um See, I I this is I I haven't even really thought about this and I I'm really not trying to make this trivial, but I'm saying could we could we maybe just try to stop othering everybody? Can we quit othering? Could we k s just slow down on finding new sources, uh new ways to other people? In the case of somebody like Alex or a lot of people I know, and they're all different people, that's the point.

I mean, did did we all agree we'll never we we retroactively now hate Star Wars because we didn't like the Phantom Menace? Do we now retroactively regret every Apple thing we've ever bought because uh I happen to think they're not having a particularly good time right now with doing the right thing. But it's complicated. And there's a problem that is shared by both believers and non-believers, people of faith and people not of faith. in my opinion. Um th there's a there's an unintentionally uh shared problem, which is I guess the first one is like we tend to think like we're right and other people aren't right. But we also confuse a lot of different concepts with a building. And we confuse a lot of different concepts with the governing body.

Uh and I don't I don't think it's overly cute to try and find a personal relationship. w w how you feel about faith or how you feel up when I say faith, I'm just trying to keep it very, you know, not generic, but like that can mean a lot of things. A learned person learns to believe or try to understand or to find a place in their life for things that they can't explain. I mean, that's part of science, right? Is like we don't act like it doesn't exist. We just say, well, we don't have the evidence for that. Like I I I'm trying to put this in a really in a kind way and there's no way to do it without sounding exactly like myself. But can we all just stop being dicks with each other? You know, because people somebody having a certain faith is not the same thing as going out and pursuing uh wicked things.

And I I'm n I'm not trying to excuse anybody, but I'm saying life is complicated and maybe the thing to check yourself on, we all, all of us, is is less of like how high our guard is for judging other people about what what we think their motivation is, and instead try to have a little more empathy for the complexity of these things. And this is if if it seems like I'm a pill about a lot of stuff, it's because I am. And one of the reasons I'm a pill about a lot of stuff is a lot on the one hand, when we talk to each other, a lot of subtlety and distinctions just fall away because it's n nobody wants to talk about the the stuff that's difficult. People want to talk about the stuff that's easy.

And the people the stuff that most people find easy is constantly seeking or demanding uh approval from other people about the decisions that we've made. I think that is a that is a primary that is that is the original American sin. is constantly thinking that other people are wicked and we have our reasons. And I'm not saying anybody's right or wrong or otherwise, but like Do you want to st is this the sort of template you want to start placing over lots of different things? And I'll end with this. Uh so my my uh uh I don't know, this is just a uh a good teachable moment for me. Uh going into my last year of school and I was working on my, it's an undergrad thesis, but you write a short, you know, thing to graduate.

And mine was about A bunch of stuff involving kind of like Marxist politics, hegemony, uh, but through the lens of TV. And I I was really I was really pleased with myself because I was I was balls deep in the Frankfurt School and Al Tusser and all kinds of ways of like uh kind of reading against the grain, Gramsci, all this different kind of stuff. And I sat there in my my uh sponsor's office. And I was like, yeah, because you know the thing is, that's how they draw you in. That's what Todd Gitlin says. That's what Mark Crispin Miller says, is like you get drawn in. And like really all they're doing is kind of reifying. culture without even realizing it like they're carrying the water of the culture.

And you do that by drawing people in and through things like irony and let them feel like they're part of the joke. My thesis opens with the TV guide magazine cover. from nineteen eighty nine of Bob Sagitt and a camera looking at you and him smirking and talking about how like now you are literally the joke in some ways. But it's okay, it's okay because you're in on it. And he says, yeah. He's like, um, you like David Letterman? I was like, David Letterman is probably one of my favorite things. He goes, you can talk about David Letterman? I go, what do you mean? He goes, well. Doesn't he do that? Isn't a lot of what he does making you feel like you're part of the joke and like you're in on something?

And I was like, that's a really good point. When when when my people that I like and I think are smart and cool and learned, people who I like, when they do that stuff, it's okay because that those those are my guys. But when other people do those kinds of things, it's because they're wicked. And I I this is not like uh uh what I'm trying to say is like I I I think the lack of wholesomeness is in how how you receive and process information. I think the way your your little brain works is is is is quite interesting and I respect and honor what you're talking about because it's fucking complicated and I have nothing to gain by telling you, oh, you're stupid. The Catholics are I'm not gonna email you to say like, oh, all all the Catholic stuff is bad because that's just it's ignorant.

It's difficult to balance, I think, and I think that's a good question. I alright. I didn't say that. This was this was a v very emotional week in terms of like ooh app Apple News in the U. Okay. D Did you hear upgrade? Uh yes, yes. Oh man. And and I really uh I it was just very satisfying. I love it when Jason lets his witch out. Yeah, yeah, yes. It was just very satisfying, um i to Uh I I don't know. It's good to You said it's been an emotional week, but in terms of like Uh is it regard so like l let's I guess we could be a little less opaque here if you want to talk about it, is that there was this court ruling um with uh a very, very well written court ruling. Uh m that I think in essence you could say that um to use my phrase, Apple got cute.

Apple got cute about Ooh, keep going. Basically ignore a judge's order and to like be cute about like, oh yeah, we did the thing, but we didn't really do the thing. And and sort of like, you know, I guess was it Marco said on ATP. It's like, you know, the one of the worst parts of it is like you hate to find out that something's exactly as as as stupid and venal as as you worried it was. And it's like, you know, maybe they actually kind of are about the money. Or you know Oh Phil. Oh but right? I mean isn't that isn't that m and like that's bummer, right? Is that the emotional part or what's the emotional part for you? It wasn't so much a a bummer for meb because it felt like I was just Uh having uh di different crazy pills of like, I'm I'm not going to assume always bad faith, because of course every like that is how businesses work like that's we we know that Apple makes money from this way.

We we live in a this society. But uh it was kinda just like okay but but i i i it is there they are. Affirmative steps to d there this the people who were working on things related to this were appear to be taking affirmative steps to do exactly the kind of uh tomfoolery that we don't like it when companies do. It's one thing they say well it's a company and they make money and stuff like that. But And it's even quite an maybe another thing to say, well, yeah, but Apple's different. I do think that they try to do the right thing, etcetera. But like it would it would be easy to just get into that first level bickering and say, well it's a company, are you surprised? But again, and you said like, oh, I I don't always assume bad faith.

Well we should we oughtn't always assume anything and that's the problem. Is is you you take it for what it is, you run it through your filter, you figure out what it means to you, you try to learn more, you get some context, you get some subtlety, but sometimes you need to just let things not be quite as hot It's just that sometimes a lot comes at you and it's really hot and that can be emotionally overwhelming. It was I think a breath of fresh air seeing that there were Slack messages from employees. who make it scarier. Yeah. When you're not going to be able to do that. That's a term of art from writing. And and it's like, yes, Apple employees like uh uh not a giant group of bad people. Well my god, you know the big surprise is Apple employees wanna pre uh please their boss.

Yes, yes. And it's like, yes oh, Apple has changed. The values have changed and it's like I'm still going to get an iPhone, but I think it it's Good to recognize, you know, the motivations aren't all right. Well, you know, a guy who used to be a productivity guru used to talk about in ways that he had no business discussing really, what it means to really change the culture of your group. Because at least and I'm referring to myself, at least when I was running around with that stuff, there was just this din, this constant din of happy talk. and s and um jargon and received wisdom about how we work together. It's one of the things that I found, you know, very interesting. But I uh I was I am unsurprisingly unusually poorly suited for helping people with that problem because all I can really do in the most most cases is say, Hey, you're not as good at this as you think and being aware of that gives you an opportunity to be better at a lot of things.

So you know Don't assume that all your employees are lazy, listless loafers. Or don't assume that, you know, maybe every boss. I I I don't know. I just what do you what do you say? What's the advice here? The advice here is use your Use your use the good rational parts of your brain, but also remember that your brain is not entirely rational, nor is anybody else's. And if we keep holding that up as the template for understanding other people's behavior And that's that's why I'm that's why I'm touching the third rail to say something here about Star Wars or Apple, which is like it's it's I mean everything's complicated if it's around long enough, you know? And I don't know I don't know. It but it i it's a bummer.

It's a bummer. But you know, it's and it it just gets you back to the same kind of things and th what what uh David Smith had said about this is really smart. You know, it's it's just dispiriting to realize that In this case, it appears that the thing that everybody worried about and hoped wasn't true, which is that actually we don't give a shit about developers. We just want to sell games. Um, I mean It would be nice to see more evidence to the contrary. And that's maybe something that they could work on. Mm-hmm. I uh emotion. It it truly isn't a I I told you so. It's like a just years and years of watching extremely talented people be fucked over again and again and again and just ho hoping and wishing the developers?

Um yeah, independent. Yes, yeah. And be like, you know being like well they treat uh I mean they treat gigantic companies like shit. I it feel it really feels like they're treating you guys like shit like that. Because again we've always just assumed is it possible that the one of the things that Steve got into that culture that has usefulness but also downsides is this whole like, hey, we deserve everything we've got. Everybody else is a free rider. I exactly that was the thing of like seeing people almost dress down at their dignity and not realizing their worth and now they have proof of like, oh, okay, these people do indeed have d disdain and don't value us and w we're well we're nothing to them.

We're we're the ants, as the third body problem would say. Well as Loki says the uh the b the boot has no quarrel with the ant. Did Loki say that's very line? I haven't s I haven't seen it. I don't like it. I don't remember any of the things that I've got to do. Avengers did that, but Yeah, but I haven't seen it probably since then. Oh, okay. The my least favorite. You gotta refill like to to to retain information you need to see it again. I didn't remember most things from Companion until until I watched it last again last night. Companion? Delight, Companion, a wonderful movie that I've now seen three times. I love it. Yeah, it's a good cast, really good cast. Um the d d d oh wait I had one more oh oh here's the thing I wrote down yesterday because I was listening to I was listening to ATP And then I had not listened to upgrade and then it it became apparent that I should probably listen to upgrade before I listen to ATP because they were kind of, you know it was just it was they're talking about the same thing, but they're also kind of referring to what Mike and Jason said.

Um but I wrote something down. Oh god damn it. Oh it's just this thing I wrote down. Um you know it's it's it's it's um It's a I think a lot of us and uh Apple enthusiasts tend to agree on a for sort of a general point, which is it feels to me at least like Apple um It's good when Apple has competition. Let's just put that generically. You know, and as Marco Marco talks about this a lot, and I happen to agree, is like, oh, this is cool because it's something that's gonna push Apple to be more competitive. The here this is not a new thing to realize, but I feel like it's coming into slightly clearer focus for me. Uh competition is really good for Apple for several reasons. Well it's good for us too.

But you know what it's really good for? Is it gives them focus. Where I mean something like the Apple Vision Pro. You know, it which, you know, we p people have talked plenty about it. It is absolutely fascinating, but like Are they really trying to what are they trying to compete with for that? And but I don't mean I don't mean meta, I don't mean a given device, I don't mean any of this stuff. What is the space that they are carving out for themselves? in the same way that they carved a space off for themselves with iPhone. I don't feel like that is clear with the the Vision Pro thing. It s seems to me that they could cancel the whole project tomorrow and we wouldn't be talk most people, normal people would not be talking about it in a month.

Which, you know, you can write down to lots of different things. But uh what I'm what I'm trying to say is the focus is good though, because if they've suddenly got to get off their butt about something where they've had I think what the author Tim Ferris calls passive revenue, passive income. If they've had this thing where they just get a boatload of money and by keeping things the same Well, that doesn't tend to produce good laptops, for example. That you know what I mean? And th there's a subtlety to what everybody's saying with this that's I don't want to press too hard because I don't have the information. I think it would be a little oversimplified probably to say it's the money people versus the we love apple people.

But with that said, there there do seem to be decisions being made that are more about the kinds of things that Tim Cook is good at making decisions about. And then on the things where what he has to make a decision about wars with his instinct on that. It's a bummer that that's what won this time. But th that's why I say the the the competition gives them focus because it also means then you're not gonna run around doing these sixty different weird things and like what boy, I hope they're not spending a lot on the invites app. I I don't want to be that particular guy, but there's a lot of stuff for it's like, no, you've got like you've got uh pipes and wiring stuff that needs help. Like, don't don't worry about polishing the doorknobs at this point.

Like, there's some basic stuff that you've got to start I don't know. I I don't know fuck all about it. But that's one another reason I think competition is good is I think we all Tend to produce I think I think Apple makes more interesting weird decisions when they're being competitive. They make less interesting weird decisions when they've got the place to themselves. And so the kind of trade-offs, the trade-offs that you get in any of these devices, or I guess to an extent in the services and software, like you know what I mean? Like you you You've got I mean on the one hand like deciding to put the touch bar on everything and leave it there with that weird keyboard. We're all still kind of bummed about that.

Well how did we get to that? Well we got to that because those parts were less costly to make and then they didn't want to have to change anything and you know and so forth. But that's that's another reason competition is good is that they have to They have to be a little bit hungrier about achieving the future that they say they want. I'm trying to think of a better way to frame th competition, I suppose, in my mind, because That that's absolutely correct, but But it means so it means so many things. It could mean like who has the who sells the cheapest nails. I mean that's a form of competition, but that's not you're right, that's not the what we're really talking about. Right. It's more it's more like Tesla and um uh like Westinghouse or something or you know that's that's extreme.

But you know what I mean? It's it's d where people really do have to do something more interesting and not just j not just to do some kind of technological arbitrage where you can find a way to eke out three more cents, you know, from this thing. I i I keep thinking about the App Store and the beginning of the App Store and the competition that also fostered community among developers and not even just independent developers. Like streaming apps all at one time but I it feels like companies tried a little bit to like make make 'em good until like They were on just every s smart TV, but the community that used to Yeah. Um and the uh Actually, the Mac streaming app kinda good now. I don't know.

But I I I don't think that, you know, that necessarily fosters a uh community and uh like podcast apps I think is probably one of the things. But this is another good distinction, at least for me. is like, well think about whoever had to put that app together or has had to work, you know, that the whatever team or teams work on that app. Well then imagine somebody comes in and says, oh by the way, Zaz now wants all everything, all of the mobile home and pond content to be right next to the last of us on the homepage. Yeah. And they've got to figure out how to disambiguate that and like You know what I mean? Like the you can't blame uh I personally wouldn't blame the the people who make the app for that.

That's a business decision about what goes in the app and that's a d but yeah, no. Right. That's that's why I'm trying to distinguish that th like I don't I don't know if that's necessarily a huge part of like a culture of a company where it seemed, and I guess now we know, that developer relations used to be a really big part of Apple and Independent Mac developers, especially, you know, were kind of fighting tooth and nail to make cool stuff and we joke about the d of the productivity apps and whatnot. But it really did I I don't know, like most of uh I feel like it's weird when I whenever I mention friends. It's just that simple. Yeah, and it there was a reason that PWAs didn't become a thing until or a rather a popular thing.

People with angina? Progressive web apps. It's never heard of that. Wait, really? So I was just kidding. If I hear about it all the time. I make a lot of progressive web apps. I I didn't, yeah. Anyways, go ahead. Center left web app. Um the I l I love my thick center left app. Mmm, love it. Um It was it was easier and more fun to m make things with Xcode w than on which is wild to think about, but uh At the time, at least I remember dicking around with Xcode and I didn't make anything good, but there were more resources. there than um how how to make good mobile websites because they're you know it was the first touch screen and wasn't really there. Whereas the code kind of sort of was, you know, based on I I know it wasn't really I'm I'm a little bit lost right now.

What do you think about S code? Esk's better or worse now? No, no, no. That in two thousand that in two thousand and seven it was easier to build things with X code for the app store rather than Because of the quality of Xcode? Because of the people around uh who were also using it who were experienced Mac developers and because of the similarities it was easier to get advice and uh It was just like a more dynamic space that led to a lot of people's careers, like freaking workflow. So many of the app the uh apps Apple is bought uh came from that time and now gosh, I've I haven't thought of myself as like an Apple fan in a long time, which I don't I don't think it distin like I but I am a huge fan, like a just full-on fangirl of uh the of so many and I do mean girl and not boy in that like I Fawn over apps is the bit that I love apps, but I j truly truly do watching the decisions that people make.

You really like apps. It I th i it's a form of art that it's very hard for me to understand. Like in term especially now like learning and building more things. Yes. And I I suppose this I I I hope not that like I I know that especially David Smith felt really discouraged by this, but I I don't know. I hope folks also feel validated. I think it was both Jason, Mike, and uh all uh all the ATP guys was like, oh the worst was true. And that's never a good thing to have in the back of your head, but it's like once the band aid's been ripped off and at least Well life life goes on and you figure out what to do differently. But I don't know. Big big uh uh uh an overriding concern for me at this point in my life is I never know how to say this because it sounds it sounds like I'm being something.

But like it's It's it's it's psh boy the curse. It's so difficult to explain to people how much expecting things to be like the past or anticipating that things will be like the past, how much that's not a useful pattern in life. And the if you need to see evidence of that, we have this thing called history where you can go back at any point. And like there's just not that many times. where people said, hey, we should make it the way that it used to be, and it turned out great. And I'm not saying that you can't have improvements in things, but I'm what I'm saying is Are you sure you're not just not you, but the one you're not just more tied to some nostalgic idea of an opinion you used to feel more confident about?

Is it is it possible that what you really yearn for is confidence? uh rather than any given outcome or state. And I think it's very difficult sometimes, especially as a person gets older, to to disambiguate and disentangle those that There's one thing to s it's one thing to say how you want the world to be, and another thing to say just if you find yourself constantly talking about how you thought it should be different. Well, bummer. This is what it is. This is this. You know, uh this is this as uh as uh as they say in deer hunter But also, you know, this is it, as Alan Watts says. Uh what you got is this. So now what are you gonna do about it? And what is the what is your go forward strategy and what is your go forward attitude about that?

and can you find something to be hopeful about in the future rather than just being a a a a permanent professional griever about how things used to be. I think it might sound like I'm ch talking around the LLM stuff, but I'm I Elliot, you should watch this movie Dune. LOM LL OU ID I don't know the reference. Reference is a little bit more. Oh, Tom Brokaw really wants Elliot Kalen to see Dune. Tom Brokaw? Continues. I am so behind. Okay. Uh okay. It's not for you, it's for the people who are listening. I oh I know I j I I'm trying to uh same. I did I did interrupt, but that's because I was listening and there's You what? When I interrupted you earlier in this program and I felt very bad. And I I said how so when you were in the middle of a sentence and it was kind of funny.

I have never been more optimistic about the world, and that's a really weird thing to say or to hear, I think, from a lot of people. But I mean Okay. Um I didn't think I was gonna get tongue-tied or in trouble, but uh Have you found yourself talking to people and it's almost there's like there's shame in feeling optim optimism or feeling not not even optimism. hope or just like a straw. I think I can make it real simple. Um well no, I mean ultimately that's I feel like that's just what I keep running into is that Uh so many people are on the edge about so many things right now. And again, you know, when the only community you can find is about shared rage and helplessness. That becomes a habituation.

That becomes that becomes a habit of living. And now, and again, because why? Because that helps us become more invulnerable, at least in our head. That's my theory anyway. No, I mean it's it's a b and like I is it the most optimistic I've ever been right now? Oh okay, that's good too. But you know, m or maybe everything's just kind of mostly a certain way and we just keep rolling around and we each do the best every day and maybe we need to stop being less dramatic. given the fact that we're so on the fucking edge about so many things. And maybe that's the thing we could work on is not being that emotional about like every single fucking thing that happens. There are things that you could either take care of, there are things that you could ignore, there are things that you could stall, and if you aren't aware of that, y you have one has very little to be optimistic about.

I don't think there's an easy solution for that, but I'm glad I'm glad you're excited. You feel like that like with technology, with like of world affairs? Like what what are things you're excited about? Like uh if you could say. W or or or not just events, but like are there things that make you feel like this time is not may not be as bad as it seems because of these uh rays of light or something? I think exactly what you said about emotion is true because um we've made it socially acceptable to be emotional and encouraged to be emotional, but that's not the same thing as vulnerability. So so many mistakes have been taken out of Bitching and mom. Ask anybody who's ever had a really angry dad.

I mean that's pretty different. Yeah. And I um my dad's awesome. He's so much angrier now. Oh my god, he's dadding hard. It's uh it's I suppose uh when like when I say uh did I say things are the best ever? I I when I say it like that. I think you said you never felt more optimistic. Um because it's not a question of the superlative. It's the fact that it sounds like you you've got hope. Yes. Um because there I I'm often I guess I'm I'm surprised that you're still seeing so much rage and uh like empty emotion. There's a lot less of it, I think, or at least off line because or outside of media because there is this ex exhaustion that comes with emotion and people do want to feel vulnerable and they're like, listen, I am like, I've been looking at a genocide for two years and my neighbors are disappearing.

And like I just want to be sad, but I don't feel like like talking about it doesn't make me feel better. And it's like, yeah, it's okay, dude. Yeah, it's really scary and and sad and just recognizing an em emotion and feeling vulnerability is I I uh hope again. Um, I think in public it's very, very easy to do. It's much more difficult to even uh uh do like on a one-on-one conversation, like in direct messages or d texting. It's not, you know, f f it it there is something fun about bitching and moaning, but like Hell yes. You're not gonna have a like a misery memori if you have a like misery memorial every day, then it's just y you know mm Huh. I uh There's a great line in um Richard Hugo poem called Degrees of Grey and Phillipsburg.

Um I don't know, this line always jumped out to me. Are magnesium and scorns sufficient to support a town? Oh. Not just Phillipsburg, but da da da anyway, it goes on, but Um I don't know that's a great phrase. Scoring. Can we talk about birds? Let's get out of this. This is really really scary. Let's talk about birds. Yeah, let's do the challenge. Challenge this week is too good. Challenge this week. I think it's mine. Uh doesn't matter. Challenge this week uh in whatever way you see fit. Get into birds. And that's what we did. Oh gosh, I I love birds. Specifically. I love Corvids. You don't think it's Um, I do think they are creepy, but I can love them, you know. I I think I'm gonna end those not not not Phillipsburg, but magnesium and scorn.

No, I mean just in general. I I yeah. I burped the big hollow, it's weird. Huh? Their bones are hollow. They're like a Home Depot skeleton. Yeah. I don't know if you remember we met before. Um uh oh she has a famous child. I found out. My wife told me. What's her name? Phoebe? Set her name Phoebe Phoebe Hollow Bones. I think her name's Emily Mortimer. That sounds familiar. And but I think she's got a a celebrity or like an uh like a like a a a a young person who did something. And now I gotta look it up. This yes, yes, actress in several films. Um yep, yep, um She was in the newsroom. Emily Mortimer. Uh she was so she's Hollow Bones in 30 Rock. But uh that's what I keep referring to and you seem to not be catching.

But she has a young person, I think. Um and I'm gonna try to find uh Emily Mortimer Child. Sam Navola and May Navola. I don't know. It doesn't it's probably not important. Oh Sam Nova oh oh sorry you don't watch White Lettuce, right? Nope. For everybody watching White Lotus, um it's um Lachlan. Uh uh Lachlan from uh, you know, uh I know that you won't know what this means. But um one of the brothers, you know, with the brother and then it's Parker Posey and Oscar Isaacs' son, Lachlan. And now the other but the brother was also played by a child of a celebrity, Arnold Schwarzenegger and Maria Shriver. Their son was in White Lotus as well. But if you look at Sam Navola, N I V O L A, you can kind of see it in the eyes.

Hallo Bones. Whoa, look at the daughter. Oh my gosh, she looks like her mom. That's so cute. Who is she married to? Huh? Alessandro Alessandro Niv Alessandro Alessandro Hollow Bones. D uh But their eyes the eyes are so creepy on birds. Like, wait, no, I'm gonna leave more to burst Gorgeous. Look at her creepy eyes. I had a Great success with the great success. That's my new favorite thing. Um with the app you recommended Merlin Cor Cornell Merlin. Merlin Bird ID, I think it's called. Something like that. Yeah. It's Oh mm delightful It's a free app you get from Cornell University and you download it for your telephone and then you can download these packs that give you lots of birds for a region.

Um, so you can pick where you are and you know how much you want. And then it can do stuff like I mean at the most basic I guess it's like, hey, I saw a bird, here's the bird I saw, write it down. What what I find it useful for is you can take a photo Um I haven't done the audio in years, but you can also record audio and it'll try to help you identify what the audio is. I've actually, you know, as far as bird ID, I've had better success with Chat E G. Oh, interesting. It's given Merlin is guessing some pretty uh exotic birds. It thought thought my finch was a hawk. You know El you know what Chai G says finch. She goes finch. It's another finch. Finch. They're all Finch's Merlin. I'll get a a rare one three or four down, but it's pretty consistent.

So you got the app and then how what did you um okay if from we're talking about the app So what did you do? Did you go out and walk around? Did you look for birds or did you wait for them to come to you tuppence a day? Like what did you do? Every uh uh every 3 a. m. I'm woken up by birds. Every 3 a. m. I'm woken up by birds. Yes, that is a sentence that almost makes sense. Hopefully, I'm not sure if you're a little bit more than a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a Birds are the thing with feathers. I was there. I was there with you. And I can't I can't see them. I've tried to find them.

Emily Dickinson? Um yeah. She's in the Apple TV app, hard to get to, but she's still there. I've got to see the sound. Or did you say biopics? You ever heard anybody use it for pronounce that phrase biopics? Oh somebody say biopic the other day. And I felt bad because it's definitely one of those internet words where if you've never heard it before, I'd probably say biopic too. Yeah. Oh, you know what? I was gonna make fun of you and no, I agree. Yeah, like how last week I made fun of you for the first time. Yeah, uh I was like, no one says glazed, what the hell? And I didn't realize that yes, many people, not just men in gay bars. Really? What? You don't know what glazed means? Is it something with cum, Alex?

Of course it's something with cum. Okay. It's always something. I didn't make it up. I didn't I didn't Yeah, but you did mention it. You did bring it up and then we had to talk about it and you forced me to talk about cum. We didn't no no. Now na I I'm gonna mention you're like you're like some some weird wine mom that like read reads a reads a book of like like uh you get like a booklet from your church about like phrases to watch for. You know what? I think Chris Chris all sex is mainstream Or sperm? Yes, because it's something I'm not really familiar with. So when I learn a word like glazed, which I did like a decade ago in a gay bar. Okay. And now I know that children and the CEO of OpenAI are using it and it's a very popular word.

And it's just like, oh, all right And like the term c cum gutter, which is very funny to me because that but then I look at it and I'm like, yes, that is that is a cor I don't know, it seems right. Anyway, I recorded everything throws down birds. The 3 a. birds, and they are indeed finches. Oh, you got finches Yes. Oh shit. Isn't that funny? We live so far away and yet we we wow, that's so interesting. I mean we get lots of birds, but the ones that come to our that come to our feeder are mainly just finches and pigeons. But my most common was chimney swift. And I had never heard of this bird. Are they before? I know that bird do they build nests in chimneys? Is that what it is? I don't know. I did not do that.

Yes, yes they do. Nests and roosts in chimneys. Oh, look at these boys. Oh, these are so weird looking, Alex. They look like a test aircraft. I I I right? Yeah. They're little weirdos and look at that weird little face. They look a little hockey. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I uh that was like my goal this week was I I thought that they would also be finches. And I'm like, I want I want my little my weird little Chicago Finch. Um and no, they uh are uh chimney swifts. Well look at the feathers on their wings. The the pattern of feathers on their wings are so pretty. Does it look like that? I mean 'cause it looks like they're very um like high kind of high contrast and oh my god, it's so elegant. Look at that.

But that face is like a face between like a hawk and an owl. It looks like a D creature. It it like an owbear bird. Owbear bird. Owlbear bird. Hello, I am Professor Owlbear Bird. Owlbear bird. Um, s my new so my new favorite bird is now the Dick Van Dyke bird, but the a bird that Mary Poppins A bird that I had misidentified as a dove. I know I m misdified I thought it was a dove. No no no. Ruddy pigeon. There's a there are many ruddy pige pigeons by but the but they don't look like normal uh pigeons. Look at look at ruddy pigeons. They're kind of cute. And they are so cute. They're like little guys kind of. Oh wow. Well these are a lot these are a lot more handsome than our pigeons. Our pigeons, sometimes they have elegant necks.

But uh I don't know man. I I've had too much exposure to pigeons lately. I I think they're bullies, a lot of them. They are. They are. They bully people, they b bullied the squirrels, the uh it's very, very toxic. I think I bet they gaslight the little doves that are you enjoying how do you um has anything changed about the way you uh think about the world, look at the world as you're um thinking about birds It's another one of those look for the chimneys things in some ways where it's like, you know, I I guess on the one hand you could say well it's a way to get outside and get around, which is fine, but it's also just a way to look somewhere different. Look somewhere different and to look somewhere differently.

Not for looking at at birds because I am I'm a big bird picture taker. And not for like ooh look at that pretty bird, usually a huh, what the what the fuck is that type of picture? And I didn't realize this when you recommended it, but you can import photos i into the Merlin app and it's takes the metadata with it, so suddenly I have pelicans from Australia in my lifelist. I hadn't thought to do that. That's a really good idea. Well I kinda wanna do that now. Yeah, that's that's what I spent like the most time doing actually because I I heard a lot of birds, um, which is which is the thing that has changed. I am uh looking at the chimneys and he hearing more birds and uh it's it's just a little fun thing now.

'Cause you're 'cause you're looking for you're noticing it. Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah. Uh it it's not something that I um didn't notice b before. It's actually something that I uh actively thought about when noise canceling or sorry, uh pass-through mode came out i with AirPods because it was it it was just really cool hearing the birds and like, oh this is delightful and in fact I could hear the chirping better because it kinda I don't know, I just really love pass-through m mode and it um oh is that what the hell was this called? It doesn't matter. It kind of boosts boosts It's the thing that feels like it feels like AI or um uh uh A wait, augmented AR. It's a thing that feels like AR for your ears.

Exactly. Yeah. Transparency mode. There we go. That's it. Um and I I haven't had a ton of success with recording other than uh the th 3 a. m. mm uh uh birds because there were no other sounds but e even at the park there's l lots of other noises and I like the way you're putting that though, and 'cause it does dovetail with this thing I'm very proud of just having said that I've written down. Look somewhere different and then look somewhere differently. It's You know, we've talked we talked about this so many years ago, but I'd suggested to you and to our audience something I'd heard about, which was to call looking for the chimneys, which is when you take a walk. look for and notice chimneys.

And not to spoil it, but well n step zero, you get out of the house, you take a walk. This is something you weren't doing before and now you are, and you're looking up. Well, you something feels physiologically different when you look up with purpose, right? As opposed to just, you know, doing the diminished the minimum amount of noticing necessary to get you from here to there. Um and what I'm I guess what I feel like we're getting I'm getting at it here with both of our points is like y Well, for example, like you now you know about the birds waking you up at 3 a. m. You know that it's unusual to see this bird at the this kind of bird at this time of day. I've noticed that some birds prefer these feeders at this time of day.

Other birds prefer that You can't help but notice something different, and then you will start looking differently, and that affects your perception to where like If you hear like a big flappa flappa flappa, you know that probably something's happened. Maybe there's an animal in the yard. Like I'm not saying you turn into like you don't get a superpower out of this, but it doesn't take over much change. I think by making small deliberate changes to your cognition, it's possible to to slightly change things about how you think. It's also, I was in the bathtub uh yesterday. And I had a thought that I have nowhere to share. I'd never say this publicly because the the arguments would be endless. But I realized that part of the problem that we have right now is that Donald Trump is not a good writer.

And that's the kind of thing where if you said, well, here's the thing. If you say to somebody go, of course he's a dumb guy and blah blah. But like no, it's that it's that he doesn't try to make things good. He doesn't work on things. And he doesn't even try to come up like e like a lot of these dinglings, w everything he says, I mean Steve there's a way Stephen Miller could say things that not only sound better but are better. But like you know what I mean? Like it's just it's he's not a good writer. And I do believe that the more you write I don't want to say the better you think, but maybe the more differently you think. Yes. And I think when you start I'm not trying to say this is not like the secret or something.

I'm not talking about like manifesting. But I I do believe that like gently, not forcing, but gently pushing, encouraging yourself out of the same kinds of sex the cognition in the same way are really good. And that's why it's nice to go like every night before I go to bed, I just go and look at my plants. I look at my plants. I go and I give them a spritz. I give them a say good night, but make like I look at the complexity of all those green leaves in a way that at least initial science tells us does stimulate dopamine. That's why taking a walk makes you feel better when you walk in the woods, because all those little tiny blades of grass and tiny leaves are same way that the carpeting in a casino is stimulating your mind in ways you're not aware of.

Um I I I do I believe that it's useful. This sounds so dumb because basically I'm making the case for just opening your eyes, but maybe that's the case I'm making. Uh I been I don't think so. It was k really profound for me to hear look for the chimneys because I was I I and I am a big big walker and a big big scooter. I love scooting about. And uh when I d literally, you know, that forty-five degrees was just You really can feel a difference. Here's another one to try that that probably means you might heard this from your clergy person or your grandmother, but um tell her I said hi. But next time you're out walking around, um and just walking Remember to think I'm gonna stand a little taller.

Not like, oh, good posture. But like maybe good posture. But like Like do it right now. Like what if you sat in or stood I don't know if you're standing or sitting, but if you're you sit like a little more erect, like hold yourself up a little bit straighter. You do feel a little taller and you do feel a little bit more dignified. I don't mean like you think you're a big shot, but you will carry yourself differently. The same way that I think one reason they like people to wear formal wear to go to formal things is I think they act better when they're wearing formal wear. You know, they can't shuck and jive, there's no gusset, you can't scissor kick, you know, there's all that kind of stuff. But like, you know, you dress for the bird you want.

And I I think coming coming into it though with that state of mind of like, uh, there are subtle things that I can do with my body. Oh my god, we gotta talk about this New York Times breathing article. I might want to put down that challenge sheet. Oh, do do it. I'm I'll look at it on break. I have to do that. I'm gonna put down breathing. What'd you say? 3 a. birds. I'm writing that down. Um And and for me, mine's quick. You know, it you know, do I want to become a bird guy? Well, I don't know. I don't have a feeling about that. Do I want to like make this a tech obsession? No, I don't. I just want to have fun and look at birds. And and but it's also for me it's always comes down often comes not always, but often comes down to projects.

So birds are also kind of a project of mine. Which gives it a special interest for me. So like right before I came here to record with you, I refilled the bird feeders um at the house. And that's like part of my little pleasing rituals and chores that I do. My my my dumb little Zen life that I have. Um but I've enjoyed it very much. And I I do a I do a fair amount of um uh what's the word, not personification. Um What's the thing where we make animals seem like people? Um anthropomorphizing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, not f I don't formally anthropomorphize, but I'm a casual anthropomorphizer. If you don't have a hat, what what's the difference? What w I mean like what kind of hat? What what's uh the difference between a formal anthropomorphization and uh a casual like quick bishop and a cardinal Gotcha there, we got the biggest.

But the cardinal's also a bird. Mm-hmm. Yes. Only the boys are pretty. Mm-hmm. Isn't that a shame? But anyway, you're a cardinal now. G Um, but uh uh and I've been really enjoying that. And I like I'll just look at them and I'll see the like we'll be watching TV And in the evening is a lot of times we're like couples, little pigeons are couples, you know, and they'll come and they'll um they'll eat out of the feeder. And I'll see a bird sitting up there and I'll just look at it and I'll go, hmm, because that's what its face is saying. Yes. And then and then I'll I'll make remarks about whether it does or doesn't like the food. And I'll I'll talk about his personality. And sometimes, sometimes do pigeons fight.

sometimes to to finish his fight. Sometimes it sounds like the whole place is just gonna come down. You know what I mean? Like they're just like banging all over the feeders. I didn't see I didn't see any fights. I except for d downtown m uh pigeons, but they're you know, they're always like boxing. And I really like it. Like one of the gangs and the warriors. They are not a good thing. I expect them to start like flapping their wings and snapping like the like in West Side's story. They've got weird little gangs. I used pulled up on the side. So here's the things that here's the things that I've written down. Now one of the one of the features of this, and this is not a competition so no wagering, but there is a um there's a thing inside the app called Life List, which is each time you sighted a bird And, you know, this is not an a review of of a bird app, but it's a really neat app if you're gonna do this.

And I like that it doesn't require a complete like commitment to becoming like a total weirdo. But like if you see, oh like here's that bird, and you go, Oh, what's that bird? And it goes, that's a blue jay. And you go, okay, cool. I just saw a blue jay. And because it's got location, as you noted from the metadata thing, because it's got your location stuff, it can say like, oh, here's where you saw that bird. Now it's on your list. So you have this thing called life list. And that's all the birds you've seen. And I have three. I have a crow I saw in 2023. And then a finch and then a morning dove. That that's the three that I've got. So I just want to get it out of the way that I do not have a plethora of birds.

I'm surprised, uh actually. There's surprised. Yeah, because you've I'm not trying to I'm not trying to win. No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that I'm surprised uh Pokemon go to polls. Um I expected more of a diverse community. Well, I mean just because the birds exist doesn't mean they're in my dingus. That's true. I wanna get that out of the way. And so here are the things that I've realized about birds this week. Um, let's see. Um birds look really skittish when they eat. Uh I think they're probably nervous about predators, but I also wonder, do birds get ulcers? And would they know? Um big realization, uh not all birds are friends with each other. And by that I mean I don't know why, I just kind of assume that birds would be friends.

But like even within the species I think they got beef sometimes. Absolutely. They're de but right? I mean like that was that something that's not something I would miss. said last week and now I know that. Not all birds are friends with each other. I I suppose I had the reverse. I was like, oh the the birds hang out more than I thought. And you know what that is? That's old thinking. That's me trying to make it like the fifties again. and we oughtn't look at the past. This is the most important thing that I realized, and it's it's profound to me. Attracting birds starts with leaving them alone. It reminds me of my plants in the sense that like I love my plants so much and I want to give them special kisses and then I overwater them and they die.

And it's like, well, that's not how you love a plant. That's how you make yourself feel good about loving something. They call it love bombing on the apps. Um but um you gotta leave them alone. You gotta just you can't be fucking around. It's like cooking a steak. You just put it on there and you cook it and you take it off. Don't prod it, don't poke it, don't stick it with a fork, don't do any of that shit. Like just God, men suck. But to attract a bird, you have to leave it alone. Like people and other animals. I don't think you okay. All right. And also bird is you know a slang term for ladies in England. That's how you that's how you catch a bird. Really? Uh You never heard that, huh? That's uh Beatles used to use that a lot.

I yeah, I guess. Uh oh. Yep there we go. Tell me that you got everything. Oh yeah, she she's an odd bird. Yeah, I think yeah. Hello, hello. Yeah, yeah. Hello. Dick Van Dyke here You know that is a really long and boring musical. I thought when my when I when my w m my wife had a vuggin baby, around the time you were being taught about pronouns in the Bible Uh I uh I I was like, oh my gosh, all the things from my youth I get to share with a kid and we had an eight track of this my parents had very lovingly gotten me an eight track of the Mary Poppin soundtrack that I played constantly. And but I didn't watch the movie that much, because how would you? Like in, you know, nineteen seventy three.

You don't just like go watch Mary Poppins. And then like we had the kid and I started Mary Poppins and it was so boring. And the first act is so slow. Is what I wanted to say about that. But the that does have that song about the Birds, feeding the birds. I was going to say that make you cry when you're a little and made me cry on a little slum. I maybe I just for a while. Yeah, well I uh I uh always uh uh uh fa fast over, as your kid would say. I'm like, okay, no, no. You know what I like? I like let's go fly a kite. I am It's a it's a waltz. They're very committed to swinging that waltz really hard. And I really like that. I like the penguins. I like the sound of music. I like the m the birds.

I also like the sound of music and the play that's called sound of music. Musical, it's called. Musical? Musical, yes, the musical. Music oh the musical. The musical. Musical Drogo. Yes, you do. You never wondered if all birds are friends though, you never wondered that? Um no, no. I I in the right. But the neat part is I get to share that with you and have a little fun with that. But but but I was there when it happened. I was the one, I was there the moment that I realized, huh? You know what? I get the feeling not all birds are friends. That felt important to me. So I wrote it down. I think a lot Since you're not all birds are friends with each other, is what it says. It would help me. Crows are so much smarter than like just you can just see it in the eyes.

I can see you being in a cult. About crow? Me? Oh, absolutely. Without question. Would it be led by a crow or would it be a would it be a humanoid idea? Would it be like a okay. Oh, would it be a specific Oh okay, so like the king crow? I I have a queen, or they crow. Um the murderer. I ideally it would be um um a murder, uh uh you know a a group of crows. A brace is a pair. Um A murder of crows. As the crows fly. I literally never had heard that phrase before. As the it's just one crow? As the well that makes even less sense. You know, roads and sidewalks and stuff. That's why I thought there was multiple. Like they w they went, you know, all of I don't I don't remember what I'm saying. Well you did it.

Didn't but you're trying. You didn't. It doesn't help. It doesn't make sense. As the crow flies. Nothing makes sense if you don't know it. Oh wait, it's the exact opposite of what I thought it meant. Never mind. Never mind. Alex Alex, you came across a phrase for the first time. You came You you came across a phrase for the first time and that phrase was as the crows fly. Yeah. What does that mean, Alex? Turns out it it's what did you think what did you think your your phrase that you've literally just made up, no one has ever said as the crows fly. You just said that And it doesn't mean what you what did you think as the Crow's Fly means? I thought it meant that you were taking uh a number of different ways to get to a direction.

I kind of it's wrong, but I like it. Here's the thing. The cards are Yeah. But you don't know where they're gonna fly. The crows. My idiom makes sense. Why can't they fix it? It almost as the crows fly multiple ways to maybe there's more than a maybe there's one more that like sure there's only one direct path, but there's not necessarily one ideal path. So that's as well cruis lead to Rome. I don't uh I don't know what that is. I'm Casey-less now. I've I've lost it. I'm slow today. Are you looking at Chicago and Pope? You get looking at you big, but you gotta get the POE. Purity of essence. If you're gonna get purity of essence power over Ethernet, that that's what you have to have for ubiquity.

If you don't really want that, as John says, you can just stick with the consumer models like an hero. I haven't I haven't even heard that if it was good it was a good episode. I don't think I need ubiquity. I don't think I need that. Um I uh yeah, uh you would like it though. I um wouldn't uh uh like at the uh at a f I've set it up at a few offices and ran our network at the old cards office. Well if you got the money everything's easier. No, well, okay, yes, yes and yes and um once again there's a huge ubiquitous equity community. It's not just enterprise customers. So a dingling like me who hadn't ever used PoE stuff until like 2012. Um yeah. Suddenly and then suddenly I'm like, oh shit, Ethernet is awesome.

Oh man, let's cap this. That's a good way to get internet through Ethernet. Yeah, yeah, it's a good way to get power. Yeah. Power. Um we almost had a way out there and now I don't think oh shit, you know what I gotta do? So what I did was um what I did was I found I looked uh searched for bird in my uh in my photos application. Now I'm gonna open my Merlin app, right? And then I can say photos, right? Choose photo And I'm gonna go to what I think is a hawk. Ooh, look at this boy. Okay. Jeez, what's it say? Okay. Oh my god, that's so cool. You're right. It even got the date right. It's October 8th of something. And Cooper's Hawk. Oh yeah. So check it out. This is on our neighbors our less is right outside our back window.

You can see um do you get hawks? No. Oh, we get such good hawks here. Oh, that's exciting. Oh no, they're fucking great. Don't don't underestimate it. Don't sleep on hawks. They're badass. Do you do do you ever I I I have had a hawk sit on my you know, I put on one of those gloves and I had a hawk sit on my arm, uh my forearm. You were like a falconer but for hawks as a child. It was two of they're not going to be a little bit more. It's Don't worry, you'll cut that out. Were you at a party or something, Alex? Where'd they put a hawk on your arm? I think it was like a children's party uh where, you know, you hold the snakes. Yeah, they're like, I got a picture of me holding a snake. Pinot. Where's the bell?

I was yelling at the time. I'm sorry. raw transcript