263. The Curse of the Dumb Nerd

AlexThis is Do By Friday, a weekly challenge podcast with Alex Cox and Merlin Mann. This week's challenge, watch what we do in the shadows.

Hello, hello.

MerlinHello, how are you?

AlexI'm fantastic. All right. What is this? 262? Sure. We'll just call it that. All right. We're recording. Hooray!

MerlinI have a thought.

AlexYes?

MerlinI'm not married to this. I think you should say your name before mine in the intro. Unless you don't want to.

AlexI will do that. Sure.

MerlinOkay.

AlexOkay.

MerlinI mean, because by every measure, you should be first.

AlexThe...

MerlinFormer ladies first.

AlexMm-hmm.

MerlinLike they say.

AlexYes. Does that make you a lab?

MerlinDoes that make you a lady at birth?

AlexNo. Very, very fancy.

MerlinThis has been the show the whole time. And also, but like you also win everything alphabetically.

AlexOh, I do. I do. I don't know. See, this is why we need a style guide.

MerlinIs that a burden for you to be early on? Yes.

AlexYes. All the time. Because, you know, it was always, I was either the front of the line or, like, second.

No, no. Especially, like, in spelling bees. And I would, like, psych myself out. And then I would forget how to spell. I still don't know how to spell definitely. But that's what we have computers for.

MerlinDo you put an A in instead of an E?

AlexI just do definite. Wait. D, E. F-I-N-I-T-E-L-Y. You want me to use it in a sentence?

I definitely.

MerlinIt's definitely weird that you can't spell that.

AlexIt's not that. It pretty kind of is. Hold on, hold on. Most common misspelled words.

MerlinWe were watching.

AlexI misspelled, misspelled.

MerlinOh, I misspelled, misspelled constantly. we were watching a TV show called What We Do in the Shadows last night and there's one where I won't spoil it but basically they're watching a videotape of someone saying oh yeah everything's really cool and someone goes is he being sarcastic?

and then he goes I can't tell if he's being sarcastic or if he's being the other one maybe starts with an F and I whispered and then the person goes I might being facetious and Emma said I have never heard that word I said I'm pretty sure you've heard that word and I said but it is a word that is one of the canonical I tried to say this once without ever having I've only ever read this is the curse of the dumb nerd is that

I'd only ever read that word I knew what it meant from context clues but I was probably in 6th or 7th grade when I first said face just

AlexI'm just my face just your face just sucks yeah

Merlinfacetious I was in maybe I'm not a lot of it's not that oh it's a spinal cord maybe I'll bring you a broom spoilers

Alexoh my god

Merlinif you didn't like this movie I'm gonna be so goddamn mad

Alexoh I mean spoilers for the spoilers everybody here thinks

Merlinyou're a really cool guy the words cool guy and man i think i said this last week in the after show three words that have been really twisted in my brain by taika watiti via jojo rabbit and uh of course like the way he

Alextalks to deacon in um you're really you're a really cool guy but could you like put down some

Merlintowels. Vampires do not put down towels.

AlexOn my nice couch. I mean, I am on record.

MerlinI just think about his face and I laugh.

AlexJust the

Merlinsmile. The little thing, like the smile where like his lips are touching in the middle but the corners are slightly open.

AlexIt's so hard to do that face

Merlinbecause... I know, Emma and I do it all Every time Taika Waititi does it, we look at each other and do the face. Peter, I brought you a chicken.

AlexOh, Peter. I love Peter.

MerlinHe's 8,000 years old. Okay, okay, hey, hey, hey, hey.

AlexWelcome to Dubai Friday where we don't talk about the challenge before the challenge except when it's a very good challenge.

MerlinAlso, we only kind of talked about the fact that we're using new technology. And I'm very – we also haven't talked about my health.

AlexOh. Or – tech issues. We left that one on the cutting room floor. That's what I'm saying.

MerlinYeah, I had explosive diarrhea this

Alexmorning. At four in the morning, I ate a ton

Merlinof creamed spinach, which was probably a really bad

Alexidea. Oh, okay. By creamed spinach, like with literal dairy cream, what does... I truly... I don't know what you're talking about. Are you being facetious or have you never heard of creamed spinach? No, I have heard of creamed spinach, but you know, I'm a dirty, liberal, Midwest elite, so there's many types of cream here.

MerlinOkay, let me ask you this in terms of vegetables that have been creamed. Have you ever had creamed corn?

AlexI mean, I don't think so. Is that like buttery corn? I don't know. Sure.

MerlinAnyway, I'm feeling better now. Cream spinach is a classic steakhouse side. It is featured at House of Prime Rib and places like it, Izzy's, all the classics. Cream spinach in the San Francisco steakhouse scene is like considered like you know kind of a classic side and uh and i love it a lot and there's a uh a story or a grocery store here called molly stone that makes really good cream spinach and you can buy and they bring it to you oh they'll also they'll also peel and have

Alexyour brussels sprouts so oh i like that i like that a lot oh it's great then you roast them oh

Merlinjiminy christmas i like to not marinate them exactly but let them sit for a while and some olive oil and balsamic and fresh cracked pepper yeah you like to keep your pepper freshly cracked cracked funny voices are funny cracked is one of those things like uh like uh craveable it's one of those horrible words that has been like in that case craveable i think totally made up by the munch squad industry the munch squad industrial complex but then correct like it's freshly cracked

Dig freshly cracked pepper. Is there anything cracked that you cracked a long time ago that I could have?

AlexWell, yeah.

MerlinHey, we have this agedly, agedly cracked woman. Say when.

AlexThe kind that you punch and push away in airports.

MerlinI'm sorry. That poor woman.

AlexThat poor woman.

MerlinWhen you go to Olive Garden, do you ever play cheese chicken?

AlexParentheses, you go to Olive Garden?

MerlinWhen you go to Olive Garden, you can play a game called Cheese Chicken.

AlexNo, that's good.

MerlinAnd I think it's a pretty well-known game. And by mutual assent, everybody at the table says when they arrive and they start – then they bring the grinder for your cheese or for your salad.

AlexYes.

MerlinYou never say stop.

AlexOh.

MerlinAnd you see who can hold out the longest.

AlexOh. So it's a little bit – so you do like limp cheese basically. Cheese biscuit? Yeah. Does the person with the most cheese have to like – The one with the most cheese wins.

MerlinIt's mainly just a contest of wills about whether you can stay like stony-faced and not start cracking up when the poor waitron making 30 cents an hour has to stand there and be part of your dumb hospitaliano prank.

AlexOh, that's a 25% tip.

MerlinIt was a different time.

AlexHow much percent? Oh, if you emotionally abuse the way Tron, but I thought when you're there, you're family. Well, I mean, that's the thing. They're doing labor and they're also doing, I think, emotional labor at that point.

MerlinIf they're conducting your game of cheese chicken, which is a great South Korean show, everybody gets shot. Here we are again in Spain.

I don't know this reference. There shouldn't be so many bloody dishes over on that shelf.

AlexI only watched the movie. I only watched the movie.

MerlinNo, no, I'm doing it. I'm quoting it.

AlexI got a lot to say about Deacon. Yeah, okay.

MerlinRemember, nobody's done dishes in five years. And he goes over to the chore wheel and turns to chore wheel. I say this every time now. Now that I am so in the bag for this movie and TV show, I say this probably a couple times a week now to my poor family, which is like, it's so amazing to me. Well, one thing I said last night while we were watching the TV show is like it is pretty incredible to me that oh no no sorry it was while we were watching the movie because I said like can you imagine if they had not gotten this right how stupid this would be which sounds like a silly thing to say because the movie is such a triumph but you've watched movies where you

go oh man I really I think like those blacklist kind of scripts where you're like oh I really I see what they were trying to do here but they didn't get the tone right or like the goddamn budget on the movie and the tv show what they do with special effects is completely bananas to me it is brilliant like can you believe how good i mean and granted like it's dark in spots but like

Alexwhat a what a triumph of like but some i i think it's all intent that is all intentional hey

Merlinhey listeners uh we're talking about the movie uh what we do why don't you gotta get outside the Why can't you play with me in the space? Who are you helping?

AlexI'm yes-anding our lovely pair of pals and listeners. I'm bringing them into the space. I'm doing like a, what is it? Oh, God. I haven't been to an improv show in a long time, obviously. Crowd work? Oh, God. Oh, God. Crowd work. Oh, God. My anus just went and, oh, God. It went inside. Are you prolapsed? Oh, God. Oh, no, no. Oh. MacBook prolapsed. Oh, God.

I'm watching all of my friends. God, what a lovely problem I'm going through. You know what? No, no, no, no.

MerlinYou got my text. You got my text yesterday. You know the dangerous waters I'm staring at from the shore.

AlexBut you got it. Listen. Fuck. Listen, pull the trigger now because I waited one day. I waited one day and it's my –

MerlinThat's good. I need that. This is going to train me. Hello, listeners and parimutuals.

AlexThese are people.

MerlinWe're talking about computers, friends.

AlexOkay, okay.

MerlinThat was you. That's how you sound.

AlexThat's you. That's you. Keep summer safe. That's you. That's what you sound like. I want my MacBook professional. and it's not coming until December 1st.

MerlinI have three in my favorites right now. I've tried three different ones. And when I finally read, so Alexandra, you know, needed a computer for their work. I do not.

K-N-O-T. I do not need a computer for my work. But I really fucking want one. It's so hard. We're gonna...

AlexHang on. Can I... I'm sorry. Sorry for interrupting. Go, go, Jess. No, interrupt me all the time.

MerlinIt's the only way you can work. I don't know. Is that, and so I said to you yesterday, like, so I'd gone to the really not very good Apple hosted page for Compare 3 Computers, which is not nearly as good as even like low-end Mac.

But I went in and I, because, you know, it's cool. I like this, you're a cool guy. I really like the sites where you can go and say, like a Synology or, you know, I want to say low-end Mac or what's the other one? There's those two sites. But anyway, you know, the other one, It's like every Apple thing ever made. And then you can bring them up side by side. And then you can tick a box. I love Synology does this. I love the ones where you can tick a box and say, only highlight differences.

AlexOh. So you can like scan down the page and see.

MerlinYeah, exactly. Which is why I ended up texting you because I think I'll read you the text. I'm not going to read you the text that you sent me today, but it will be referenced in a bit.

AlexOh, I'm sorry. I don't want it to happen. I was saying it probably would happen.

MerlinI don't want to talk about it.

AlexI won't. I have no fucking idea what you're talking about, but it will still be a topic.

MerlinWhat I said to you was, okay, there's the Germans. Dana and I recorded, da-da. They sent me some things. Arthur Brooks. Wow. Oh, shit, dog. We've got to talk about the Lutron Aurora smart bulb dimmer switch.

AlexOh, it's on its way.

MerlinOh, fucking A, Alex. We've got to capture that, please. I still can't make the document look right. Okay, here's what I said to you somewhere here. Hey, everybody. Thanks for listening. This is Deep by Friday. I said I said so you sent me a DM and so they're not all bad and then I said MacBook Pro 14 inch versus 16 inch biggest practical practical differences are size weight and battery life question mark because I got down to the point of looking at them side by side and I was like well the standout I mean I feel like hmm yeah the big standout

is battery and the other one obviously is size and weight like it's a fucking heavy computer but like it would be but then I'm like you know the truth is like I can't tell you the last time I unintentionally ran out of juice in a way that I cared about.

AlexYou know what I mean? Yes. Like, I have run out of juice in a way that I absolutely do care about on my watch a couple times a week,

Merlinespecially when you're on the betas, and, like, sometimes there'll be a rogue beta, I feel like.

AlexAnd it just—

MerlinWhere, like, you're like, oh, wait a minute. Oh, I've never had to recharge that fast.

AlexMm-hmm.

MerlinThat's where my NFC thing comes in. But anyhow, because I'm looking at it, and I'm like, oh, the 14 would be so great, I don't really need 35 hours of battery life. It looks like everything's pretty much, if you buy the nice 14-inch, it seems like a really good computer.

AlexIt's, as I said, it's basically the same. And, I mean, I did try to find the different, like, if it's, I don't know what it's called, like, power.

MerlinAnd you said here, I don't want to quote you without your permission, but this power thing, and you talked about what else, spec out both to be the same. but like at the highest high end highest highest end there's a difference in like your 3d renders

Alexor something right right but none of the specs themselves are different it's just it's like the

Merlinfans go roaring stuff that you're going to be used the stuff that'll be happening 80 of the time i don't know another way to put this because i don't understand this like say marco but like there's stuff in there where like okay if there's a certain kind of thing that you do and that certain kind of thing, which is pretty rare for garden variety users, and there's not even that many apps that are super optimized for all of this, but if there is this one maybe edge case, not corner case, but like one unusual thing that you do and you end up doing that a lot more than the average bear, by all means, pop

for this one, because there's never been a machine like it for doing that one weird thing, right? But for everybody else, it's just going to be like, no, you're going to like this.

AlexOh, well, Well, okay.

MerlinWell, tell me because I don't want to buy, but I do want to know.

AlexGet the – 16? No, I was going to say get the 14. Because remember, you have only had the largest – oh, you did have a 17-inch, I guess.

MerlinWell, yeah, but my Mac before last – so I've got the smaller M1 MacBook Pro right now from I guess this year. I don't remember. The one I had before that was a 16-inch, and boy, does it ever feel big.

AlexThen I would say, well, here, there's a photograph of you that I have seen many, many times. And you just look very happy. Yep, yep, yep. And look at that computer, I believe.

MerlinThat's a 17-inch PowerBook.

AlexThat's a big.

MerlinYou know that was shot by a local photographer who does mostly like metal bands and skate videos?

AlexOh, man, we should talk about skate videos. Oh, I've got.

MerlinI think he's a kind of famous photographer.

AlexI sent it to the wrong person oh well

Merlinby tattoos for tattoos with tattoos he's very like a tattooed guy and that was the very last photo he took that's my idea we've gone to Stern Grove which is near where I live and we took a bunch of photos and finally I was like and probably if I remember it serves that chair was like sitting there in the middle of this Stern Grove is this really cool place where there's a Grove. Well, Grove is obviously what it's called. They've got a theater there where in the summer there's concerts.

I saw Los Lobos there. X just played there. Over the summer, they get bands that play there. This is a few blocks from my house. It's really cool. And anyhow, we went there, took a bunch of photos, and it's very picturesque. If you ever get a chance and you're out in the western, boring part of San Francisco, check out Stern Grove. I think it might be closed right now because there was some flooding. But, you know, make your plans now.

AlexYou're talking to the audience again. It's very strange. Oh, okay. Hello. Hi. I'm here. But you know what I didn't do?

MerlinI didn't highlight the fact that I'm talking to the audience.

AlexMm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

MerlinLouis Altausser calls this interpolation, and I'm going to suggest you fucking look it up. Okay.

AlexIn theory, I know what it is. After watching many Adam Mealies. In theory, I'm tall.

MerlinYou are tall. So, you've grown at me a lot. I've got mixed feelings about it. I kind of like it. and he might have brought that chair he might have brought that chair because that chair looks too nice to be in the woods all I remember is like I had this I might be remembering this wrong Jeremy Baramey should be the one who tells me what actually happened I had this vision it would be kind of funny if I looked like an insane wild man out in the middle of some plants

and I had this idea of me being like what I want to say maybe John the Baptist maybe somebody a little more Old Testament I'm like, oh, you know. No, like the crazy man in the wilderness. I had the idea of like I want to be the person imbued with some kind of divine madness. And I thought it would be funny if I did that while holding a computer.

AlexYeah. Well, you were a productivity guru. This looks – it's your tablet – the MacBook professional commandments. I don't know.

MerlinOkay. Oh, I see. You're doing a Moses.

AlexYeah, exactly. You open it up and then there's Quicksilver and your all-black desktop background and Leo Laporte pops up and he starts bowing. MacBook Weekly.

MerlinAnd I listen to him install an air conditioner for an hour.

AlexSo Jeremy Baramy.

MerlinSo yeah, that's a big computer. I still got – well, I mean I'm sure it's super swollen but like it's in my garage. It's really big.

AlexSo heavy.

MerlinI had to deal with it the other day. I had to move a box to get to a box. And that thing's so heavy. It's so weird to see, like, not ancient Apple stuff. Like, we've got a grape iMac down there.

AlexOoh.

MerlinAnd we've got a lot. You know, like, my wife sold, oh, God, her clone from Four Met.

AlexOh, that's fun.

MerlinShe bought a, you know, power, power, power, power, power, power, power. Power, power, power, power, power computing? Yeah. Power computing, right? I don't know.

AlexShe bought one of the clones in the 90s. I came after the clones.

MerlinOkay, so at a point in the 90s that most people look at as the dark days of Apple and Mac, which I think is a very controversial idea, mostly espoused by people who either weren't using Macs at the time or hated Macs at the time or both. Jason Snell and I find it to be a very cool time. He's a cool guy. It was a cool time for Macs, but they did start licensing. Like you could buy your LC2 at Sears.

AlexYou could go to Sears and buy a Mac.

MerlinIt was so strange because at that time, you have to understand, There were no Apple stores. I know you know this, but like there were stores all over America where you would go and buy Apple stuff. Like there was a store here until the 2000s, until after Apple Store started. There's a place on 6th, really dodgy neighborhood called Mac Adam. And that place was, for me being a kid from Florida, it was so fucking cool to come to San Francisco for the first time in 1997 and go into a good Apple and Mac third party store.

It was just, it was so amazing to walk in somewhere. Alex, they had boxes of software that you could buy. You could buy After Dark in a box in saran wrap, like at this place. It was so fucking cool. You could buy 25, that's where I would buy my 25 and 50 SCSI cables.

It was a big deal. It was exciting. It was really, it was exciting. It was like, I mean, not quite like going to the hobby store in 1981, but almost that cool. Of like, oh my gosh, apparently there's a store they've made for me. Let me understand this. You have a machine that sells Mountain Dew. You have lead miniatures. You have someone where you fight with a bird. They had, you know, that one where you ride an ostrich? They had that video game. They had Defender.

AlexOh, fuck, yes. Growl. Joust. Joust. Joust. Joust.

MerlinWow, how would you know that?

AlexBecause I'm a fucking video game nerd. I don't know. Did you ever watch that Charlie Booker thing, 50 video games that changed the world? Yes, very good. Very good.

MerlinUm, that's how I got spoiled on Shadow of the Colossus. I still have not learned how to climb a cliff.

AlexIt's really hard.

MerlinAh, but you know that feeling, oh, and by the way, also there's giant plywood tables where like people are playing games. Would you like to play? Would I what? Oh my God, so exciting. They didn't sell us these rockets and shit, but they did have all the nerd stuff.

AlexWe had that until, I mean, that is before my time, but.

MerlinBut you know the feeling, you know what I'm talking about, right? You can even feel like walking into a bookstore. Oh, right. Like, ooh, this is, ooh, ooh, ooh, they made a place for me. Like, or a comic shop or whatever. Because every comic store is different. It's Anna Karenina, right?

AlexYeah.

MerlinYeah, yeah. And so in Chicago, did you have a go-to Mac and Apple place?

AlexWell, we had Fry's computers. Oh, God, I love Fry's so fucking much. It was so weird and so great.

MerlinYou could walk in there and just start saying syllables and they'd go, yeah, we have that cable. How long do you want it to be?

AlexYep, yep, yep. Can I have a flapjack flap, flap, flap, flap, flap, USB one? And there was a, like, columns and then an arch with an apple on it. And they were all different. Yes.

MerlinYou know, they were all different.

AlexYeah, yeah. Like the one here.

MerlinYeah, they each had their own themes and they were so fucking big.

AlexIt's so – and, well, Micro Center is still in Chicago, but it's kind of like the last – I don't know how they stay in business except for people like me whose boss sends them to get, like, a really obscure –

MerlinMaybe get corporate. Maybe get corporate. I think –

AlexI don't know.

MerlinYou know, I went to Top Tech once. I've been to Top Tech.

AlexIs that – Top Tech is the –

MerlinI want to say maybe the most famous Apple third-party store in America. It's in Manhattan. And we went there to do a thing about OmniFocus. We did a presentation there. It was really fucking cool. It was so cool. Anyhow, the point is not about fries but me holding a computer. I'm about to miss a good juicy bit. But I wanted to look at the computers. And so now I've got several configured in my favorites.

AlexLook at the feats. The feats are so cute.

MerlinFavorites are where my good ideas go to die. I scroll down and I see so much stuff in there that I wanted a long time ago and I should really clean it out. But it's a good historical record.

AlexIt's a very unhealthy thing I do. Oh, I heard it. I heard it. What?

MerlinYou didn't hear anything.

AlexWhat are you talking about? I mean, is it a knife or – oh, I don't have any –

MerlinOh, no, this is my brass Zippo. It's here in my hand play area.

AlexThat's wake. I've never had a Zippo and I...

MerlinThey smell so good. I just smell this. Listen to that. You hear that? That smells really good. The problem is it dries out really fast. I don't use it very much because regrettably I don't smoke anymore. But I do enjoy the Zippo.

AlexI don't think this will come to pass, but there was some legislation that was kind of, it was like bill bait of, ah, all cigarettes might have to say smoking kills on them or something. And I'm like, that makes them 10 times more cool. And that would make me be like, you know what? Might as well try it. It just sounds so badass. It would help.

MerlinYou know, actually, it would make you look cooler.

AlexIt would totally.

MerlinEspecially if you like coughed a lot. I think it'd be a really cool look for you. It would be. for hanging out at the video arcade you guys like Joust before it falls off my brain I hope you're writing things down because I'm not I watched fucking you'll remember this

last week in the after show I ask you a question about a TV show. And whether I understood from a guest what was happening after watching one episode of a TV show. And I said, should I watch this show? Or am I okay to not watch this? Long story short, I watched fucking Midnight Mass. Like, I huffed it. I went down on that show. Like, I really got in there. Holy fucking shit. What a fucked up show.

AlexI ended up loving.

MerlinWell, let me just say the thing. I don't want to spoil this. but like there's something there's something that I if you go back and listen to last week's show excuse me patreon.com slash Dubai Friday I had a speculation about something regarding makeup and yeah I totally nailed it especially on one of those characters and you verified that but then just there's so much about it that's like it's explained but not explained and I love I love a TV show or a movie that goes there it's kind of like when John Syracuse and I talked about Fury Road

on Reconcilable Differences, and I was so happy that he liked it. And he's like, you know, there's these things that happen, but there's no time to explain it, you know, because we have to drive, drive, drive. The whole movie is, here's the plot of Fury Road. You drive to the desert, and you drive back. That's the plot of Fury Road. And you have to do it, you just have to do it, and it's really fast, and things happen.

AlexAnd you drink some milk, but, you know. Go find out what's got that, so agitated. It was $59.99 in Fury Road.

Merlinoh that's relevant oh yeah so what was the other thing I was going to say about that god I'm adrift I should stop recording podcasts

Alexokay well thanks for the heads up

MerlinI was going to say why was I talking about Mad Max oh just because the plot of that okay and so in a similar way but don't you love like again in Fury Road there's just so much stuff that's like obviously you have the at least I have the confidence to go like, okay, whatever, I think sometimes they call it the book or the Bible. Like showrunners will have something in TV shows. They'll have a book or a Bible that says like, here's the rules of our show. Like here's these kinds of things. And, you know, it's not dissimilar from like McDonald's or Nike saying like,

here's what you can do with the arches. Here's what you never do with the swoosh, all those kinds of things. But a lot of it's just guides for people to like, you know, I think it really helps the writers and showrunner flesh out like, what the things are that are always and never true in this world or what this person always and never does, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And I love ones where they've thought about it and I can think about it, but they're not going to explain it to me. There's not going to be, you know what I mean? There's not going to be a whiteboard

where somebody explains the different kinds. I guess they kind of do this in Pacific Rim, but I don't want that much explained to me. I want enough to not miss important things, but like challenge me by not feeling like you have to explain all of this, including why a robot with three arms is better than a robot with two arms. I still don't understand why the Chinese basketball players with the cloud formation are so good, but I get that the Russians are in the big old heavy one because that's very Soviet-y.

Like I get that. I can glean that. You know what I mean? And like in Mad Max, I get it. Like he wants his milk ladies back. But what makes me so happy about what we do in the shadows, like I say, I say this several times a week. Nobody thinks this is interesting but me. I was like, you know, there's that phrase, the pitch. You think of these in different areas. You know, you have a headline and a deck in journalism, right? You've got the headline and then you've got that little line underneath that's not the story, but it fleshes out that liminal space between the headline and the text of the article.

The deck kind of like expands it. I think in TV and in movies it's called a log line, which is like a – the kind of like – I want to say almost like what goes in TV guide. It's the most boiled down explanation of something. And then from – I think the log line you could very much think of as eventually being derived out of what we might call the pitch.

AlexWell, that – and it's also considered like an elevator pitch. Like, ah, you've got –

MerlinExactly. That's exactly right. So – and just so you all know, I'm sure you all know this, but where did that come from? Well, the idea is if you ran into somebody in a position of power in an elevator, in the amount of time it takes to take an elevator ride, could you pitch your product to them? Right. In other words, it's this is way more. This is like very, very boiled down Guy Kawasaki kind of thing. Are you so comfortable, so good at knowing what you do that you could meet this person, immediately suss them out and give a pitch for your company in approximately, I would say, less than 20 seconds?

AlexYep. Yep.

MerlinCan you do the elevator? And if you can't do the elevator pitch, it doesn't mean you're dead in the water, but you should be able to do the elevator pitch. You know, I wish I ever watched their uncle die or whatever.

AlexI had a teacher, a couple of teachers in film school that deliberately, as we were leaving class, be like, oh, yeah, I'm I'm going I'm going down to or is like, save save save the door for me. And then you were like, oh, oh, boy. So they were basically teaching you to like always know what the story is. And especially with documentaries, which is my thing, like every time your story changes, because it often does when you're making, you know.

That's the other thing that I love about what you do in the shadows, because it's like a real documentary, because you think about one thing and then it's like about a different thing. And that's what like documentaries happen. So you always need to know the pitch.

MerlinWow. Well, because like, and we've said this before, can you, did you get it in the camera? Did you get it on the page? Did you, can you save it in the edit? Like you, you got to have, it seems to me you must have some evolving sense, you know, knowing what you know and what your budget is and what your whatever is. But like, I mean, I have to say one ding I have against a fair amount of modern documentaries. The big thing that, and again, I, I, I think, did we ever end up watching Sherman's March for this program?

AlexNo, I don't think so.

MerlinBut I think Sherman's March is the first one of these that I can remember seeing. Sherman's March was so unusual at the time because the thing is it came out in like 86, 87, but it was shot in like 81 or 82, I think. It was – what's his name? The guy. Ross. Ross. Ross. Ross. Ross had been working on it for a long time. But that was the first documentary I remember seeing where it seemed like it was going to be about one thing and then it was about another. And like very early on, you realize, oh, this is going to be Ross McElway telling a story about Ross McElway.

And he's not a reliable narrator. And it's really weird. And I was like, oh, my God, this movie is so goddamn weird. It's so triumphant. And what he got, he got footage of the girl on roller skates who comes up later on and like, oh, my God, I can't believe he pulled this off. When he started off, he said, I'm going to go make a documentary where I retrace Sherman's march to the sea. And then it turns into a documentary. And who knows how much of this he had in mind. But then he can't get anything done with that. He's dreaming about he can't sleep because of fear of nuclear war.

he then he does end up trying to retrace Sherman's Marsh to the sea but he just keeps running into women that he had a crush on or like it's just that are unattainable to him and it's just brutal but you know guys that was then this is now as Essie Hinton says and like I've had enough of it like the Paul Williams documentary is so fun but it's really kind of like you know that guy went into that knowing he was going to make himself the center of the story I mean I I have to say has supersized me aged really well.

AlexI think it just feels like more and more of a jam up.

MerlinYeah, Michael Moore did a fantastic job with Roger and me, but then we could tell what he was doing. And he was just doing this pantomime, Michael. So, you know what I mean?

AlexYeah, Michael Moore breaks my heart because he has an extreme amount of power and he commands so much attention.

MerlinAnd he's very dishonest in his movies. He's intellectually extremely dishonest. Even beyond the like, oh, edits or decisions kinds of things. Okay, so here's what I love. I mean, I can't stop going over this in my head. And this does also relate to the whole, like, there's so many ways. Oh, you know when we were talking about Prop All last week? There's one way to do the movie, what we do in the shadows. There's one way to do it, and there's every other way, right? If this had been done or ended up almost any other way, it could have been fun but not as successful. And my daughter and I argued about this because she's like,

I love this movie so much, even if it sucked, I would watch it. And I was like, I think I get that. But especially in genre pieces, it's what makes something like Taika Waititi, Edgar Wright, these certain kinds of directors, like makes them – or you know what? How about Olivia Wilde in Booksmart?

AlexOh, gosh.

MerlinWhat's the pitch for Booksmart? It's like almost every Mookie, Adam McKay – or no, sorry. Who's the other guy? Judd?

AlexJudd Apatow. Adam McKay is like a man.

MerlinIt's basically like every Judd Apatow movie, but with two girls.

AlexMm-hmm. Oh, Booksmart. Coming of Age. Yeah, that would be –

MerlinI mean very much also like – but shading in from – I mean like if you think about it though, Superbad is certainly very influenced by a bunch of 70s, 80s, 90s like boy bonding movies and whether it's Porky's or whatever. but like you know but but like so the pitch for book smart might be and by pitch the whole point is you you can't be too long it needs to be crazy short it needs to be basically a sentence or two as i understand it but the pitch for book smart in retrospect seems to be it's like a lot of judd apatow movies you consider a guilty pleasure uh but it's with two really smart girls who are best

friends but really different and somewhere and i just keep thinking about this when i'm watching what we do in the shadows and he and deacon that for in the first little bit when they're arguing about the chores and he's knitting and they both fly up into the air and start hissing each other at each other and you're like there's no throat clearing about that effect they just did it and it looked fucking amazing i know they pulled it off so or just even like when taika watiti's rising out of the coffin tentatively it's so effective then you could tell as with edgar right the people who made this genre parody are obviously huge fans or Tropic Thunder obviously huge fans who've

lived inside of this genre and love the conventions of the genre you know what I mean that's why I

Alexreally dislike most mockumentaries because because you can tell they're not super fans the well now you don't need to be a super fan but like mockumentaries almost mock the style of documentaries, which I guess is successful sometimes, but this is I don't even know what to call it. Do you like Documentary Now?

MerlinAre there some Documentary Now episodes you like?

AlexYou don't like the one with the chicken and the corn? I don't know if I've seen that one.

MerlinThe chicken and the rice and the coffee? Fred Armisen, it's basically so Documentary Now is at least starring and probably produced by Bill Hader and Bill Hader and oh my god, Fred Armisen, the host of this documentary series, of course, is Helen Mirren. And Helen Mirren introduces the segments. And they're parodying famous documentaries.

So they're parodying Swimming to Cambodia, probably their most, maybe their most famous episode parodying Grey Gardens. They parody the company documentary to great effect with fucking Richard Kind of all people. and Paula Pell, the Zillian Stritch character. And, you know, John Mulaney plays Sondheim in it, basically.

AlexOh, what? Oh, that got me excited.

MerlinI think it's called Co-op instead of Company. It's called Co-op.

AlexWell, that's the issue.

MerlinAlso, my boyfriend James Urbaniak is in it. He's great, too.

AlexWell, maybe it's because I'm burned out on, like, satire and irony.

MerlinNo, a little goes a long way. No, I totally. But anyway, there's one, and it's essentially, I mean, spoiler. It's so Jiro, Dreams of Sushi, which I enjoyed but did not like nearly as much as the Jason Kaki types of the world. It's a little overrated. But it was enjoyable, and I get what they were trying to do. So imagine instead it's in Central America, and there's an old man who has this three-table restaurant in the middle of a jungle. and all he serves is chicken, rice, bananas, and coffee.

But it's the best chicken, rice, bananas, and coffee. And so imagine, you know, all the like, it's like watching Helvetica, all the annoying shit about Jira. I get it, I get it, I get it. You care a lot. We get it. You care a lot and you're not emotionally available. We get it. But like, now imagine that, except that like you have to like, Fred Armisen is his son. He has two sons, one of which has started basically like, a Senior Chang's Express style shitty Latin restaurant chain

that's basically like a place where they put a sombrero on you to sing. He hates his son who's gone off to start a successful restaurant chain. Fred Armisen is still at home working at the chicken and rice place. And he rejects almost all look at each grain of rice. Fred Armisen has to bury a bag of coffee and then hit it against a tree. And there's all these rules. The milk has to come from the cow within 30 minutes, they throw it out and make them go back.

I really enjoy that show. Can I do my pitch for What We Do in the Shadows?

AlexI mean, I'm all in, but yes. Hey, audience, Merlin's going to pitch What We Do in the Shadows. Did I cut you off? No, no, no. Go, go.

MerlinI really didn't mean to.

AlexNo, I'm all in.

MerlinBut this is what I think about when I watch the TV show and I watch the movie because it's just let's forget how good this franchise is And let's go back to a meeting where somebody, presumably Jermaine and Taika, have to say, we have this idea for a show and it's about, you know, flatmates in Wellington, New Zealand, and they have all the problems of flatmates, but they're vampires. it's ultimately a story about vampire roommates and they pretty much hue to it i mean it's not

like like a 60s 70s sitcom where it's almost the same episode every week for for two years but i just love the idea that when it comes back to it it's always about roommates trying to get along except oh did i mention they're vampires and well and it's about this city they live in too in America, it goes from Wellington to Staten Island.

AlexYeah, yeah.

MerlinIt comes to Staten Island because they have been sent to take over the new world many hundreds of years ago, and they're not doing great. Spoilers, they've gotten two streets in Staten Island, and they're really not pulling their weight. But I don't know. That just makes me laugh. I'm like, when he has a chore wheel, it just makes me so happy.

AlexThe first time they run into, I guess sort of, spoilers, but like, running, running. Oh, is there werewolves? Dig it, dig it, dig it, dig it. Dig it, dig it, dig it. Dig it, dig it, dig it. This week, watch the 2014 movie.

MerlinWhat are we doing in the shadows?

AlexOh, man. God, this, well, like I just said, I'm not really a fan of most mockumentaries because it's like, okay, do you care about the subject? And it's just like, ha ha. I do love The Office, but like the whole frame, you forget that it's, you know, a doc, or at least The American Office.

MerlinAnd then when they finally do start acknowledging it, the show goes in the toilet.

AlexYeah, there are moments, but yeah.

MerlinWhen they make Russ Hanneman be the competition for Jim, it just makes me sad. And I love Russ Hanneman.

AlexYeah, yeah. I always forget it's him, too. He's weird as an ice guy. Anyway.

MerlinHe's also the German guy. He's also the foosball guy in Community.

AlexOh, yeah. Foosball. I love the Germans.

MerlinAlso, you can look forward to a little bit of Nick Kroll and what we do on the Shadows TV show.

AlexOh, yeah. Well, and I was thinking like it's such a good – I can see the meeting where the producer is like, ah, yes, this is a franchise. And I guess it does become a franchise. But it's just – it feels so authentic. And when something happens, it's like, oh, yes, that is what a vampire would do. But it's like, oh, these –

MerlinIt's exactly what that vampire would do.

AlexYes. Yes. And I mean, God, like, Jock Werewolves.

MerlinI'm at the Met. Oh, my God.

AlexOh, my God. Stu. Oh, my God. And like I said, it's like, yes, this is a premise for a documentary. But then it ends up being about friendship. And like, oh, man. Alex, this is a premise for a sketch.

MerlinThis is a premise for like a sketch.

AlexA mediocre sketch.

Merlin90s we need a repeating sketch on SNL and it's something called Vampire Roommates or something. And you'd be like, oh my, ah, ah, one, two, three weeks the rent is late.

AlexYep. And that's the thing. Typer Watch TV could pull that off, but no.

MerlinI'm not sure Rob Schneider would. Making victims. Oh, God, David Spade with his big stupid hair.

AlexNo, I don't like this universe. Could you be more of a vampire? I don't like this universe.

MerlinChris Farley falls through a table. I'm living in a casket down by the Wellington River. Now, Wellington also, supposedly, Wellington is where I did the talk where I cried. Wellington also is famous for being pretty haunted. There is a thing where there's haunting things.

AlexOh, that's actually really cool. I'm one of those people who's like sort of believes in ghosts, but it's too ashamed to admit it. And which is why I don't go on.

MerlinI think everybody sort of believes in ghosts.

AlexYeah, but I mean, that's I don't know. It ends up being like about the part where they can't, they just go out of the town, but they need to be invited inside.

MerlinOh, my God. Yes. It's the most exclusive club for, it's the most, how is this, the way he says it, it's his line reading. It's great. He goes, it's the most exclusive club for vampires in Wellington. And then you go in, there's like six people. It looks like, it looks like a, like a, like a, like your rectory rec room at the, you know, CYA or whatever.

AlexIt's where the 19-year-old college students go because no one cares about who comes in.

MerlinAnd then encountering other vampires. Anyway, let's talk about this. I love this movie so much, Alex. I mean, this is not even a challenge. It's just, to me, a fun way to talk about a fun thing. And I hope you'll be happy to know that you have so much to look forward to with the TV show. I think I might like the TV show even more.

AlexReally?

Merlinit's improbably good we'll get to the little save it remind me to get to the rant about this and where i compare this to the office and get a lot of hate mail but um it's it's it's miraculous that the tv show is as wildly successful as it is especially given how much they hue to

Alexthe movie in a lot of ways okay well i i want you to to go on that rant because i mean the the one thing that this also makes it feel like a real documentary is it returning to um a one of the love stories that uh and you know there's oh my god yes oh my god how sweet is that it's such a

Merlinwholesome movie too i i know well and like and we were watching again we watched this show like this is this is taken over we still love community but this is really taken over community and sunny as the like, this is my kid's default show and it might as well be my default show. And so we just go barrel through five a night. But I just said to her last night, I said, this show is so pure. Like for being a show about blood. But look, there's that one shot of when Taika Waititi,

he bites the woman. He's very carefully, like daintily prepared her.

AlexHe's put down the towels.

MerlinHe bites her and he accidentally hits an artery. And I think he very consciously is trying to look like a dog trying to drink out of a high pressure hose.

AlexOh, my God.

MerlinIf you've ever seen a dog try to drink out of a hose that's going wild, that's exactly what Taika Waititi looks like. Except he's this very foppish, dandy vampire looking like a thirsty terrier.

AlexI mean, God.

MerlinIn an artery. I.

AlexOh, God. This movie could have been made in so many ways that would have just been, I'm sure people would have liked it. But I, I mean, I knew I would like it because Taika Waititi. Taika Waititi.

MerlinHe's a cool guy. You think you're a cool guy, really cool guy.

AlexStu's all right. Oh, my God. It just, I stopped. I did not stop laughing. like for the I know until but like in the way

Merlinthat they used I mean it's just such a flex to be able to do what they're doing with those effects to such effect the first time he goes into Vlada he opens Vlada's door and it looks like the room is on its side like Vlada's love is in bed like with his minions and like roses or something like that and it looks like he's like 20 feet away the door closes the door he opens and he's right there and you're like ah I mean even the most basic kind of uh texas switch ish things are so effective i mean the the effects all really add to

Alexhow goddamn funny what's happening is and i was this is another like mockumentary or um like a horror type uh found footage thing is like oh it conveniently cuts away when you can't see something and sure this this does that but you don't really notice i i watched it twice and it doesn't like did you watch the movie twice yes yes and the i mean blair witch and uh what was it um cloverfield like were notoriously obnoxious about this like

oh can't see it cloverfield the jj abrams jittery one yes yes not cloverfield 12 which is awesome in my opinion the john goodman one which is cloverfield lane maybe okay yeah with uh with

Merlinthe lady from Sky Pilgrim.

AlexMary Elizabeth Winstead. Oh, I don't...

MerlinShe's the one he keeps in a room?

AlexYeah, in the basement. That is also... It's Wonderfield.

MerlinJohn Goodman is very good in that.

AlexEverybody is just like... That's another one.

MerlinWho's the dude in that movie?

AlexI just know that Dan Trachtenberg directed it. Yeah, it's Cloverfield Lane.

MerlinI love that feeling of like, could this just be, almost like Kimmy Schmidt, where like, could this be a thing where she just walks out? You know, I often think about like, if I did get like thrown into some kind of like, you know, a Belarus jail, would I try every, like look at every bar, feel everyone, you know what I mean? Like would I check every doorknob every day all the time? Like would I just not realize for 20 years I could have just walked out? You know what I mean? And like, I love that aspect of a movie like that. Or like I say, like Kimmy Schmidt of like, could they just walk out in a way that they don't understand?

You know, what if they go outside? Are they going to die? I'd love that kind of lost shit personally.

AlexI don't want to spoil it. But basically the movie being like, is it this? Is it this? Or is it both?

MerlinYeah. Yeah. Right. Well, yeah. The premise is.

AlexIt's like a Kobe ball. Yeah.

MerlinIt's not that he kidnapped her to save her. The only place that's safe now is exactly the like room he's got her locked in.

AlexGod. Anyway. Movies are good. Hot take.

MerlinMovies are good. I'm glad you watched it twice and liked it.

AlexI want to hear about your office takes versus your vampire takes.

MerlinWell, I don't mean, I don't, I just, you know, as I've, as I've gotten, I guess, older, as I've gotten hopefully less churlish, like I appreciate how difficult it is to make things. there's a i've made some things and some of them were not difficult and others were and there's stuff i didn't make or couldn't make or wouldn't or hadn't made because it's hard making stuff is hard and like even if even it's like who who has it easy in the world of making stuff almost nobody

you know people who start out real scrappy you take like the whole like what the bit for like five years on Spike Lee, really up to even, I want to say, up to just before I do the right thing when it was like, you know, she's got to have it or whatever school days. The whole bit was like, like he was one of those. He put all the expenses onto credit cards or like Soderbergh, all these people who were working on a shoestring and now Soderbergh's trying an entire like fourth career is like,

oh, I made five movies this week. Like one of them, you know, I just drew on my hand and animated it. Like he does so much crazy shit with all these different ways that you can make a movie or market a movie. But, you know, it's always been like the big system and like you got to fight that. And I don't know. Making things is hard is all I'm saying.

AlexIt is, I would argue, harder than never to. Not going to talk about Substack. Not going to do it. Sorry.

MerlinGo ahead. Well, what about here's one way. Here's one way to put it. Well, when you think about people who are pros or where you see expertise.

AlexWell, and that's the thing, though, is pro as in literally professional making money or pro like that's where I was going to say was that like it was a phrase that we use about people like that.

MerlinLike that could be what Simone Biles. That could be, I mean, just anybody who's like a, like seen as somebody at the top of their game game, who also has a lot of grace in the way that they do what they do and carry themselves. And there's a phrase we've used that we all use, which is, wow, they make it look easy. Right. So when Simone Biles does this physically impossible thing, you're like, and she makes it look easy. Like, and she's like, she's so charming. And like, there's, there's, there's just people out there. And you know, Some of the ones, especially in sports, that become big stars.

But, you know, again, let's come back to Robert Downey Jr. in Tropic Thunder. And I really don't want to spoil that except to once again say, stop listening to your friends that imagine they've seen it and think it's racist. It's one of the great movies. Please watch it.

AlexIt almost made me cry. Like, oh, my God.

MerlinOh, yeah. But, like, yeah. And, I mean, the whole thing with it's like all the times that we say, oh, we don't say that anymore. You're not allowed to say that anymore. But what if you say that to show that this person is so stupid that it's causing you physical pain? But then what if they pick that back up, not as a porky stick your dick in a whole joke, but as a like the entire movie just changed velocity and valence because of that person's use of the R word in a way that it's just I don't know.

It's so incredibly successful. but one of the things it's most successful at and i don't want to spoil this but if you haven't seen tropic thunder please consider watching it but the layers that are involved with robert downey jr's performance in that movie that movie where he's just quote unquote in blackface i mean fuck me like you've got to be kidding me by the time you do you remember remember what happens in the third act what we discover in the third act of that movie and you're like wait a minute so i'm just

to say this robert downey is a method actor who gets very into his character um and he will go to great lengths in a very comical way the entire movie if you had to do the pitch for this it's like what if hollywood was as venal and self-involved as you thought like but times 10 what if what if all of the fake sincerity of hollywood was way worse than you ever imagined on every level how would that completely literally blow up and fall apart um but he's this method actor and he puts in this really amazing role

at somebody who's a method actor. And I will only say, but what if he was a method actor inside of a method actor inside of a method actor? And it really actually works. And then I turned to my kid and I said, but on top of it all, that's Robert Downey Jr. in addition to all of that. Do you know what I mean? He is an actor who loves making fun of the callowness of actors. His remarks about that movie are very, very funny.

AlexYes.

MerlinBut you know what I'm saying? So on top of all of that, but Robert Downey Jr. had to do that. He had to do all the layers of actor, being an actor, being an actor. He had to do all of that. Or for example, like this week, I mentioned this on the internet, but there's an actress on Curb Your Enthusiasm this season who's just amazing. She's so funny. It's basically almost become her show. This teenage, or teenage-ish, maybe 20-ish, yeah, Mexican-American girl. Long story short, Larry fucks up, and he ends up having to be very involved

in dealing with this young woman. And she is so funny. And the whole bit is we cannot put her in this show because she is the worst actress that has ever acted. And it's so fucking funny. We're only up to episode three, so you still got plenty of time to jump in. It's not a super hard arc. It's not like the redoing Seinfeld season. It's not like the producer season. It's a more gentle arc. But it's very funny. And this woman is so good at doing bad acting, but not looking like she's doing bad acting. She really inhabits the bad actress that she is in a way that is so admirable.

And it takes a minute for you to stop and go, that's really hard. She's got to show up. I mean, who knows where she is on the fucking call list. She's got to show up. She's got to be there probably 6 a.m. There's makeup. There's wardrobe. There's like, oh, we can't get the light on this. You know, all the stuff that you never see on the screen, right? It's all so fucking hard if everything worked perfectly. So let's go back to Spike Lee. Okay, you know, your budget for this is $3,000. Oh, my God, I wish we had more money so we could do reshoots and be the bleep. And then a few years later, you go like, oh, man, now I'm making medium-sized movies and I miss those raw days.

We could still use more money. And then you become super successful and you're like, oh, now the studio owns me and tells me what to do. I really miss the days of when I made medium-sized. It's difficult for everybody. Making something good is hard for everybody. but one place that is so difficult because this is where you really get to what a director is to me like as my understanding that a producer is the director is seen as sort of the king or queen of the movie the producer is the person who handles a lot of them the money stuff and the operational stuff and i know there's tons of overlap but ideally a director can be or a showrunner can

be the creative czar of the movie, the taste czar, the tiebreaker, Dirt Bike Benny, all those things, right?

AlexWe should have Adam, Mr. Sandwich on here. I know he's a very busy man, but yeah.

MerlinYou know what's hard to get is tone.

AlexYes.

MerlinTone is so much harder, but that is the crystallization of what it means to be a director. So yeah, sometimes you're a director who's got to do, like, what can we do with what second unit did? Sometimes you're a director that says, like, okay, well, how did those effects turn out? Do we have the budget to redo that in a way? Because I misunderstood what I thought we were asking for. Whatever it is. But like, ultimately, what do you get all that? If it's successful, you get tone. You get the feeling of this movie. Like a Stanley Kubrick movie feels like a Stanley Kubrick movie because in some ways, he really is a master of tone.

And when people don't get tone, right, you get faithful findings.

AlexAnd you get something that feels really weird.

Merlinand like, do you not know the 180 rule? And like, shirts don't make a sound like that when they hit the floor. There's just so much stuff where you're like, when you go and watch Faithful Findings, which I recommend, and B, listen to the Flophouse episode on Faithful Findings, you forget how much you don't realize you know about how movies get made until you watch a movie where you're like, how did someone make this movie? I don't even understand how they were like, he's passed out on the keyboard and still trying to drink the coffee. And it's like, what is, the tone's all wrong. And then you laugh and it becomes jarring,

not just because this shot has an air conditioning noise and the 180 shot doesn't have an air conditioning noise. That's very jarring and takes you out of the tone. Alex, how did they get the tone in this movie so well? Because isn't it hard? You're in makeup. You got effects. You've got to like, you're running it while you're in it as an actor, as talent.

AlexYes, yep. That is just insanely difficult from like everybody I've heard.

MerlinThe shot in the hallway where they're trying on outfits. Of course, they're vampires, so they can't be seen and reflective. So they have to draw each other to show each other.

AlexIt's a close cuff.

MerlinOh, my God. I love when Deacon holds up the trailer.

AlexYeah. Oh, my God. It's so good.

MerlinBut like that scene, and I said that, Matt, I wonder if this was fun to do. Because on the one hand, I could see that this would be very fun. But it also looks like a lot of work. That is a lot of costume changes. in a dark room in somewhere in probably Atlanta, I think. But it's a lot of work. Tone.

AlexMaking things is hard. Well, I think that is a part of being a good producer. And that term is thrown around often to, you know, make some actors happy or to, you know, help somebody get more money and whatever. Which word term? Producer. Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. The idea –

MerlinExecutive producer means you paid for it, right?

AlexThat's more of executive.

MerlinYou paid for it and profit from it?

AlexExecutive producer in terms of Hollywood.

MerlinSo like if it's the third movie, like Elizabeth Banks, executive producer. Well, she directs the third Pitch Perfect. I think she must have executive produced it. That's an unusual one where like Steven Spielberg would be like a director and an executive producer. You put up the money, you make the money when you're an executive producer, right?

AlexTypically. But it's kind of this free floating thing. Like in radio, producer also kind of means the editor. Yeah, exactly. And the editor is like what you would be considered both a sound mixer and sound designer on a movie. So it's like it's all like a big jumble. But being a producer for in terms of like film and indie films and documentaries is like, OK, how do we the director has so many jobs.

We need to make sure through all of the logistics, because, you know, how horny I am through logistics, we need to make sure that this tone is maintained and still possible.

MerlinLike having touches every single job. One of those people unintentionally gets it way wrong. I mean, well, continuity is that script supervisor?

AlexOr line producer. It depends, yeah.

MerlinBut, like, that's, I mean, that boy, what a job that would be. But, like, the Polaroid of how we did the makeup this particular day.

AlexIt's not a fun job.

MerlinIt sounds like a really detailed, the ultimate detail-oriented job. But, like, also stuff like thinking about the location scout. And then on top of everything, you have the scheduling of, like, we, you know, for some of these things that are going to be, you know, we're going to need lights and a camera and the actual talent. This needs to happen in a certain order. And this is, once again, this is why I say that Apocalypse Now is a good movie, but Hearts of Darkness is the masterpiece.

AlexI have never seen that. Okay, I'm putting it.

MerlinLet's put it in the sheet, please.

AlexYep, right, right.

MerlinBut, you know, if you find out you've got Marlon Brando for this many days, and you hope that he's going to show up ready. But if you've got Marlon Brando for this many days, let's say we've got Marlon Brando starting on arbitrarily May 1st, right? If you're running behind even like in mid-March and you are enough of a producer slash project manager to know how lateness creates more lateness, lateness does not create being on time. Like if you start with a deficit, that tends to get worse. That's entropy in life.

So what do you do? Now do you go to the producer and say, please go negotiate with Mr. Marlon Brando about starting later? Like, you know what I mean? If you've rented helicopters from the Philippine army, like there's a lot that needs to go right about that for you to hit your mark, as they say.

AlexAnd a lot of your job is making sure that other people don't need to think about anything except their very specific job. That is also hard because it's not just, OK, how is.

MerlinYou shouldn't have to worry if a gun is loaded.

AlexOh, God. But you're correct.

MerlinI mean, like the best example being, you know, when Sir Ian shows up, it's very important that he not have to fret about whether that's about his sandwiches or his wig or his footwear or, you know, his marker, his lighters, whatever. Right. Your job is to make the talent be able to walk up and do their best job. But that also means like, right, the rest of your crew, you've got to help everybody do their best job in lots of different things. And if the catering doesn't show up that day, that affects a lot of people.

AlexAnd you need to figure out what intern you can send to get snacks because some interns are – turns out too young to rent a car. Oh, and then you go over budget because you need to take a cab or a Lyft.

MerlinI mean Game of Thrones had a Starbucks cup in a shot.

AlexAnd everybody laughed, right? Everybody laughed.

MerlinDo you know how fucking hard it is to like not have – I mean I don't know. I mean I roll my eyes at that a little bit. I realized we had fun with that. But that's just another example of even when you're playing at that level or maybe especially when you're playing at that level, stuff gets really amplified. My kid has the gift, as we call it. She can see shadows and booms in frame. She's really good and we yell it out because that's a thing our family does. But all of that is really, really difficult. And if you didn't get it on the day, what do you do?

You send a second in and out with your giant budget to reshoot all this stuff with this person seen from the back? How do you fix all of that? Did you have coverage for that? You can hear me getting agitated just thinking about that. And then on top of it all, being able to show up and have it go right, get the shot, and then you're just like, how do I love these fictional multi-century old vampires so fucking much? What magic went into getting to where I could love these vampires so much?

AlexI mean, I can I keep going back to documentaries, not because this is, you know, a fake documentary, but that's that's your wheelhouse. Yeah, yeah. And you need to love your subject or be interested enough in your subject to make, obviously, to make your audience love it or be interested in it enough. And on top of that, they are, you know, they are Taika Waititi is just he is playing that he is directing the movie and he needs to convince you.

He's also basically playing the director of a documentary and then the director of a fake documentary. Like, God, the layers involved in this. And on what I not a shoestring budget, but still.

MerlinI don't know how you do it without losing your mind.

AlexI mean, you do, basically. Then you need to lock yourself in a hotel room in New Zealand for a month, and you end up loving it, even though it's part of a pandemic lockdown. It's a living. Yeah, that's fun for a take.

But, man, man, what a good, well, okay. Isn't that a feel-good movie?

MerlinIt's a feel-good movie. It's one of those movies where, how can I put this? I'm not a big fan of just having shit on in the background. I mean, unlike a lot of my friends, I will do that with music or podcasts sometimes. But I generally, especially at night, Brady's Bits, when I come home at 4 or 5, I have to really be mindful about not being a homemade asshole. Because my attention is for Raid. My wife, whom I love, very much tends to do a data dump when I arrive at home.

And I've just had to get through the kill zone. I've got a 20-pound backpack. I've got a bag of ice. I've got the mail. I've got three Amazon deliveries and I've got the laundry and I have to get through the kill zone and up two flights of stairs. I still have my backpack on and I get the data dump and I do this, you know, that phrase, you know, if the Simpsons don't make me tap the sign, I have to tap my backpack. I just barely fit into our house just now. Can I just have a few minutes to be home for a minute? Cause my attention is frayed. And I just walked up a very steep hill and two flights of stairs with everything I own. I'm like Heidi,

like going up the hill with all my clothes on. and it's like i i just i need a minute before you ask me about dinner like you know i love you

Alexwe have a rule like in in our home to like hey can i decontamination zone let me get the world off me basically and metal asks like uh okay can i uh dump at you or can i can i dump on you that's our new um that's not even a joke he says it in german right i mean he takes out his whip um but But the, yeah, it's like, okay, can I talk at you? I'm like, nope. And I, like the hosts of Cortex, I often go and I'm like, hey, I'm going into airplane mode.

And we literally say, like, bye to each other. Like, as if we were leaving the house because we have a very small apartment. And it's, I don't know.

MerlinEspecially when people are mostly, you know, working at home. And like, you know, you know me. I've been trying to sleep a little bit later, which is disruptive because I go to sleep in a bedroom and wake up in an office.

AlexYes. Yeah. You know what I mean?

MerlinAnd like I snore. So like last week, I've only had this only happened once so far. But Matt had to actually come over and like shake me awake and go like, I'm muted. I have to be on a call right now. I was like, oh, I was. Yes. Very loud.

AlexYes. Maddie often sleeps in our living room on the couch because it's just easier that way.

MerlinYou know, Matt and I should split a CPAP.

AlexOh, yeah, just mail.

MerlinI'll clean it first, probably.

AlexGod, it's... God. Oh my god.

MerlinUm. Difficult. Difficult to do. Anyway.

AlexWhat is your beef with the office? Rare? Okay, go. No, no, no.

MerlinI'll do that. All I was going to say is it's rare. It's rare for this to be a – I've heard people say stuff like – I feel like I've heard Tiff say this in particular, like the stuff that Tiff will have on in the background, like working on one of my – maybe this is a fantasy of mine. I'm not sure. I imagine Tiff doing like crafts, photo things, playing with Adam, whatever, and like have stuff on in the background, right? I think Tiff in particular has talked about this. And for some people, that's law and order. I can definitely have a law and order on in the background. I'm given to believe that this may be why HGTV exists full stop.

There are a handful of incredibly sad people who put all of their attention into whatever's happening with the Canadian brothers or whatever. But some you have on the background. Now, I think this is one of those movies, maybe like Scott Pilgrim, I'm going to say, where like I can pay a thousand percent of my attention to this and it's utterly rewarded. or I can just kind of have it on or I can walk in and out because the movie in general makes me happy. The various scenes make me happy. And when something starts happening that I forgot I love

this much, it makes me triple happy. So that's a success for me. TV show? That's good. That's good. Oh, okay. Okay. Here's the problem. Okay. Okay. Okay. Now you understand I love The Office, the American office.

In the lounge, or as you said, the family room, right now, literally, on the wall, is a giant banner that says, It is your birthday. Because for the month of October, we put up the banner from the office that we bought that says, It is your birthday. As you see, my daughter has a Dunder Mifflin sticker on her door, has a threat-level midnight blanket.

I have on my desk here, I have a Stanley holding a crossword puzzle. Like, I love The Office.

AlexYou're doing a thing. You don't need to. You're doing the thing.

MerlinWell, but I think, no, normally, thank you for pointing that out, literally, because I think that's a thing I do need to work on. But in this case, I'm doing it for a reason, which is to say, therefore, would it surprise you to know that when I watched S1E1 of The Office US, I might have turned it off after a few minutes. It was so fucking bad. Why? Because I was so in the bag for the whatever, like six total hours of The Office UK.

I mean, I was one of those people, like where I was so into The Office and there's so many things in our household vernacular that come from The Office. There's like expressions, like just Ricky Gervais expressions. type up your CV. There's, you know, a bit of Bree, like, you know, means you're minge. Like, I can't even tell you, Hat FM, what happens, you shit the bed. Like, there's so many lines and things. Oh, oh, the biggest one of all,

I don't know if you remember when the guy's trying to conduct the seminar on, like, you know, sensitivity, and Ricky Gervais brings in his guitar and starts singing songs, you know? And then he goes, and now you're all colorblind. There's a silence. And then he goes, racial.

And like, that's still a constant line in our house. I love the American office. I love the UK office. I now know from a lot of reading, a number of podcasts, that there is a reason they basically recreated the first episode of the UK office.

I mean, you've seen both, right?

AlexBut definitely not as many times. I mean, I was that person who had watched the UK office like five times and then was like, it's really mean. It's really, really mean.

MerlinOh, it is. But like Garrett, just Garrett, you forgot how good Garrett is. Yes, I know you've seen him in The Detectorist. Yes, I know you've seen him in Pirates of the Caribbean. To go back and see Garrett with that terrible haircut and the dark lines under his eyes talking about his stapler being in a jelly. he's so goddamn funny. It's territorial army, the whole thing. So what do they do? They bring it to America. And again, you know, I will give you permission, as I gave myself permission, to listen to exactly one Spotify podcast. And that's the guy who plays Kevin, hosting basically the oral history of The Office.

And it's extremely good. Little bit hagiographic, which is a documentary thing, but it's really, really good. You'll learn a lot about these people. And Greg Daniels, I guess, you know, long story short, he got the rights to this. So here's what we're going to do. were going to essentially recreate the first episode of the British office. And you know, amongst many things they didn't get... First of all, imagine being like Jim and Pam or anybody in that show. And you show up, and I don't think it was the first one they shot. I think it was the first one they aired. But your introduction to America

is like, oh, they made... Garrett is now the Thermian guy from... You know, oh, what's that movie I love? What's it called? The Thermians.

Alexwhat's it called Space Force

MerlinStar Boy

Alexor Jim

MerlinTim is now this handsome guy Jim they made everybody skinny muscular and pretty mostly and you're telling me David Brent is now Steve Carell okay that's all pretty weird hey you should come and meet these characters they're basically the same characters from this better show hope you love them I was so god damn mad now I have to correct myself because I remember the first season being bad no

did you know the second episode Larry Wilmore I think written and directed episode is not ethics but the racial one where they have to put the cards on their head

Alexdiversity day is the

Merlinsecond episode of that show

AlexI know it immediately produced

Merlinone of the best episodes of the whole series but I imprinted on the shittiness of the first episode because you know what they didn't get amongst other things alex

Alexthe tone yeah no tone no tone no and i it was also the it was when the um ipod video came out

Merlinand it was that's included in the podcast oh it was featured oh yeah they talked oh this is oh god you should listen to this it's on spotify but you can probably steal it too um the um so so basically this crazy confluence of events, at least in the way the story is told, happened, which is that the whole, if you had to summarize basically the quote-unquote oral history of the office, it's like it never should have been successful. It was constantly on the verge. Even when it was succeeding, it was on the verge of cancellation all, all, all, all the time.

And if it weren't for some real, you know, people standing up for them inside NBC, it never would have happened or never would have gotten

Alexrenewed. Yeah, they'd have called in a lot of favors to keep that. Yeah, and there's like,

Merlinsupposedly this one guy that was kind of their champion. But anyhow, so yeah, the video iPod came out. There's an episode, the Christmas episode with the video iPod. But also, yeah, like you said, when they started selling TV shows on iTunes, because again, think about, we're talking about a pretty long time ago where we're still mostly thinking about Nielsen ratings, right? And they were not doing great in the Nielsen ratings. But as soon as people could buy it on the iTunes store, isn't this the story? Like people started buying the show. It was suddenly successful. It was like one of the first successful TV shows on the iTunes store.

AlexI remember watching the first episode and thinking, like on TV.

MerlinI bought Psych. I have a very specific recollection of watching Psych on my video iPod in Roderick's mother's guest room. Because I brought – yes, I did bring the RCA cables.

AlexI thought it would be a normal thing.

MerlinAnd I was like, I thought it was just the novelty of watching a TV show.

AlexLike, ooh, I feel weird. No, I mean, having, well, but yeah, I think then the first, like, maybe it was the whole first season of The Office. I don't remember. But it was, it was Diversity Day was included in the like, hey, it's free. Like here, it's free on the iTunes store. And that's when I was like, oh, hello. because, you know, I was, like I am now, very thirsty for anything free in Apple. And that's when I'm like, okay, this is a different show now.

And even by the end of that season, Michael's hair is different.

MerlinWell, yeah. You know what? I will put it in notes. This Spotify podcast is so good. And who knows how much of it is exactly true, but they talk to everybody, including my boyfriend, Mike Schur, of course. but like they're talking about like how basically he had gone off to do the 40 year old version they were like they were pretty much definitely cancelled I think they give them 6 episodes for season 1 something like that the 40 year old version suddenly like was incredibly successful Steve had to get Steve Carell I call him Steve had to get ripped

and like a little bit more like you know that movie has not aged very well not just the problematic stuff it's just not that funny that's fine but it's got Catherine Keener so but anyhow and so I think several things happened it did not ensure the success of the show but one of the things that happened was okay now everybody knows who Steve Carell is and maybe they'll become aware of this show like he's you know getting nominated for awards things and etc and then so season two a few things happened they said look one thing you know we've got to do something about that

hair we're going to make him look a little nicer but the book or the bible on this became look he can't be terrible and stupid and incompetent and still be the boss. And so then the mandate came down for the writers that there has to be at least one scene in an episode where something is redeemed about him. We see him to be competent. We see him to be more kind or, you know, human than we thought. And look at something like Office Olympics.

Who doesn't want to cry at the end of Office Olympics? It's such a funny episode. It's the one where with the house and Dwight goes with him and talks about how thin the walls are and he's really regretting buying this house. And then they've been having Office Olympics all day and they're doing the medal ceremony.

AlexDo you remember this? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

MerlinThey play Flerkin or whatever and then they're up there and he invites Michael out to come stand on the podium and receive his medal. For what? Because you bought a house. Wait, why are you playing the national anthem? Because this is America. And then the beauty part is then all the tiny little doves on paper clips go by. Oh, my God. And they nailed it because they figured it out. Like, oh, this is what the show wanted to be. What the show wanted to be is like Michael's still a doofus, but and he can be.

It's not like he's less like terrible. He still does terrible stuff.

AlexYeah, but he's no Nick Brent. Like, it's just I. Wow, I can't believe I'm going to say this. It is it becomes a very American show in a good like it becomes a good American sitcom. It couldn't have been.

MerlinWell, let me ask you this. There's a there's a movie that came out, a movie from New Zealand. I think it was 2014 called What We Do in the Shadows. And I had this idea for a TV show that I wanted to tell you about. I mean, if you only have a second, if you're only going down one floor, it's basically just if we turn the movie into a TV show. OK, so I mean, OK, well, let me explain a little bit more. There's some vampires who are crazy horny, and they live together, and they have all the problems that roommates have. Sounds pretty good so far, right?

Mm-hmm.

AlexMm-hmm.

MerlinLike, what if they have to do stuff like deal with how things are accomplished around the house?

AlexMaybe they have a chore wheel. Yeah.

MerlinWhat if they have to go to town and get dressed up to go out? Okay, hang on. Let me do another one. All right. what if sometimes they have fights and fly around. Okay, hang on, wait a minute. What if they have to deal with people out the way, hang on, wait a minute. It's basically, if I described it to you, you would go, well, that's the movie. Why do you need three seasons of the movie? And it's like, well, it's the movie, but it's

not the movie. Because imagine that they realized, before they ever started shooting that Jim is and should be very different from Tim. Like, imagine if they figured out Leslie Knope in the first episode instead of the second

Alexor third season. Oh, God. Right?

MerlinImagine if they went in and you went like, oh, wait a minute, you're not just copying. This is not just a copy of Taika Waititi. These are all new characters. And isn't it amazing that that template could be almost identical? The only real addition, and I'm going to say as little as possible about this because there is a very unusual vampire roommate and there is now a familiar. Remember like the woman who helps Deacon?

AlexNow he's my servant.

MerlinMaybe, yeah, also maybe a dude.

AlexSo one of each. And a dentist.

MerlinAnd what if Beanie Feldstein is a LARPer who's pretty definitely a virgin? But anyway, we'll get to that.

AlexBeanie. Oh. Well, well, well.

MerlinAnd that's why I wanted to talk about The Office and get the hate mail and why I felt the need to state my office bona fides. And I'm sorry I made this 20 minutes longer than it needed to be. But if you enjoy this stuff, you can go and you can rewatch it and you can enjoy it on any level you want. You're going to love this TV show. Same theme song, same opening, basically. It's got these amazing people in these amazing roles. And from the go, you're going to turn this fucking thing on. You're going to open up Hulu, turn this thing on and go oh there it is i already get it i already get it you know what i'm saying

and it's not a copy it's it's in staten island it's not even in wellington i mean that's the

Alexthing it's it's different i'm trying to think of um well this is oh cat fit i mean talk about contempt part of the reason i went into making documentaries because i got saw catfish and got so mad about how dumb it was oh catfish is that a documentary about catfish yeah uh yeah that is where the term comes from is oh shit really yeah the original um i thought it was a tv show it is now and it's shitty that's the thing they're like well oh let's capitalize on this yeah sometimes

Merlinit's not difficult to know if something's not for me and anything called catfish is probably not for

Alexno no and the documentary interesting you got mad at it it tries to be so profound and like um it basically tries to say oh as in like really makes you think yeah it basically it tries to be like oh i didn't know that i was being uh like deceived let me clearly like it's i often say again and again a lot of documentaries are made up of are made up of a tiny kind of little lies or um you know just uh different perceptions of things but they all tell a capital t truth and

that is not how catfish went down the the original movie which was came out in like god 2010 i don't know i inspired you to go to art school the uh i oh no well yeah that um that is true i i tweeted about that uh no that's yes but that's what made me want to do documentaries i know that's what

Merlini didn't know that and now i know that you're at a relative's house staring at the wall and i

Alexinspired you. Yeah, it was, oh, that was a big old dark

Merlinnight of a soul. Are you just making shit up, Alex? No, no, no. Are you trying to hurt me?

AlexIt was at the college, it was College of DuPage that made me want to be like, I know that I can make documentaries better and more honest than this. And that's when you

Merlinwent to Kevin Budnick U.

AlexNo, no. Well, no, no, no. Then I was like, oh, I'm gonna go to DePaul because it's basically like Marquette, but it's in the city, so I'll be everything sounds so catholic but uh yeah but then no i was i spent the summer working a well i basically spent a semester uh doing online uh community college because i was like oh i don't even need to be here and i can just phone this in and i was lucky enough to basically like crash

Merlindid you feel like a waste of time waste of money what is it that made you think it wasn't for you

Alexlike you just realized you wanted to go in a different direction oh it was well i got kind of kicked out of, well, I've told this story before, but I kind of, I both got like kicked out and dropped out at the same time at Marquette, my real school where I had my nice scholarship and stuff. And then I was like, I knew, I knew I wanted to make, I wanted to make nonfiction. That is what I knew. And so I was like, I'm just going to go to, to make my parents happy. I am

going to do a semester at the college of dupage and then i realized oh i don't really need to i can basically phone all this in and get like my mat i'd like finish up getting um my like three credits i need so i'd never have to do uh classes i don't want to do when i go when i do whatever um and i was going to go to um de paul which is a school here that's also catholic but it's more progressive and like you're allowed to be you were even allowed to be gay in like 2010 there and uh then i know i know right um you you weren't um hate crimed and it was nice you weren't

disappeared yeah but then um i ended up spending all of my time at columbia which is a little bit of a it's an art school that unless you know exactly what you want to do it's not necessarily a it's called it's called columbia college of chicago it's not the good one it's one of the things where you go to school is it more like vocational like no it is not like fulbright or thing yeah whenever someone asked me to write them a uh recommendation to like a um of like

it's a vocational school but for art school and like they want to be a director but it's like no that they're just gonna teach you how to be a grip which is fine but like no and anyway i spent all of my time there and hanging out with those people and i'm like okay depaul has a great film program but they do not have a good non-fiction they they don't make documentaries and they don't like there's non the non-fiction stuff is like scattered over various different like um you know

colleges that are part of the university you know how that like works um you mean colleges like like

MerlinOxford University has colleges inside of it, that thing? Right. There's like

AlexCollege of Communications or Sure. That's where New College got its name

Merlinis New College is a college inside of Oxford.

AlexOh, really? Oh, yeah, yeah.

MerlinI have to say not the good one also.

AlexYeah. I didn't even realize there was a new school in the in New York. Well, anyway, and then I was like the stupid of episode seven and episode that the episode three, the third error or no, second error. I think seven's a

Merlinlittle bit overrated i i like i like chicken bite chicken bites on the bus driver the um well i mean

Alexseven is vocational wheel right yeah and and uh it was just listen to richard a the oh god yeah i just it was one of there was a another program on i think on a similar uh the same network called i think it was um um quit and i was like well this this doesn't work i'm i'm i'm 19 this doesn't work I'm like I okay um and and uh yeah I was like I will uh the vocational me was like well that's fine for Merlin but uh it needs to be fine for more people or you lose your mind I'm like well

my mind's already gone so fine I will I know that I know nearly exactly what I want to do and I went to the place where we learned about how hard making non-fiction documentary films and podcasts, which were called audio documentaries, and nonfiction writing. It was like the whole bit.

I don't even remember where the... Oh, you just asked why I decided to go to art school. Yeah, yeah, that was...

MerlinWell, I think it started with you being frustrated with the movie Catfish.

AlexYeah, yeah, that's when I... Well, it was as I had decided to go to the artsy art school, but then apply specifically to the, you know, it's like, okay, you've gotten in. Basically, everybody got in. And then it was like, all right, you choose your program. And then I saw Catfish and like the fury around. I'm like, this is so dishonest. This will not stand? Yes. It was like, oh, I'm like, they got the wrong guy.

MerlinOh, you did a Walter Isaacson book on him?

AlexIt was basically that. I'm like, no, this is not. This is a story about.

MerlinThat's another show on 5x5.

AlexYeah.

MerlinI do know you hit Marco and Gruber. We'll be good.

AlexBut it was, yeah, I was like listening back to work. And I'm like, oh, boy. Okay.

MerlinI did not mean to make that. Hey, will you check out the TV show? Will you check out the TV show?

AlexOf course. Yeah, of course I was going to.

MerlinI'm trying to avoid because if you wanted to follow up on that after you've watched, you're going to blast through a lot of season one quickly. And if you would like to talk about here, I would be very happy to talk to you about it.

AlexYes.

MerlinI want and I'm excited about continuity and the the the actors the actors and the characters on

Alexthis show are special they're so they're oh god when they're on the hill talking and watching people die how do we end it how do we end this oh um um we can talk about my nfc I think

Merlinwe've talked enough unified oh unified field theory of space okay are will this be covered

AlexI don't

Merlinit can be covered whatever you want but imagine this do you know my phrase active working area

Alexyes yes like a mise en place yeah

Merlinwhat if active working area just represented one of five possible kinds of areas what if I had delineated the space of all houses into an array of five areas what if I figured out space Alex

Alexlike a I have a multiverse of okay yeah I don't know

MerlinI don't know I haven't talked about it yet

Alexoh we should get out of here before I talk about Austin College and then the baby Nazi and the,

MerlinAustin College is the one where they're going to, they're going to, it's going to be the truth college,

Alexright? The truth college. And what's their mascot,

MerlinAlex?

AlexDo you have a mascot? I don't know. Arthur Brooks smiling and telling everybody be nice. I don't know.

MerlinOh man.

AlexAll right.

MerlinThanks everybody for listening.

AlexI was right. I was right. I was right. I was right. I was right. I like to bite a pencil. The truth will prevail. Oh, if it's good enough for Elon Musk and Joe Rogan, it's good enough for us.

263. The Curse of the Dumb Nerd

Show notes

Transcript

263. The Curse of the Dumb Nerd

Show notes

Transcript

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