129. The Right Amount of Horny

AlexThis is Do By Friday, a weekly challenge podcast with Merlin Mann, Alex Cox, and Max Devkin. This week's challenge, stop cursing.

MerlinWow, wow, wow. Hello! Whoa, that was a big sigh. You do that sometimes.

AlexWhat's wow?

MerlinSorry, got scum.

AlexGood morning.

MerlinGood morning. Sometimes Max does this just basically existential sigh.

AlexThat happens a lot.

MerlinWell, what happens is, here's why I noticed, because usually it's when he's done popping off and has to wait to talk again. He goes, like there's some Kierkegaardian beast inside of him that just needs to vent for a minute. He goes, ah. And this week it opened with that.

MaxMerlin, are you already watching I Think You Should Leave? Or is it still a couple of weeks before it's the only thing that you're quoting and thinking about and talking about on all of your podcasts?

MerlinProbably the second one.

MaxYeah. Okay.

MerlinYeah. You guys popped off on that last night. And I didn't know the way that Jen punctuated it was very confusing.

MaxIt just came out. It's my favorite comedy thing that's come out in some time. It is so fucking funny.

MerlinSorry, did I sigh?

AlexIs that your upset with millennials sigh? I can't tell.

MaxIt's so funny. It's so funny.

MerlinOkay. All right. I'll add it to the queue. And so what's it called? I'm mad at you now. What is it called?

MaxIt's called I Think You Should Leave with Kim Robinson. Kim Robinson. And you know who it's got? You know who it's got?

MerlinNo.

MaxIt's got Richard Splett. From Veep.

MerlinOh, I love him.

MaxAnd Connor O'Malley, the guy from Vine who yells at the cars. Oh, okay. All right.

MerlinCool, cool, cool, cool. Yeah. I love a splat. Love a splat. He's so funny.

MaxOh, he's so good. Let's look up.

MerlinI just think about him and laugh. All right.

MaxOkay. So, what's it called?

MerlinIt's time for you to go. What's it called?

MaxBest of Richard's splat. Best of splat. Wearing a splatter.

AlexOh. That's what his grandmother calls him. That was dumb.

MerlinI love when he announces something about his family and then suddenly realizes it's wrong.

Speaker AWhat do we do? We need to get a hold of our people in Nevada. Don't, don't. Nevada. The vast majority of Nevada voting is done by machine. Once the Nevada Secretary of State certifies a count, we'll then have 72 hours to request a recount. At that point, 5% of the precincts will be selected, and if there's a discrepancy of more than 1%, a full hand recount will be requested. I actually did my doctorate in recount procedures in the West. excellent work richard richard works for me you have a doctorate two uh constitutional law and veterinary medicine which was my fallback you were getting my coffee which is much harder because

you know you have so many different moods you know what they had

MerlinThey had the dumbest bit a couple episodes ago. It was such a stupid bit, but only Splett could pull it off. He kept looking at his phone to see the results for Jonah. He's like, oh, no, I read that. he turns his phone and is like oh no that wasn't right

Maxwe're way down she's my half sister he's so funny what a cast oh that cast yeah it's very funny this season

Alexit is a banger

MaxI really enjoyed the debate episode the one they had

Merlinwhere the cowboy keeps trying to talk he's like oh okay

Alexoh that was kind of hot honestly good for him hi we need to talk about your sexuality at some

Merlinmaybe maybe offline i'm so let me just be clear it doesn't it doesn't matter it doesn't matter to me what all the things you want to have fuck i don't know i don't understand what it well how's that a snack what are you talking about you you have you say so many things to me i mean you're like my new dan you say so many things to me that i fundamentally i try to square it with what i think i know about you and i'm gonna need like red yarn on the wall blah blah okay it's i don't

Alexknow what you're talking about first of all finding basic boys like cal newport attractive does not mean i'm the kind of person who would stand next to a lady at a buffet and just stare at her confused and then cut in front of her to take some some salad i don't think i'm that person I don't think that's fair. I just don't think that's fair.

MerlinNice pull.

AlexI had a, that was one of the times.

MerlinYou hit the trough when you go to the trough.

AlexYeah. Yeah. I'm not going to go to a trough at all, first of all.

MerlinOh, wings. Wings.

AlexSecond of all, I will take the bread now. Yeah. No, no, no, no. Okay.

MerlinSo Cal Newport is a snack. Yeah. Yes. But you have some concerns about how he regards his audience and that makes him less snackable.

AlexNo, no, no. No, no, no. No.

MerlinYou know what? You don't have to talk about it. This is none of my goddamn business, Alex. I'm just, at some point, I need to see some kind of a scattergraph just to help me just vaguely understand what the hell is going on with your libido.

AlexDon't you find some man handsome?

MerlinAnd I think you conflate computers. I think you conflate computers and sex, and it confuses me. And then you see an advice man, and you call him a snack.

AlexHe's just, have you seen him? Have you seen him recently?

MerlinHave I really, really seen him? No, I don't think I have.

AlexOkay, hold on. He has been like doing some CrossFit. Actually, that's quite a portion of his new book.

MerlinVery, very damn thing to do.

AlexYep. He talks about CrossFit.

MerlinIs that the thing where you swing the ropes around and watch a movie?

AlexYeah. And there's no music allowed. No talking allowed. They just like yell in unison at some point.

MerlinOh, I've got, believe me, I've gotten the CrossFit pitch.

AlexOh, okay. Okay.

MerlinI've met couples who met through CrossFit and boy, that's just, that's like logarithmically

Alexinsufferable. I can't imagine. It's bad. It's bad.

MerlinI thought I was bad with the Atkins diet. Oh, Jiminy Christmas. Actually, you'd have a lot more energy if you just mainlined some bacon. Oh, Cal Newport. You sent this to me in our super secret text channel, Cal Newport's Morning Routine, at mymorningroutine.com.

AlexSo bad.

MerlinOkay. Does he eat almonds?

AlexWhat does he do? He's so good, you can't ignore him is what he is.

MerlinOh, so good. Is that him?

AlexYes, that's him.

MerlinOkay, I was supposed to read that and didn't.

AlexOkay. You don't need to. Deep work is very much... Deep work. Yeah, he's deep work in something.

MerlinMax, Max, do you do deep work? Do you do deep work? I return no. Okay. Okay, do you answer your email first thing in the morning or leave it till later in the day?

MaxIs this the book, Deep Work, Rules for Focused Success in a Distracted World? Ooh, I have a reading recommendation for everyone.

AlexYes, please.

MerlinCan we put a fork in your sex, Alex? Yes, please. We'll do it in the after show.

MaxI want the book. I want the book. There's a new Cory Doctorow book called Radicalized. I don't know if you guys are fans of Cory's stuff. I think he is. I think Cory is one of these guys who he's living. He's living in like a pocket dimension where he's like eight years ahead of the rest of society.

AlexRight.

MaxAnd he's like he's kind of for me, at least he's kind of like the guy on like trend calling and stuff like that. He's way ahead of everyone else. And a lot of times I hear him talk about stuff and I'm like, who cares about this? But then he's always right. Like in eight years, I always care about what he's talking about. And I think his fiction is super interesting to me because it's definitely like idea fiction. Like he's, it's very, very political and very like big ideas. And it's sort of, sometimes I think it succeeds as novels and sometimes it doesn't. But this is four short stories.

There are sort of vignettes in this near future world. and the first one in particular is about a woman who hacks her toaster. Yes! And it's one of the most gripping, basically she has like a cloud toaster and it stops working one day and so she puts her own firmware on it and then it's everything that happens after that. And it's one of the most, it's just, it's like some of the most essential reading I could, it's just like, it's hard for me to put into words. I liked it so much

and I just felt like This is ahead of its time. And I definitely recommend that first novella in his new book, Radicalized. I think both of you guys would love it. It's very funny.

AlexLet's check it out. Bought it now with one click.

MaxThat's a good cover, too. It's called Unauthorized Bread.

AlexThe cover is really good, too.

MaxThat's super interesting.

AlexNow, I have a question.

MaxAre you guys going to go see the new Vengees? Yeah. When and how? What's the plan?

AlexI know I have to I'm gonna I'm I am going to be off the internet and seeing it on Sunday you're gonna go on Sunday yeah yeah I'm too I'm gonna try and go tomorrow good good luck uh I got a ticket oh good good good I got a ticket I got a good seat for like a one o'clock show tomorrow

Maxat the arc light nice so I'm just gonna leave work and go for four hours to see the Vengis

Alexgood good good good I can't I'm I'm I'm excited about it I am actually very excited about it too I think I got I didn't get a little bit spoiled but I got sort of the spoiled where somebody I really respect said some things and anyway the end don't you don't you giggle

MerlinI don't think you know

Speaker Awhat a spoiler is

Merlinyeah that's not spoiled

MaxMerlin you gonna see the new Vengees

MerlinI return nearly no

Speaker Ayou're not gonna see it I don't wanna get into it see I'm trying to be more positive about things

Merlinyou don't like those oh I'm excited I wanna have a mother that told me if you can't say anything nice don't say anything she never said that specifically

Maxyou don't like the Marvel movies anymore

Merlinsee you're interrogating me in my no I don't want to get involved I don't want to hear responses from people about it I just want people to be happy like my text expander shortcut says I just want people to be happy

MaxI can't help it I don't want to like those movies but I do I want to find out what happens

Merlinwell maybe

MaxI don't think it's politics going to see them. I just think they're fun movies.

AlexI was very brave in saying I kind of hated Captain Marvel.

MaxYour daughter doesn't want to see the new Vengees? Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

MerlinShe doesn't like them? No, it's just your papa. I put up a little red velvet rope around my opinion.

MaxNo one's allowed. VIP opinion area. I thought that you liked these movies. You always talk about them. I like OmniFocus.

AlexI feel like it switches back every week. I don't know who likes Marvel and who, like, Max sometimes does and then doesn't and then Merlin doesn't.

MerlinI don't think they're great movies. This is just another example of late capitalism, something

Maxsomething else. I think they've successfully

MerlinIt's the fan community. They're always coming in. They're dressed up like an animal or they have horns. It's like I don't understand. Why don't you just get out and canvas for Bernie? I wish they were this excited about Notre Dame. They've successfully

Maxmade me care. I don't want to care. I don't want to care. you know merlin if you have you shouldn't go see that movie if you have a child oh oh do not go see that movie if you have a child oh well if you're you know what if your

Merlinchild if your child can't behave at a comic book movie don't bring them oh my god that was so bizarre you saw that you saw lisa lisa simpson standing in front of a board so so this con this this fan psa what did it say it was like psa if your kids can't behave or sit still for three hours don't bring them to the avengers i can't sit still lisa simpson would never say that that's comic book guy working into her and now she's insane you know what i'm saying

Speaker Ashe she got hodored yeah yeah yeah no i mean you know it's um it's uh i don't bring your don't

Merlinbring your children though don't bring your children don't don't just bring bring other silent silent sad adults i i'm you know it's good it's good i i have really increasingly mixed feelings like going back and watching the movies not for any political reason or not for any like i don't know it just i you know it's sort of like it's not like how i feel about apple in some ways where I kind of run hot and cold. I always, all this is for the foreseeable future, I'll continue to start with Apple products, right? But they do stuff that makes me so crazy sometimes

because I've been using Apple stuff since 1987, and I do have a certain idea about what I'd like them to be doing. And in a selfish way, when Apple moves in a direction that either doesn't seem sensible to me, or I mean, candidly, when they're not catering to my personal needs, But when they're becoming less Apple, I get sad. But that doesn't mean I stop using Apple. It's kind of a Merlin Shitless situation. And with the Marvel movies, I'm like, yeah, I mean, that was good. That movie was good. I like that movie. I like that movie. But the problem, red rope, red rope.

AlexSo are you going to share your opinion about what you think about, what should we call this, Marzie? How do you feel about Marzie?

MaxMarzie. Marzie Williams? I think if we call it Captain Mar-Vell, that should probably throw everyone off the scent. I liked it a lot.

MerlinI see. This is the way I brought a rope.

MaxI just rewatched the – I watched – what did I watch? The last Avengers – the Thor or the Thanos one. The last one.

MerlinThe first Infinity War. The first Infinity War. Yeah. Yeah. And then – Oh, yeah. You said as much. You were watching it with your lady friend, right?

MaxYeah, yeah. I rewatched that. And then I rewatched the original Avengers because I realized there's a lot of like, you know, I everyone or not the event. I'm sorry, not Avengers. Guardians of the Galaxy, because I think everyone forgets in the Guardians of the Galaxy. There's so much exposition that you don't even listen to because you're like, bring back the talking raccoon.

MerlinYeah.

MaxBut there's a lot of the stuff of Ronan, the accuser, having these like Shakespearean monologues, like trading back and forth with Thanos. And like that stuff is all relevant to the story.

MerlinI want to say a nice thing I want to say a nice thing which is that something something Avengers was not a perfect movie but like I continue to believe that the pre, it's way pre credits it's pre, but like the scene at the very very very very beginning of the Avengers I'm far from the first person to point this out it's the most amazing piece of exposition like in that amount of time

that I think I've ever seen where the dude's walking up the steps. Was it Loki? I forget. But they do so much. They do so much.

MaxAre you talking about the first Avengers, the original event, the Joss Whedon Avengers movie?

MerlinYes. Okay. Yeah. But yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I don't know.

MaxI don't know. You know, I'm sure it'll be good. I think this is probably why people listen to the program to not hear what we think about stuff.

AlexI want to know what Merlin thinks of Marzipan. What's Marzipan? Wow.

MaxIs that one that I didn't see?

AlexYeah, that's the superhero that combines iOS and macOS apps. Oh, it's that thing.

MaxWell, those apps are pretty bad, right? Like Stocks and Home and stuff like that. It's different. It's different.

AlexIt's different. You don't spend six hours a day listening to these podcasts? Merlin, what do you think?

MaxIf I'm on my computer and I'm opening up the Stocks app and it's a piece of shit.

AlexIt is. It looks terrible. Merlin, how do you feel about, do you think there's going to be a yellow submarine

Merlinan edition of the iPhone, I really, really need to know. I mean, I think a lot of like in the sort of relay universe, they're bringing up some... What? No, no. I mean, I think... I wasn't expecting a serious answer. Now I'm excited. Sorry. Go ahead. Oh, I mean, I think where you see this, they talked about this a lot on the relay shows, but recently on Upgrade. Boy, this is boring. I think the idea of what it means to bring automation to one platform or the other is going to be an interesting inflection point for what the future is going to be, for sure.

MaxI don't know what you guys are talking about. Could you explain it for me? I'm sure all of our listeners know exactly the nuances of what you guys are talking about.

AlexHonestly, okay, tweet at me if you did not know what Marzipan was before this podcast. suppose suppose what's merlin's okay supposedly on um during the keynote at wwdc it will be announced like the sneak peek of uh last year's thing the sneak peek is going to be that you can easily port your ios apps to mac os and uh what's his name giro rambo uh gi rambo i like to call i

I liked his like, uh, what did I call them? Oh, his, uh, Rambo ramblings, but in a good way, this, this guy found all of this stuff with Steve Trotton Smith about how you're going to be able to automate possibly with Siri shortcuts and Siri is going to be better on the Mac. And now, uh, mouse support is coming to the accessibility settings and iPad.

MaxThis is a real Alex story. I do not understand. I don't understand a word. I don't understand a word that you're saying.

AlexThe, the, the, that was, okay, we're done. I'm excited. Well,

Merlinno, Because, I mean, it actually is really interesting in the sense that it's going to – it seems like in order to do the kinds of things they seem to be talking about doing, there's going to be a need to figure out on a deep level, like, which parts of which platform, quote-unquote, win in some ways. And, like, the hope is that some of the power of the Mac will be coming to iOS. and in the past we've seen a lot of the way we think about iOS has kind of come to the Mac

and people are saying, oh gosh, I hope I don't lose my power on the Mac. But if you want to do stuff like shortcuts, if you want to go both ways with something like automation... Okay, next topic, jazz break.

AlexI want to talk about how no one's having sex because of Netflix, apparently.

MerlinOh, yeah, right.

MaxPaywall, paywall.

AlexYeah.

MaxYou have to explain this one.

AlexNo, I can't. Start a story. I saw a Twitter moment about how apparently nobody's having sex because of Netflix, according to the Wall Street Journal. And then I tried to open the article and they show the beginning and the photo that they have to start the article is, I'll say two large people in reclining chairs. And they say that the most unattractive words, the most unattractive three words are let's watch Netflix.

And then I couldn't read anymore and try to get around their paywall.

MaxTo me, the sort of definitive thing on this is a really good Atlantic article from a couple of months ago by Kate Julian called Why Are Young People Having So Little Sex? And it really goes through the whole deal, all the data, like how do we know that and what are the reasons and stuff like that. I will send this to you for the show notes. I'll put it in our super secret channel, and it is not behind a paywall. I thought that was a pretty good read.

AlexAlso, I don't mind paywalls. I just don't want to give Jeff Bezos more money.

MaxTo me, I mean, I think it's pretty, to me, I guess there's a lot of, like, so this article kind of goes through a lot of different options of, like, oh, maybe it's because of, like, the Me Too age. Kids are, like, scared to have sex. Or maybe it's because of internet porn. Like, they're not the right amount of horny. Or maybe it's because of, like, video games. Or kind of, there's all these different, like, cultural reasons. And I got to say, like, it's pretty it seems pretty obvious to me, which is like millennials are less likely to have their own house.

They're more likely to have roommates. They're less likely to have disposable income so they can't like go on dates. So they're like dating less and having sex less because they don't have private time and private space. That's a luxury. That's a luxury good.

MerlinSo we could go down a route on this and do sort of what do you call a materialist argument? I mean, I'm just going to speculate. But one could be like you may not have the privacy that people like us have historically had like in your setup. I mean, here's the deeper thing. And I think this might be the Alex point. It's like is that people just don't want to have sex things as much or is it they just can't have sex things as much? And how is that a Netflix thing?

Has Netflix made them not want to have sex or is it just more interesting?

MaxWell, I think it's a fact. I mean, again, I definitely recommend this Atlantic article because I think they do go through the data, and I think it's a fact that millennials are having less sex than previous generations, which is surprising because every previous generation has reported having more sex than the generation before. Like every generation is sort of like more sexually liberated and has more partners, and they're less monogamous and all of that than the previous generation, except for millennials, and there's this big downtick in how much sex they report having and how many partners they report having and all of that.

And I think it's one of those facts that sort of cries out for whatever your personal thing is. If you're the anti-Netflix person, if you're Ben Shapiro, you're going to be like, oh, it's because the kids don't believe in Western values and the church burned down or whatever. You're always going to find it. It's whatever your special thing is, that's why the children aren't having as much sex. But probably the correct answer is that they can't afford their own house.

AlexI'm just scrolling through this see this Atlantic article is what I wanted to read because I'm like what a stupid headline but one of the quotes is unless you're exceptionally good looking the thing online dating may be best at is sucking up large amounts of time rather than dating which is a really good point like that's so good

Merlinyeah like did you see the big magnum opus the other day

Alexon incels no by

Merlinwho no i miss i miss this too oh god it's really good and depressing let me find it for you that's

Maxthe topic of insults when i was going to bring this up with regards to online dating like i was lucky i mean i missed online dating by like months like honestly like yeah like i i actually have never had an account on any online dating site like i just missed it and thank god because the whole it really terrifies me like it pushes all my sort of buttons about like self-representation and I don't know, just, it's so far out of my comfort zone and how, right in the exact way that I don't like to interact with people and it really would have, it would have been very bad for me if I needed to sort of use online dating

to like get a partner. It would have been very, very bad for me. But anyway, I do think, you know, when I, if I try to, like, okay, so like the ContraPoints incels video, right? So good. It was great and I think what she's doing is she's not excusing all of the terrible things that they do but she's saying like, if we try to listen with empathy to like what they're the pain that they're telling us that they have like they have valid points like it really sucks to be in a lot of ways like absolutely it sucks like it's not like not being able to have a girlfriend and it being so hard and fraught to

Merlindate is bad it sucks well there's so much so I just I think I think I sent you the link um yeah to this Vox article and uh I I'm it's a long article I'm like a third of the way through it But it's real good. And, you know, there's so much about it that is just, you know, per the ContraPoints video, there's so much about it that's just, this is a gross article. There's gross stuff happening. Basically, the notion in this article is that what we now think of as incel stuff actually started with a woman who considered, like, late 90s, who considered herself an involuntarily celibate person.

And then kind of like, you know, being understandably mopey about it. And then the thrust of this article is that that got picked up in places like Reddit to where, and I'm just repeating stuff. It's a big turns out, which is that this becomes a thing where people go online to get some sympathy and instead find the ultimate kind of sad sack community that goes, no, you are ugly. You're not a Chad. Like, get out the calipers. There's a reason you're unfuckable. Welcome to our subreddit.

MaxSo the lady who started incels never even shot up one school.

AlexNo, and she was gay. Incel started as, I think it's a Nancy podcast episode. I'll find it. But it's amazing because it started as mostly queer people who couldn't have sex because they were in, like, they didn't have privacy or there weren't any other gay people at their schools. And then eventually she found a partner and is like, okay, guys, like, I love this community. Like, I feel like this isn't my space, but go with God. And then Reddit picked it up.

MerlinAnd the thing is being so steeped in this community. And like they say in this article, a lot of it is like they're just joshing around and doing memes. And, of course, but it's pretty mean-spirited that women have basically as – women in particular as a group have deliberately excluded them and will only date the hot guys. And like any community, it's a positive feedback loop, ironic name, where you're just getting all this same stuff that other people think and you're dragged down and down and down. But here's the part where I got to this, and I don't want to say I felt sympathy, but let me put it this way.

Like, imagine how you felt at your lowest. You know, like for me, like in terms of how I felt about myself and my body and my whatever, like it's got to be probably middle school. Where I felt like I have got to be the only person in the world that is this isolated from society, like let alone the thing that I want to be. So, like, imagine instead of being surrounded by people who go like, yeah, that sucks. It gets better. Like, imagine being surrounded by people, like, except you kept that into your 30s. And now everybody around you is agreeing that that is reality and that reality is unchangeable.

Like, because of who you are, you are in the target. You are, like, this target for all of these people who are never going to want to, you know, have anything to do with you. So, here's a paragraph. John, a 30-year-old in self from New Jersey, tried pretty much everything he could think of to help himself succeed in the dating market. He works out regularly, eats vegetarian, and spends time reading up on fashion so he can try to dress well.

He's tried online dating for years and let some of his female friends set him up on dates. But very few women have responded to his messages on dating apps. And when his female friends described him to their girlfriends, they would never describe him as attractive or even cute. Eventually, John concluded he was just ugly and there was nothing that he could do. No way he could eat or dress to fix that. So, you know, he lost that opportunity to suck at dealing with the people you're attracted to. And he never had a win with that or whatever.

But then I thought about, shit, man, how would I do with online dating?

AlexOh, wait, hold on.

MaxIs there a bear? Are you shaking that to ward off a bear?

AlexNo, Merlin said a word. Going in the swear jar. Okay, sorry.

MerlinOh, no, which one did I say? Just tell me the letter.

AlexHe said the S word.

MerlinOh, no, Merlin.

AlexI owe you a Coke. I've started. Oh, it's a dime. I'm pulling coins out of my Pikachu's anus. All right, sorry, what were you saying?

MerlinOh, come on. That's real. That's real some edgelord stuff. I would suck at online dating is what I'm saying. I'd be terrible at it. I don't even have an Instagram. Like I would be so bad at this and I wouldn't even want to try to make myself look appealing and then I'd get mad that no one liked me and it would feel like junior high all over again.

MaxOne of the points that the ContraPoints video went over really well is the idea of like it's this idea of enforced like hopelessness in these incel forums. So sometimes someone will be like, hey, why don't you just like if you don't like how you look, why don't you just like change your diet and exercise and like you know I don't know like wear better clothes and like get out of your house and you know these are like fixable problems and that's almost like a that's like a heresy like you're not supposed to say that in incel spaces

because the idea is you're supposed to like accept that it's hopeless and not that's obviously an absurd position but like there is something to it um that how do I put this like I think a lot of Okay, so I get emails all the time from people who want to become – they want to make games like full time. And they email me and they're like, what's the trick? And I really – Don't hoard it. Like what is the trick? Yeah, what do I do? I get that email once a day from someone. And sometimes they tell me their story and they genuinely have a really sad story of some circumstances in their life.

And they're like, now I'm ready and I want to turn it all around and make games. So like what do I do? Tell me the path. Tell me the thing. and a lot of indie designers that were like one generation ahead of me that made money and became successful, they sort of made a second career after they became successful game designers as almost like motivational public speakers where they would go to these conferences and they would say, and they would say, the only thing standing between you and success is that you don't believe in it enough and you need to jump off a cliff. That is such a good pivot, Max.

MerlinYou're so right.

MaxAnd they would say, jump off a cliff and build a plane on the way down, right? You have to believe and take a leap of faith and quit your job and commit, and you can make a living as an independent game designer just making games and living the life, and it's all awesome. Now, the reality of it is, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I think I might have talked about this here before, but, like, I have this conversation with a friend of the show, Zach Gage, all the time. And Zach and I do – we are extremely lucky and privileged that we both make our living as game designers.

and we've had this conversation before of how many people do we think are out there who make their living as an independent game designer? Not employed by a big studio as an employee, but they're a game designer. They make games and people buy them.

MerlinSo not even of the gen pop, but of the people who make games, how many of those people are able to sustain them?

MaxYes, right. So those are two questions. One question is, can I make a game? And anyone can make a game and they should. It's amazing. That's like saying, can I paint? Yes, everyone can learn to paint and they should and you'll probably get a lot of fulfillment and make a lot of people happy and learn a lot of things about yourself, et cetera, et cetera. But it's a different question to say, can I make a living as a full-time oil painter? And I don't want to work on a staff at a big oil painting company where they sell paintings in Ikea. I want to be an artist where people know my name and buy my work and all of that.

Now, Zach has this great statistic. He told me that in the whole world of fine art, so all the museums and galleries and people, like how many people out there in the whole world today, six billion people, How many people do you think make a full-time living as a fine artist?

MerlinRight.

MaxAnd it's like 300 people. The number's got to be the same for indie games. It's probably fewer. And so, like, I'm tempted when people email me, like, I'm really torn because I think what they want is a pep talk. And then what they want me to say is, like, oh, the secret is just to buy Facebook ads. And then you can do it. You know, or they want me to say some hack or something like that, right? Like, just use these hashtags in MailChimp. Or I don't know what they expect exactly. But they want some path.

MerlinIn some ways, for me, as I've started to slowly acknowledge my own kind of privileges just a little bit, is to go like, well, you're going to need a lot of luck in a time machine. You need an extraordinary amount of luck, and you need to have done this 10 years ago. Because the whole reason that I had success with what I was doing pretty much was timing. And I got very fortunate with being in the right place at the right time, mostly doing the right thing, except for when I was able to screw that up. But you know what I mean? Like when you say that to somebody, you're like, well, by the time you know about game designing as a thing, like you're you're already you're not skating to where the puck is.

You're like you're looking for the old hockey arena.

MaxRight. Yes. That's that is such a good point. And there's another piece of it, which is in the you know, I don't want I'm not trying to be like the guy on the insult forum saying like abandon all hope and just, you know, accept that that it's it's impossible or whatever. But also like you I want to be careful of like there are the why is it hard right now to make a living as an independent game designer? Well, it's not because people are mean or whatever. It's structural reasons. The platforms have evolved to a point where it's really, really hard to make money. It used to be really easy to make money on the App Store,

and now entirely for structural reasons that don't have to do with any individual persons being kind or cruel or mean. It's not a guy being mean to you. It's a structural designed reason of the App Store ecosystem that it's now very challenging to be discovered on the App Store and to make money on the app store. That's so good. And obviously there's like the free-to-play model and all of that. So it's people in a sense, and I do think there's a lot of people who look at game design and they look at the dominance of free-to-play and how hard it is to break into the market and they go, well, I'm fucked.

Like it's hopeless. And my truth is they're not 100% wrong. Like it is, it sucks.

MerlinWell, they're wrong, they're wrong. But like this is, okay. So like just to take your point and do my own version of that.

MaxYeah.

MerlinLike let's put it this way. And I realize I'm shooting fish in a barrel, but I hope it makes a point, which is what if somebody came to me and said hey in 2000 in september of 2004 you started a blog about productivity that got by the terms of the time pretty well known and popular and you were able to make money from it like how do i do that and i and i would go well i mean you know you can obviously see the punchline the sad punchline here is like well that's because of that time that's because i happened to be in the right line when blogs were

on the ascent. And again, I'm privileged, privileged, privileged. But like, just in terms of that, like, what you end up having to say to someone is what, what you're trying to accomplish may not be impossible, but are you sure that's the thing you want to accomplish? Because, you know, like I say, even every, you know, every buggy whip store probably had a salesman of the month until they didn't need buggy whips anymore. Like, do you want to be the most successful buggy whip man? And like, in that case, I would go like, well, no, because, you know, There's a reason I don't write online for money anymore because there's not that much interest in the kind of stuff I like, the stuff I like to write, and there's very little money in it.

How would you say that to somebody without sounding like an asshole? It's like, no, I'm trying to be helpful, but you also do need a certain amount of foresight into maybe what the next thing will be and start placing your bets there. You know what I mean? How do you say that without sounding like a jerk?

MaxA confounding factor. Another, just one more thing I would sort of throw into the mix here of like how complicated and fraught this all is, is like the actual answer for the incels and the people who aren't having sex and they're justifiably mad and there's structural reasons that make them feel not, and they're not entirely wrong to feel like it's hopeless for them because it's not like just their attitude. Listen.

AlexWhoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Why are they justifiably mad? No, we didn't talk about this.

MaxBecause it's, okay, let me use the example of Queer Eye, right? like we talk about how funny it is on queer eye like i really felt like especially on the most recent season i love that show and every episode made me cry and i'll continue watching it but it is a little funny on queer eye that they go to this this one woman's house and she's like i eat ramen three meals a day and all of my furniture is from the garbage and they're like you just need to believe in yourself let's go shop at cb2 you just need a leather jacket and

Merlinyou'll be the cutest lesbian in town but but it's like actually right right it's like you know There's a monetary reason why people don't do stuff.

MaxRight. It's actually not that she doesn't love herself enough. It's that she's broke. That's the problem. And Queer Eye turned her whole apartment around and made her clothes better because they had money from Netflix that they could spend on that stuff that she did not previously have. We made your room blue. Yeah. There's open shelves now in the kitchen.

But anyway, it's like at the heart – this is the point of that ContraPoints video. To me, at least, what I took away from it is at the heart of the incels thing is their lives are shitty, and it's because of structural reasons. They would not be so desperate in their lives. They would not be so immiserated if it weren't for all of these problems in our society.

It's very hard. The jobs available are these gig economy jobs, and there's no labor protections, and you don't have a steady source of employment, and it's really hard to own a home, and everyone has student debt. There's these crushing institutional forces that sort of just grind people into the dirt. And then I don't know what outlet, I mean, not everyone is thinking about it in those terms. A lot of them are just like, why can't I have a girlfriend? Women are mean to me.

AlexWell, that's what I mean. Exactly. I agree with everything. The reason that they can't bone ladies is because they are stuck in their parents' basements. But there's no justifiable reason for them to hate women. It puts them in that position, for sure. But that's not.

MerlinAnd it's ultimately also not helping their game.

AlexNo. For sure.

MaxI hate you. Please suck my dick. If you go on a first date and you just complain about Anita Sarkeesian the whole time, that date's not ending well.

You know, what I'm saying is the feeling of hopelessness is justified because I think they look at all these systems that are, like, aligned against them and they're like, nobody gives a shit about me. And it's – Hey!

MerlinIt's – oh, damn it.

MaxOh, man. Oh, two for two. And anyhow, I think part of the thing – the thing I was going to say I wanted to, like, throw in the mix here is, like, Like, what's, I really think if you want to prevent, to me, if you want to, who am I? I'm just a humble observer here. But if we really were serious about preventing, like, the next Gamergate or the next Trump, you have to take all these, like, angry young men and, like, give them something more productive to do with their lives than harass women online. Like, people who have full-time jobs.

I mean, there's always going to be some psychos out there.

MerlinBut they're still chasing that dragon. They're still, I mean, I don't know. I don't think I know a lot of incels, but they strike me as being still emotionally 14. And they they missed they missed some kind of Erickson pyramid step to where, like, I mean, let's just let's say. So, yeah, there's two there's two elephants in the room. Alex just brought one of them up, which is like, you know what? You're you you're your decision to hate women because of how you feel about life is is is it's got it's got a lot of problems to it. But like, but the other thing is like, you know what other elephant in the room?

You don't actually like those women except as vessels for you getting what you want. See also for you solo. You only really care about those women in terms of how they can help you meet a need that you feel has been unmet currently and in the past. And I'm just here to tell you, like as somebody who's been through the Clone Wars, I'm just here to tell you, like, that is not a great long term strategy. it is and i'm not saying you have to become like a lovey-dovey alan alda but like you know the fact you are really you you have no idea you are drinking salt water and you have no idea how

much at cross purposes with your theoretical goal your behavior is being and it's also being reiterated by all the people who surround you in that community well i i can't there is no i don't

Maxthink other than like chemical castration i don't think there's a cure where on the individual level where we rid the world of every hateful young man. Patton Oswalt.

AlexJust tell people you're coming to me.

MaxWe can't rid the internet of every angry young man who harasses women. I think that is my cynical view. That is, as they say, a big ask. I think that's maybe my cynical view of human nature is there's always going to be psychos out there who are whatever. They're racist. They're sexist. They're truly awful people. And there's probably nothing we can do. I don't think there's anything that we'd be willing to tolerate that would sort of like fully purge those people from society.

AlexNo, absolutely not.

MaxHowever, there is a systemic fix of like if people's lives are good and they're prosperous and they have some fulfillment in their lives and they're not being like ground down into the dirt by all of these systems and denied opportunities, they have much less incentive to make that their main hobby in life, right? Like you're not going to have these mass movements of sexism if people could afford better video gaming consoles.

AlexThen what is... Women aren't a minority. What is the equivalent of incels for women? Why aren't we saying we hate ourselves? I mean, I do, but there's not this...

MerlinYeah, but you hate yourself organically.

AlexExactly, yeah. I was born in the self-hatred. And I... watch this television screen in a way like when i she like she ghosted me we need anita back i i don't know okay when i go to

Maxthe grocery store or whatever or just even like watch tv i see a lot of media that's about women hating themselves and each other a lot of this sort of oh that is very fair a lot of celebrity gossip I think is about tearing down other women obviously the entire sort of health and beauty racket a lot of multi-level marketing schemes a lot of them are not electable is another problem

Alexyeah we we absolutely have tons of internalized misogyny but there isn't no one at this point is shooting each other and is that just as like what what we consider male rage and like just the way that we're raised and programmed differently like I think that could be the answer I I genuinely do

Maxnot know you probably i mean yeah it also like sometimes the answer on this stuff is like literally as simple as like who owns guns it may be that like men and women are like

Merlinbasically equally likely to let's say you're a mayor with 50 guns who threatens kids in a park

Maxoh my god that was great that's like every paragraph of that was more like what now actually could you put we should we read that in a second we see if you can find that anyway i think like it's sometimes the answer on this stuff is as simple as like men and women are equally as likely to fly into a rage but men are statistically more likely to own guns and so therefore there's more gun violence where women have are less likely to own guns or have higher barrier like sometimes it's really stupid like that it's not some big thing it's just it's like yeah it's just men have

Alexall the guns so the solution is we should all buy guns um yeah i know i'm very brave uh where

Merlinyou really you really disrupted that market that's good but i also like i'll tell you the

Maxother thing is like i've been i was reading all i read all this stuff after trump got elected i read all the not these nazi books and all these histories of germany and fascism in the 40s and 30s and stuff like that and like these like roving in germany they had these roving after world war one and like the humiliation of germany after world war one they had the streets were filled with these bands of angry young men who were got into fights with each other and they were just thugs because they had no opportunities in life like germany and they blame they blame the versailles

Merlintreaty i mean somewhat understandably lots of people said this was this is too tough you guys

Maxlike we cannot be this tough with this treaty this is they blamed the sjw cucks in the weimar republic

MerlinThat's right. Okay, so this is not the one I linked to, but this should work. I also wanted to say this in passing. I don't want to get into a thing, but as long as you're giving old man reckons and opinions, I'll give mine. Is that there is, in the increasingly consolidated, there are so many media depictions of people who want you to know how well they're doing. Like whether that's the Kardashians or somebody on Instagram, sorry to bag on Instagram. It really is a place where a lot of people show you how they're doing better than you.

There are so many places where we are reminded how well other people appear to be doing compared to us. And I think that goes for whether that's looking at an airbrush lady in a magazine or whether that's seeing some Chad who's able to nail all the hard sevens or whatever. I don't know the language. But I do feel like that kind of factors into it. You're like, when am I going to be a Twitter story? Or whatever. You know, when am I going to have my day? And it's like, so what do you have?

You either choose between being a Kardashian or being a public train wreck, which I guess is a different kind of train wreck. But you know what I'm saying? Like, how are you – like, either you are Kanye West or you're a hoarder. Like, there's – the ways that we get bubbled up information about strangers are on their best and worst days. And their best day is so frequently these days followed by one of their worst days because that's how the internet works now. So I feel – I mean I don't want to go on, but I do feel like there is this thing where the constant reminder, this hegemonic, ideological – the idea – that was my side sec.

I've been eating out of this dumpster. Anyways, I don't know. I don't know.

MaxWell, there is – that's a great idea from this book that I've talked about before that I really like, Capitalist Realism. and there's this idea that it's like it comes almost from like hip-hop culture that the most real thing of all is money and that say what you want and you can have all your politics and your opinions and this and that but at the end of the day like I have things and you don't I have my sort of hip-hop jewels and you don't and here they are and that is and that that's sort of that's like posited as like pre-ideological or post-ideological but it's like there's no you have

your ideology over here but I have my stuff and of course like anything that's positioned in that place of like oh well you this is without any ideology like i have my my my power gems over

Merlinhere like that is what the man says this is what the man says this is this is what what he says is that is that you know that it's what i would normally call hegemony but he's probably using a better word ideology is like like the more you think you're out of the ideology like the deeper

Maxyou are in the ideology that's yeah that's the ideology the place where you're like have you guys

Merlinwatched that have you seen ideology for perverts yeah great it's awesome has alex i ain't got that

Maxin the list. Wait, is that the one where he's filmed touring a trash facility? It's the one that's, I love it so

Merlinmuch. I'm sorry, I stand for him. But I think he's so hilarious, and he totally dunked on Jordan Peterson, which was great. But yeah, it starts out with the scenes from They Live, like the movie where you put on the glasses and you can see what's really going on. And the way that he pivots to, well, that's what you think. You think ideology are these glasses that you put on in order to like you know basically what he's saying is no it's the opposite you take off these glasses and you see you know or you put on the glasses in this case and the ideology is actually there we misunderstand this uh it's in the challenges should we read about the mayor let's

Alexread about the mayor let's read about the mayor yeah i don't know what the original article is i

Merlincan't find it yeah oh it was so good i wish i could take a second to find okay you know what

Maxi'm gonna do oh god i hate this i'm gonna can i read the numbers that i compiled on uh trump's and Taft's relative obesity. Please. Oh, yeah, please. I did do a little research on this because I got many comments about it, but I still believe that Trump is equally as obese as Taft. Merlin sent out a picture of his...

MerlinI did not. What are you talking about?

MaxMerlin sent a picture of Trump in his Lego body ass looking suit this morning. He looks like a Funko Pop of himself. He looks like a fucking cube with just his head coming out of it.

MerlinWell, you know, like the patent. Listen, this is not shaming. But, you know, like when you watch a baseball game and you got the umpire and he wears that very large chest thing. It looks like he's wearing like a chest thing under maybe two of those. And then he's got his his his flattering coat. Well, anyway, I wouldn't. You're going to get email. You're going to.

AlexNo, it's OK to say he looks like a fat Minecraft character. Like that is what he is. I'm just observing a fact.

MaxSo listen, Taft was six feet tall and he weighed 332 pounds. Okay? He was a big man. And I put that in a BMI calculator and it said his BMI was 42.3. Okay? That is obese. Now, medically, not my opinion, I think he looks beautiful and I accept it for how he is. You're just exposing science to the people. Now, Trump, we don't know how tall he is because he says his official height is 6'3".

MerlinWe've seen photos of him next to Obama who is of a known height and he ain't no Obama.

MaxExactly. So I was thinking about how do I figure out actually what Trump weighs and what his height is. And there's all these different things online of like people guessing. Oh, you know, there's like the wiki height where people like put him next to celebs and things. But Washington Post found a 60-year veteran carnival guesser. Oh, wow. So I literally, I was like, you know, I bet someone has had a carnival guesser look at Trump and guess. And those guys, that's as good as, probably that's as good as we're going to get.

And sure enough, Washington Post did it. They found the best guy. He's been doing it for 60 years. And he pegs Trump at 5'9 and 255.

MerlinNo. I'm 5'9 and a half. And he's way taller than me.

MaxI don't think he is. I think he's probably your height.

MerlinOh, my God.

MaxSo the carnival guesser, 60-year veteran carnival guesser, says Trump is 5'9 and 255, which puts him at a BMI of 40, which is also obese and is basically the same as Taft. Okay, 40 versus 42. They're equally obese.

MerlinYou're just exposing facts to the people.

MaxYes. I'm not saying whether it's good or bad. You'll have to decide that for yourself. I personally think it's good.

AlexOkay, I'm going to get—man, I'm in SJdubs mode today. But, like, fat isn't a slur. People can be fat. It's fine. But it's okay also to make fun of a fat guy who just fat shames women 24-7 and makes the short people stand next to him in photos. He's dumb and ugly. I'm very brave.

MaxIt's not that Trump is fat. That was super brave. The joke is not that Trump is fat.

AlexIt's that he's lying.

MaxIt's that he lied. The joke is that he's vain. It's that he's vain. Exactly. Nobody would care if he was just comfortable with, if he just owned it.

AlexHe needs to, he's got some self-care. Yeah, yeah. love your body get a fucking bath bomb man he needs to listen to the new lizzo album really

Merlinmayor charged with pointing gun at miners in parks steps down fayland associated press the mayor of a small town in pennsylvania is stepping down after being charged with pointing a gun at kids in a park the the lawyer for dairy we've all we've all been tempted don't who amongst us who the lawyer for is it okay to curse it kids the the lawyer for Derry Mayor Kevin Gross, the lawyer for Derry Mayor Kevin Gross, said Friday that he has resigned less than a week after being accused of pointing the gun.

The 38-year-old mayor turned over more than 50 guns on a district judge's order. He's accused of assault, reckless endangerment, and harassment. The lawyer says he denies the allegations. Police say Gross also pointed the gun at three teenage girls who were bystanders and told them to put their phones and other belongings on a bench.

Derry Mayor.

MaxDo we know why the altercation started? Maybe he had a point

MerlinMaybe they were doing selfies

MaxMaybe the kids were being a little shit

AlexMaybe he was picking up his cell phone Who knows

MerlinBoy, you're gonna get email

AlexIt's very sad and weird

MaxListen, I don't want to be made fun of by kids I mean, if I owned a gun, I'd probably point it at them If they made fun of my skateboard or something

MerlinYeah, when they make fun of your Segway, that's hurtful That's just hurtful I'm helping the environment and by the way I got 250 miles on this little bitch I had saved go there we are

Maxgod damn it oh fuck me gently Venmo

Alexdid you want to talk about

Merlinhobby horsing

Alexuh this i was unfamiliar until you put this in the doc here here i'm gonna wait but it doesn't

Maxi'm sorry i before we move on though the article does not say why it started no well this is this

Merlinis the breaking news version of the dairy mirror yeah so i i don't i don't know what what came out of it yeah but he does look like a human thumb and probably makes videos in his car um

Alexhe's a sunglass wraparound sunglass he's a wraparound

Merlinsunglass man Chapo this week by the way Chapo this week very very good did you hear Virgil's opening statement

Maxit got me

Merlinholy shit that guy's funny he's such a good writer

Alexhe's not wrong the whole time I was kind of like you know what he was

Merlinhe was misunderstood You're still, he's not saying you shouldn't have kids. So funny. The only good reason to have kids is if you're struggling with your relationship.

MaxOkay, here we go. Here we go. Here we go. A playground argument. This is from triblive.com.

MerlinBig fan.

MaxA playground argument over a marker Sunday night led to the mayor of Derry Borough pointing a gun at four children in a park, according to state police. Kevin M. Gross, 38, took a loaded revolver to the park near his Broad Street home just before 8.30 p.m. after his son was involved in a quote-unquote scrape with other boys. Gross is accused of pointing the weapon at a 15-year-old boy and three girls, a 12-year-old and two 14-year-olds, before residents nearby intervened, he said.

I'm trying to see if there's any. Police said Gross ordered the teenage boy to the ground at gunpoint. He's accused of demanding the girls put their cell phones and belongings down while pointing the weapon at them.

AlexOh, my God. It was real. That wasn't a. Oh, geez.

MaxHere we go. The boy was trying to get a marker back from one of the other children when the scuffle occurred. One of the children had a minor scrape on their arm.

AlexOh.

MaxWow. Imagine getting into a fight in the park and suddenly the mayor appears and points a gun at you.

AlexOh, my God.

MaxHe was elected mayor in 2017 with 98% of the votes.

MerlinOh, Derry Mayor coming. Oh, God. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's, boy, I just, you know, me, I just always walk through the steps. Like, I don't like having to go to Walgreens, you know? But I'm imagining I get one of my 50 guns, I get my revolver, and I make sure it's loaded. And I'm going to show these youngsters a little bit of frontier justice.

MaxNow, you're saying if you rolled up on the playground and someone had stolen a marker from your daughter and pushed her on the ground and you just happened to have a revolver, you wouldn't be tempted? I would be tempted. Yeah.

MerlinBecause, I mean, what's the point of having guns if you don't have guns?

MaxYeah.

MerlinRight?

MaxI would be tempted, too.

MerlinWho buys ketchup and keeps it in the garage? I'm going to come fully packed, maybe like a Chewbacca bandolier. I am ready for some serious stuff to go down at the playground.

MaxMake fun of me now, you little piece of shit.

Merlintell him the mayor was here the mayor of what

Maxit's not a metaphor

MerlinI'm literally your mayor

Maxyou're gonna make fun of my skateboard now is that funny I'm your mayor and I love you it's still amusing it's still funny huh I'm not allowed to curse this week

Merlinbut you are a little poop he discharged his weapon

MaxWait, he fired into the ground?

MerlinNo, no, he didn't Yosemite salmon, I don't think. I don't think he literally rose into the air from firing guns at the ground, although that would be an amazing effect.

MaxLike maybe one of the kids was still making like a comical hand gesture and he just like fired it into a nearby tree.

MerlinYou think I'm kidding? I'll do it. Do you think I'm messing around? You little feces? I'm the mayor and I can't curse.

Con sarnit. Con sarnit. You know I use prospector swears? Dagnabbit. I curse with my guns.

AlexDig Dug Challenge. Challenge!

MerlinIt was Merlin's challenge this week. It was my challenge this week. My challenge was very, very simple. For one week, and including this episode, stop cursing. No curse words. And that was the challenge.

AlexOne thing we didn't do, which I think we should have, was go over what is and isn't swearing or cursing. Because there's a...

MaxI know the answers to all that. You just asked me.

AlexOkay.

MerlinWell, hang on. And also, I mean, not to problematize this, but the distinction between what one calls swearing, cursing. Cursing is a better word for it. There is a thing you can do called cursing. And then there's an array of sounds that we call swear words or curse words, right? So my main idea was to stop saying things you shouldn't say in front of kids, kind of, even if you're the mayor. Stop using curse words. But it doesn't, first of all, I failed at that utterly. but also like do you want to stop swearing because that is kind of a different thing

Alexright am i am i wrong no no no no i don't think so

Merlinwhat do you what do you got max you do you have a uh you got something you want to read us i mean the thing is i think if you if you read it in brackets if you block quoted i suspect maybe you could just tell us what the word is the words you know are swear words you could tell us in a way that's not swearing well obviously you've got you put asterisks asterisks in it you've got the

Maxseven dirty words you can't say on television.

MerlinOkay, got those, got those, got those. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. George Carlin, classic.

MaxThat would be shit, piss, fuck, cunt, cock, sucker, motherfucker, and tits.

MerlinTits doesn't even belong on the list, man. Well, I did then.

AlexHuh.

MerlinYeah.

AlexSee? It sounds friendly.

MaxNew Nabisco tits.

AlexYeah, I...

MaxI think we've done this bit on the show before, didn't we? Cheese tits? No.

AlexThat's right. Yeah, that was when Adam... Adam was here.

MaxWas it?

AlexOh, that's funny. Yeah.

MaxAnd then you've got the, there's like the Simpsons episode where Bart's like, we're going to live like kings. Damn hell ass kings.

So that would be like your secondary curse words. Now, I didn't give those up because I'm not capable.

AlexWait, really?

MerlinAnd you got the side door curses of childhood where you're like, wow, a bitch is a female dog.

AlexYep. hell h-e-double hockey sticks i used to get in trouble for saying crap crap wow well and no one ever got mad at me ever for using a swear word i okay teachers would catch us and be like say it like don't potty mouth the lord so even oh my god at i i could probably say fuck and it would have been less offensive than saying oh my god in a catholic school i mean i i come from a

Merlintime when the f word at least at least for me and my uh retinue or whatever like that was still like you knew that word but you didn't use that word like you did not you might you might use it like like in the shower like whispered like as a test of whether how it felt in your mouth the mouth feel of fuck but like okay let me just type that up real quick um and uh and and i don't like asterisks stop with the asterisk either curse or don't curse there is no asterisk curse like don't do that don't do that anyways yeah yeah no that one was definitely verboten you're saying max if

i understand you were not punished you were not admonished by adults for using curse words as a kid i don't think so uh where do you remember you remember if you were using them and what they were

MaxI don't it was just never a big deal I mean Jews I think have less hangups about this than other people and I just it just wasn't a big deal in my life I don't know

MerlinI do remember when I first started this is a little bit of like a TV bit but it's true I do remember as I got into it tentatively trying to use curse words and being very bad at it whereas now I am expert at it I'm extremely good at cursing but I remember being like kind of whispering where you just be like ass bitch breast.

Yeah, I mean, there must have been. She's an ass bitch breast.

MaxThere must have been a point where.

MerlinNipple penis.

MaxWhere I was trying, I was like cursing tentatively, but I don't know, like also like in a lot of the, like in just like in politics, like everyone curses a lot. I don't know.

Alexdid uh either of you keep track of the number of times you cursed no i did not keep track oh okay

Merlini abandoned i abandoned my workflow did you did you yeah i gave i gave up i still want it i still want more for writing down the song in my head when i wake up oh good one because the best uh cure for ocd is more ocd yep yep that's what i've heard but you did that you sent us uh your little slide uh left to right thing what was that called what do you call that dash man what's it called when you go to the left to right.

AlexWhat's it called?

MerlinDashboard? Dashman?

AlexThe screen with the widgets.

MerlinYou had a county boy.

MaxPretend like everyone doesn't already know what you're talking about.

AlexOkay, Merlin started that. I sent you the app that I was using to keep track of this, which is Drafts by our friend Greg Tortoise. and it's the great thing about it is the app does he also make the clicker app doesn't he make the clicker app too tally it's called tally tally yeah yep tally votes um and you can add a widget which is when you slide to the opposite do you swipe yes you swipe swipe right on your iphone

and that's where all of your widgets live and i would just put a hit a little plus button and then And my tally would go up the edge.

MerlinToday view?

AlexMaybe.

MerlinToday view, maybe.

AlexI don't know.

MerlinAnd so my problem was I got hung up, as per usual, I got hung up in the implementation details and get a lot of what the kids call scope creep.

MaxWhich is like, I want a way to be able to say which root word and variation I use of the F-bomb.

MerlinAnd that's important to me. Was it a cock or a cock smoker? Like, I'm... And I got all wound up in that. I went back to Datum, which is still around. I went back to Datum.

MaxI thought, is there an easy way to do it? Datum, oh my goodness.

MerlinDo you remember Datum?

MaxThat was a name I haven't heard for many moons.

MerlinDatum is... Yeah, they travel single file, the Datum. It was so good. I looked at that. And then I looked at all these different... It doesn't matter. But no, I didn't count. And so, Alex, you did the smart thing, which is less, because you're a minimalist. and then you just counted the gross number of curses you made. Correct?

AlexYes, 49. 49 for the whole week? I was very careful about this. In fact, I put on, remember the challenge where Max zapped all of us? Oh, yeah.

MerlinThat was a classic.

AlexYeah. So Max, in a previous challenge, made us wear a bracelet where you just shock yourself whenever you do something. bad um so oh my god i might have abused that a little bit yeah so so i uh whipped that out and uh just started it and uh doing a little zip zippy zap and electric find myself electrocuting myself every time i swore um there let me ask you this guys sauce stop doing it's lgbtq week

MerlinNo, no, listen. Listen, they're talking about this in school.

AlexReally?

MerlinThey're talking about this in school, and I want to try. That might be my next challenge.

AlexI know. I'm bad at it.

MerlinYou told me it was okay, and you gave me a pass, but now I do it all the time, and I think it's problematic.

AlexHey, team.

MerlinHey, peeps. That's what a teacher says now.

AlexJust say people. People is not hard. Kids are people. It's not.

MerlinDiscover your desks. So, classics. My question is, was your heart in it? I'm asking both of you very quickly. Was your heart in it?

Alex100 percent.

MerlinYou really like wanted to not do it for the challenge.

AlexYou wanted to not curse. Oh, I didn't necessarily want to do it. But you tried. For the it's my motivations were the challenge. And I told like everybody in my life basically to let me know if I slipped up.

And yeah. And I took some notes over like what were the what were like the big triggers at which like I swore or cursed.

Merlinwhatever uh really and i have to say magic you said you said magic tricks were causing many

Alexcurses yes perhaps unsurprisingly well there were just some new there's some new tricks mech had and they were just really good and i didn't know how they worked and they're just you know uh that was a dick chick fuck sort of situation where just words come out and that's the other thing i don't know why how someone is good at swearing i know that that i am bad at it but i don't know what

Merlinmakes you good at it um what about you max was your was your heart in it did you uh how much did

Maxyou try well not that i didn't try that hard i try i mean i don't i actually so i'm more just tried to be mindful of when i was cursing and i thought maybe it would be interesting and it was interesting

MerlinThe nice thing about you is you are basically explicit in a way that doesn't involve cursing. And I think it's really admirable.

MaxWhat does that mean?

MerlinIt's more the things you say. It's not the worst. Well, I think your Taft and Trump thing is a kind of existential cursing that didn't need a gerund.

MaxInteresting.

MerlinWhereas I'm always prepending a fucking to everything. It's the worst.

MaxYeah, I don't curse that much in my normal everyday life. But you know what? I did have kind of an amazing thing that I noticed from paying attention to it this week, which is I think people start cursing in conversation. Sometimes you're in a conversation or you're hanging out with people, and there's this moment where you want to indicate that you're coming behind the curtain.

MerlinI totally agree. I have an anecdote about this, but continue. Yes. So it's a way it's a way of tentatively deciding how intimate is our interaction right now. Right. Isn't that part of it is like. Yeah.

MaxThere's a way of saying you're you're coming behind the curtain with me. You're you're inside now. And I took. So one of the times I noticed that the cursing was just like out of control was I took this me and up Kevin Pang. So a food writer in Chicago and fellow magic nerd. We took a magic lesson with this guy, Bruce Bernstein, who's kind of a legendary mentalist and the Bruce Bernstein.

MerlinYeah. The Bruce Bernstein. Wow. And we've been Kevin knows him.

MaxHe wrote a profile of him for the for the Tribune. And we've been bugging for him for quite a while to say, hey, can we take a magic lesson with you? Can we take a magic lesson? We finally did it last week. And there was this moment where it was a little awkward. We went over to Bruce's house and there was this moment if he was like, hey, show me a trick just so I can see where you are. and we both did some tricks.

It's awkward, right? We don't even know this guy that well and we're in his house. It's an uncomfortable situation. And then we kind of made our comfort and we realized, okay, we all sort of know what we're talking about and we all have some chops here. And then, oh my God, the cursing. It was just like, pow. Everyone was just cursing up a storm. And I think there was this idea of like, oh, I recognize you as an insider, right? There's something of like, come behind the curtain here. And it happened again in this like, this politics, stupid politics event that I went to for lunch.

And afterwards, I stayed and talked with two of the organizers. And as soon as everyone was gone, like, oh, my God. Like, it was so fucking foul, like, just the cursing. It was like a V. Got a little salty.

MerlinYeah, yeah.

MaxAnd I was just, it was one of those things of, like, because we were tracking it, it kind of raised my antennas. And, like, it wasn't a situation where I was going to not curse because I wanted to, you want to meet people sort of on their level. And it would be weird. it would be conspicuous and weird if I was the only one not cursing.

AlexThat happened to me quite a few times this week.

MerlinBut there was this week. You feel like maybe like an Ellie Kemper.

MaxWhere you're like, I'm trying so dang hard to curse. But there were those moments, both of those were moments where it was this recognition of like, okay, we're all insiders here, right? Like the rubes have left. They're gone. And now it's just us closing the place down. and we can all impress each other and show that we're in the in-group here by just, you know, it's like, honestly, especially the politics people, like it truly sounded like Veep. Like it was like when everyone's making fun of Jonah. Like it's like, it's like so, it's vile.

It was disgusting.

MerlinOne thing I didn't, it's funny that we call it cursing or swearing. And like you think about like, if you go back in what that probably initially meant, meant and there is a very interesting history of cursing and what words are curse words i feel like i heard this on maybe so not silicon valley um lexicon valley but you know some linguist was talking about the history of curse words and how they came about and how there is like this

Maxwhat i just had a funny just go i'm sorry go ahead no go yeah i was just thinking of what if when you cursed you you actually cursed someone well that's what i was gonna say you're basically

Merlinlike an amateur wizard when you're doing it. And you say, God damn you.

MaxNo! Like, everyone's like a planeswalker from Magic the Gathering, and you just, like, take out your... Curse of me, got him. Yeah, you're trying to show that you're cool, and you just put curses on people. Do you guys know about Yiddish curses?

MerlinYes. Oh, I don't think so. Tell me

Maxmore. Uh, the Yiddish curses are just, they're just fucking metal. They're so cool.

MerlinThey're really good.

MaxOh, they're, like, very specific? Yeah, yeah. I just Googled Yiddish curses and here's a select, here's some of them. All the problems I have in my heart should go to his head. Wow. Let what I wish on him come true. Even if it's half or just 10%.

MerlinOh man.

MaxThat's intense. He should marry the daughter of the angel of death. She should have stones and not children. Oh no. He should get so sick as to cough up his mother's milk. That's a curse. That's a curse. Throw salt in his eyes and pepper in his nose.

Leeches should drink him dry.

MerlinSomebody get your parking space. Oh, this is a good one. He should grow a wooden tongue.

AlexOh, God.

MerlinThat's one thing I did notice, though, is like, I mean, I guess this should be sort of obvious, given what a, what does one say? What a wimp I, what? Go.

MaxGod should bless him with three people. One should grab him, the second should stab him, and the third should hide him. What? Ten ships of gold should be his, and the money should only make him sick. I wish that on Donald Trump. If I ever met him, that would be my comment. I'd be, ten ships of gold should be yours, and all the money should only make you sick. Oh, it's like when you start bugging Cal Drogo about the crown. It's like, you want a crown?

MerlinI'll give you a crown.

MaxI did realize that's a good one. Life should fall out except for one to make him suffer. Oh. Oh.

MerlinOh. Oh. I just want to point out mine were mainly out of like colorful laziness. Oh, I also wanted to say just in passing, someone I'm acquainted with at my house, I mentioned this to because that person, that's my wife. She said she wanted to do it less too. And I said, you know, what is the situation where you work? which is a very, it's a professional environment, like a super professional environment. Can we say the field?

MaxIs that too much? Medical stuff.

MerlinIt's a medical school.

MaxSo you never want the doctor to come in and go, well, you're fucked. Oh, fuck. Your ankle's fucked.

AlexYeah, it's all fucked up.

MaxYour ankle's shitty now. It's all shitty.

MerlinSorry, sorry. I never thought it was funny. And she said, no. I mean, like, obviously, it's a combination of, like, medicine and academia academia is like you know so famously collegial and like it's almost like i'm sorry i have game of thrones on the brain but it's like you're in a court it's almost like you're you know you're there like listening to to the to the queen talk and you don't want to make poop jokes like you've got to be very but she said no that she has some people she works with in like positions of power like once you are in that intimate situation whoo they tear the roof off

the joint so i mean like yeah that's why i say i agree with you i do think it is something that like signals intimacy. And, you know, my only point was like, I don't, I can't remember a time, it must exist, given that I'm a wuss, especially, I can't remember a time I've ever cursed at someone. Like I've never called somebody a dickweed to their face.

AlexOh, interesting.

MerlinWhereas I'll bet you a Rodney or a Boston Rob, I bet if you like moved their chairs and got into their shoveled snow spot, I bet you're going to get some choice words from a Boston Rob.

MaxI bet Rodney would say, your stomach should rumble so badly you'll think it was a Purim noisemaker. It's my birthday. It's my birthday. I can't believe I didn't get the reward on Purim.

AlexI'm out here washing dishes on my birthday.

MerlinCan I share my greatest failing of the week where everything really fell apart? Yes. It happened on Monday. And I don't want to go into this. apparently I have this albatross around my neck where I feel the need to tell everybody when I screw up a podcast. Long story short, Roderick and I had recorded 50 minutes into a very good episode. And then the following happened.

Speaker AWhat happened?

MerlinSo fucking mad. Now it's recording. God damn it. It was great. Call recorder was just grayed out. It's going to be the opening of the episode.

MaxShit. That was so fucking good. Call recorder was.

MerlinNo. The whole time it was? So basically while we're recording, I glanced down as I do to see. Oh, don't do that. Don't glance. Well, I just glanced down to see where we were. And call recorder was in the do you want to record state, but grayed out. As in like, it wouldn't let me record for some reason. Now it's recording. Fuck me gently. Jesus fucking Christ. So anyway, really, really, I hadn't been great at it. And then Monday, everything kind of fell apart.

You know how it is? Like, now I'm off the diet. Now, yum, yum, yum. I'm eating all the chips. You know what I mean?

MaxYou know, Merlin, you know what that cursing is? Let me diagnose you. I think there's some psychology happening.

MerlinTell me, please.

MaxI think that you're getting so mad at yourself. You're cursing so much that you're not leaving room for John to be mad at you.

MerlinOh, you know why? Hashtag aloha. Hashtag aloha.

MaxAnd I only know that because someone told me that when I was running late for something and I was so apologetic that I was late. They were like, you are apologizing so much that you're actually not leaving room for me to be mad at you for being late.

MerlinThat's why in the Midwest, an apology is called the Cincinnati curse. Yeah. You apologize very aggressively.

MaxYeah, because the self-flagellation.

MerlinAnd a really invasive, offensive, just sick in the eyes of God level of apology. I am so sorry I'm going to make for your party.

MaxYeah. Yeah.

MerlinSo sorry my potato salad isn't up to your standards.

Maxit's just such a self-flagellation that no one could be mad at you

MerlinI don't know if I could stop so what did you guys do

Maxdid you just roll through and do another hour

Merlinuh yeah we did like 45 minutes and it turned out really well

Alexso but you don't like I'm is it accurate

Merlinbelieve me Syracuse has already grilled me about this tune in next Thursday

Alexokay okay so because it's not a double ender so that It was grayed out. Okay. All right. All right. All right.

MerlinIt's my fault. It's my fault. I'm working. I don't know if I could stop. I really do enjoy it. I do enjoy it. The swearing. I do like it.

AlexBut it is.

MerlinIt's gross and it's small and it's lazy and it's like it's ugh. I mean like you know I don't like poop on a towel and show people. Like why do I talk like that? It's so strange. Hmm. Maybe I should poop on a towel.

MaxI mean I feel like here was the other thought I had about swearing because I was thinking about what it would be like to not swear anymore. and I feel for most of my life like there's something that I'm trying to say so desperately and the ways that I have to say it are so insufficient. I constantly feel like I can never make people understand what I have to say.

MerlinYeah, like adverbs are not going to pull the weight here.

MaxIt's not even that. It's just that language is so insufficient. When I'm talking to someone, I'm always in the back of my mind going, God, if I only had a whiteboard and I could draw it, right?

MerlinWell, you also have a really admirable enthusiasm for things, mostly positive. sometimes very negative. But as our listeners have noted, if you mention an app, it's like the best thing you've ever used and you make other people want to use it. I think that's a very positive thing that you have that enthusiasm. We all have things that are kind of like that. But no, you're just a very, I'm not going to say it again, I guess, or I will. You're an enthusiastic person. And I feel like sometimes you brim over with how much you need to get that out.

Yeah. Which I can't relate to at all.

MaxI'm brimming.

MerlinYeah.

MaxI'm brimming. Here's a brimmer, Jerry. Here's a brimmer. uh who the fuck is your white boy it's just if you were to take cursing away as one of the tools that you have to make a point or explain to people like why it's like if you're trying to yeah it's like if you're trying to play basketball or something and you like tie your arm behind your back like why like that's not going to help you like it's it's we have language it's just like i also like i couldn't be more of a like i almost think it's like a bore the whole thing with cursing it almost bores me it's so settled to me like i'm so bored

like it's just words i can't hurt you like it's so obvious to me that cursing is just nothing like i don't care like any say whatever words you want including all the offensive ones that people get really mad about oh boy oh boy oh my god i was just going back into my sj dub mode of like there's a big difference between cursing and slurring it's just words it's just words oh okay okay They gain social power that we give them.

AlexThey're just words.

MaxThey can't hurt you.

AlexYou're right. But when someone, okay, for example.

MaxI'm not saying that we should say them.

AlexNo, I understand that.

MaxI'm saying you get to choose how, all you get to decide is the reaction that you have.

AlexI agree.

MaxAnd you choose how much power you give. Hashtag aloha.

AlexThat's why, no, okay. So that's why on Easter, when someone called me a fat fag in the parking lot of a Jewel, I can't tell him to fuck off because he's a giant guy and can probably kill me. But that's signaling a threat. Somebody said that to you like that? We've gone over this. It's no big deal. It happens all the time.

MerlinI go to the suburbs a lot. I know, but I'm sorry. That's super gross. That sucks.

AlexBut that's a different thing, though.

MaxSee, there's a situation where if I had a gun... Yes.

AlexOh, God. My God.

MaxActually, if I could get into that, that's actually an interesting example. Like that is very upsetting and it's very threatening. And the reason, let's get into why. And it's fraught. It was really fraught. The reason it's threatening is because he might murder you.

AlexYeah, exactly.

MaxIt's not the word. It's that it's attached to this idea of like physical violence that he might, he hates you for irrational reasons and might murder you.

AlexThat's why slurs are scary.

MaxHe actually hates himself. He's definitely gay and he's scared.

AlexHe definitely wants something in his butt right now. Well, that's the thing. Like when someone.

MerlinDid he look like a thumb? Did he look like a bearded thumb? Oh, I brought you a present.

AlexI brought you a present, Alex.

MaxThis is from the Avatar. What is this? This is from the gift shop of the Avatar. Oh, what is this? Veronica and I just saw this on the shelf and we thought, Alex would probably be into this. So this is called the veiny egg pod crispy treat. And you eat this. It's a food. It's a veiny egg pod. It's called a veiny egg pod. and it's from the avatars and it's from the avatars

Merlinjust anybody can go in there and see that you should have to pay a quarter and look through a hole that's not the kind of thing I wanted at Disney

Maxyou gotta take a picture of this for the show notes how veiny is it oh it's quite veiny no I think it's some sort of chocolate treat

AlexI hope

Merlinis it a snack in Alex's terms

Alexare you gonna eat the veiny egg treat

Merlinhow fuckable is it Alex

AlexOh my God.

MerlinIt looks like a sex thing.

AlexIt does look. No, here, Merlin, I'm sending.

MaxIt looks, it's very upsetting. It's simultaneously, it looks like a nut, but also something about him.

AlexNo, I was going to say like the head of like an alien penis because it's like veiny on it. Is it canon?

MaxDo the avatars have balls?

AlexBecause maybe that's meant to represent their balls. No, no, they fuck with their tails. You wouldn't be able to horseback ride it. Where does the pea go? Oh, interesting.

MerlinOut of the tail. Everything happens to your tail. It's like a cloaca.

MaxBut if they have no balls, where is the pee stored?

MerlinSo like their tail, I think their tail is like an Ethernet cable or a USB-C cable in Alex's case. You can plug it into your dragon horse or you can use it to make Dookie and pee.

MaxOh, you know what? Veronica and I rewatched Avatar this week. We got so jazzed about the Avatar world and Veronica had never seen it. And she was like, based on this theme park, I bet this movie must be amazing. and we went and re-watched it.

MerlinEveryone's talking about it.

MaxI went and re-watched it. First of all,

Alexdo you know when that movie came out? Two thousand and... Ten maybe? Two thousand and... Two thousand and ten. Two thousand and nine. Oh, close. Two thousand and nine.

MaxSo it's ten years old.

AlexYeah.

MaxNow, basically my impressions of that movie, if I had to describe it before seeing it, I would have said, I remember that it had really cool visual effects and it looked really beautiful, but the story was completely forgettable and it was like a poorly made movie. So now I went back and re-watched it and I have the exact opposite feelings. Most of the CGI and the visual effects look like dog shit. It just aged so well.

MerlinIt looks like a demo reel.

MaxIt looks like a PlayStation game.

MerlinIt looks like something that ships with your LG TV to show off the power of 4K. It's like, oh, okay, all right, I get it. There's an alien girl who skis on a ball and then it's red. You're like, what is happening?

MaxWho wrote this? Oh, and then the ball explodes. Wow, I love my TV. It does not look good. No. But it was a pretty enjoyable film. It moved it. Listen, I see a lot of movies that are worse than Avatar.

MerlinWell, it honors the troops.

MaxI see a lot of movies that are worse than Avatar. I felt like it was a pretty well-paced, good action movie. It was a fine action movie, especially the first act I thought was really good. They had a lot of interesting exposition, and they got through it at a nice clip. It did drag. I feel like all of these movies get really boring in the third act when they start punching each other.

AlexSo Courtney Weaver is a snack.

MaxI'm telling you, that movie had a lot of problems, but they're not with the script and the pacing. It's a fine film.

AlexIs this the after show? I don't know. It's as good as any Marvel movie I've ever seen.

MerlinI wonder if you'll say that about the Avengers.

AlexIn the after show, I'm going to eat this, but I don't want you now. I watched Avatar. Oh, this is definitely where we're in the Avatar. No, we're not.

MerlinYou didn't say something funny. We can't go to the after zone without a funny.

AlexFind the funny. Hell damn ass. Hell damn ass fuck cunt. No one will say cunt. No one will say cunt.

MerlinOnly we get to use that word.

129. The Right Amount of Horny

Show notes

Transcript

129. The Right Amount of Horny

Show notes

Transcript

0:00

0:20

0:25

0:26

0:27

0:30

0:39

0:40

1:01

1:12

1:13

1:14

1:20

1:25

1:31

1:34

1:36

1:43

1:48

1:49

1:56

1:57

2:03

2:07

2:09

2:12

2:14

2:16

2:22

2:29

2:34

3:05

3:12

3:27

3:42

3:44

3:47

3:53

4:01

4:32

4:53

4:54

4:56

4:58

5:04

5:06

5:11

5:19

5:21

5:32

5:34

5:42

5:46

5:48

5:57

5:59

6:01

6:03

6:09

6:12

6:13

6:18

6:21

6:38

6:40

6:42

6:45

6:47

6:47

6:49

6:55

7:05

7:11

7:12

7:17

7:38

7:38