127. Astronaut Bread

AlexThis is Do By Friday, a weekly challenge podcast with Merlin Mann, Alex Cox, and Max Temkin. This week's challenge, spook yourself.

MerlinHi Merlin. Hey guys, how's it going? Good. Oh boy. You want to introduce me or anything?

Speaker AHi Merlin, I'm Anthony. How are you?

MerlinHi, Anthony. How are you?

Speaker AI'm good.

MerlinWelcome to Dubai Friday.

Speaker AThank you very much. Merlin. Yes. A thousand years ago, when the world was new, I met you very briefly at TechServe in New York.

MerlinYou are kidding me. With OmniGroup.

Speaker AFor an OmniFocus beta event, all the nerds gathered in the center of the island of Manhattan to hear the to-do man talk about the to-do program.

MerlinThat place was amazing.

MaxI love that place. Are you an OmniFocus cuck?

Speaker AYou know what? Here's the thing. I try it very often.

MerlinI thought you liked OmniFocus.

MaxI am. I'm an OmniFocus cuck.

Speaker AI find that my life isn't complex enough to need all these recursive lists.

MerlinHave you tried task paper, Anthony?

Speaker AI used to be very religiously into task paper, yeah.

MerlinWell, as long as we're pivoting to a productivity podcast, what do you use to do task management these days?

Speaker AWhat I used to do task management these days is just the little notes app in my iPhone. It's giving me heartburn. Okay. Our guest this week on the- And it just, with a little checkbox. Sorry, guys. My life is pretty simple.

MaxOur guest this week is Anthony Carboni from- Wow. I'm not even clear what you do. I think he makes the new Star Wars movies, right?

Speaker AThat's me, J.J. Abrams.

AlexI've actually been a fan of Anthony's work for quite a while. I'm wondering if either of you know this sound. Nothing?

Speaker AI do, and that gives me PTSD.

AlexWhat's up, guys? You're thinking a lot about my iPad. Hey, guys.

MaxI think I love my iPad more than most human beings.

AlexOh, but then you start talking about plants versus zombies.

MaxThis is a good episode. It's Baby Anthony. That's when we met.

Speaker ALil Baby Anthony. That's a show that I used to host for Revision 3 called Bite Jacker. Yeah, a world of goo is in here. Oh, sorry. Oh, my. It was all about independent games when that was a thing nobody had heard of.

MaxLooking back on the Rev3 days when you and I met, there's been a few times in different places in Tekken games where they were just like, you can look back at it and be like, this is where this whole friend group, this whole culture got started. And clearly in retrospect, it wasn't really the product that was being put out. It was more of the people that they had there. There was some really cool.

Speaker ANo, I understand you're saying we didn't do anything of quality, but we were pretty cool. It was such a good group of people, right? Thanks, yeah. I just ran into. Not even the compliment sandwich, just the bread

AlexYep, yep

MaxI ran into Brian Brushwood the other day Oh, I love Brian Brushwood At Magic Show Do you guys need me for this one? I think you want to call back in like 15 minutes?

MerlinYeah, let me just call back in like 15 minutes

Speaker ANo, Brian Brushwood is a magician And basically professional con man is the way he He's very colorful Yeah, and he does a show Well, he does the modern rogue but he was doing a show called Scam School at the time where he would show people how to pull off little cons and scams. He showed me how to eat a light bulb.

MaxSo long before Dubai Friday, I did a— I can show you before I leave, Alex. I did a podcast with my friend Patrick where we re-watched the first season of Lost, and we wanted to talk to an expert in something about every episode of Lost to try and learn something. And we wound up actually getting a lot of people involved. By the end, we started off just, like, talking to, like, literally anyone on Twitter who would respond to us, but including, like, a guy who was an extra on an episode. And we were just like, so what was it like? And he's like, I don't know. I stood around, and then they shot my scene or whatever.

By the end, we got, like, people who were – we got, like, Javi came on, and, like, all these people were, like, involved in the production of Lost. So it turned out to be a cool project. But I will never forget that there's this pretty bad episode of Lost that's, like, Sawyer's backstory. And we were like, fuck. Like, we have to learn – I guess we, like, have to come up with something to talk about. And I had this idea of like maybe there's someone who knows a lot about con men and we can just talk about con men. That could be an interesting topic. Oh, okay. So I went on Twitter and I was like, does anyone know anything about con men? And you replied to me and you were like, my friend Brian knows about con men. And that's how I learned about – that's how I got into this whole world.

Speaker AThat's so funny because the other day I was trying to figure out how you met Brian. It was one of those things where I was like, how did they meet? I can't – oh, well, that's cool.

MaxAnd another piece of ancient Anthony history is you met, how did you meet your wife?

Speaker AOh, yeah, yeah. I was going to get a clip of this from you before I left, too. I met my wife, well, I met my wife a couple times at parties when I moved to San Francisco, but she did not remember me. I made no impression on her whatsoever. And then a few weeks later, I received my Kickstarter-backed copy of Cards Against Humanity. and I went on Twitter and I invited her and three friends that we had in common to come out and play Cards Against Humanity

and she came out and we picked each other's answers all night and then immediately started dating and now we are married. We met over Cards Against Humanity and then when I actually met you maybe for the first time in person I think it was at a GDC thing and I told you about this and you were like, oh my God, Max got this look in his eyes like, the user case I've been looking for.

This is what I've been looking for for the brand.

AlexI know for sure there's Cards Against Humanity children. Oh no, no.

MaxAnd they're like fully,

Alexthere's like seven.

Speaker ATheir first words were Pac-Man uncontrollably guzzling cum. Oh my God.

MaxThat's it. There's like eight year old children who now who are born because their parents met Cards Against Humanity.

AlexOh, God, no. Oh, it's so true. Oh, God, I'm so upset.

Speaker AYou're complicit, Alex. Oh, that's so sweet. Why would you be upset about that?

AlexOh, I am complicit. Max, don't listen. Max, you can't listen. Merlin, there are so many times that girl, there. Oh, no, I can't. No, okay. No, tell me. No, no. Cards is a very good, in college, it's like the number one way for nerds to get laid. Like, especially if you're like the cool, edgy.

MerlinThe actual, like, intercourse?

AlexAre you just talking about finger banging? Oh, no, no, no. Yeah.

MerlinFull on.

AlexWomen don't have intercourse. What are you talking about?

MerlinOkay. One of them brings a black card. One brings a white card.

AlexYeah.

MerlinMommy and daddy love each other very much.

AlexDid you know there is a Cards Against Humanity pornography program?

MerlinWhat?

AlexYep. Yep. I didn't know that. There was at one point. We used the video of our reactions in a panel at one point. It wasn't. We all watched it together at work.

Speaker ACan you explain the mechanics of this?

AlexOh, yes. Of course. there is a mother and a daughter and the daughter has brought her boyfriend. Sounds like a Ted Cruz thing. And then they're holding Cards Against Humanity and then they start to fuck. That is it. Okay.

Speaker ASo it's kind of like a cameo.

AlexThat's the whole story. Yeah, it's like Stan Lee showing up in a Marvel movie.

Speaker AIt's not really a Cards Against Humanity porn, but it's there.

AlexOur designers were very upset because it was also clearly a counterfeit version and they were holding it upside down. it was Helvetica, but not Helvetica New Bold. So it was stressful for everybody.

MerlinOh, God.

Speaker AWe left a very scathing comment on RedTube about this.

AlexI don't remember how we found that. Because I think, oh, I hope someone on Twitter gave it to us rather than one of my coworkers being, hey, you know what I came across last night? And I've just blocked it from my memory.

MerlinI came across my cards. all the way. I took all of my cum.

Speaker ABut luckily they're high quality, waxy coated cards. And so you can just wipe them right down.

So you turn this back into a wholesome angle. When I told Max about this, He was like, oh my God, what can we do? And I was like, is there a way? He was like, I'm so happy you're the first person that's told me that you're getting married after meeting Cards Against Humanity. What can we do? And I said- I also knew Jessica independently of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was very excited about this. So I was like, hey, you've got that machine where you print cards at conventions, right? And you were like, yeah. And so I sent Max my guest list for my wedding, and everybody's table card was their name as a Cards Against Humanity card.

So it was very sweet. It was a very kind thing for Max and the cards people to do for us.

MaxThat's so nice. I have a lot to talk about this week. Let's get some note cards going.

AlexMerlin, do you want to say something nice about Max?

Speaker ASomebody said something nice about me. I have to ignore it immediately. Let's go.

MerlinI had a question for our guest. You guys can overlook it, but can I ask it quick?

Speaker AYes, you in the front. Please.

MerlinYes, thank you very much. Long time, Hoovian. um you what i'm trying to figure out i can't find this on youtube you were somehow involved with the day of the doctor yes uh tell me what tell me what you did with that it was a bbc stream i saw veronica but what did you veronica belmont but what was your involvement with that yeah so

Speaker Aum that was uh it's the 50th anniversary 50th anniversary of doctor who and they were the best

Merlinepisode of doctor who it was very good it was very good episode no more it's gonna make you cry someday, Max. It's going to make you cry. No! All 13! It's going to make you cry someday, Max. Add it to the cry list.

Speaker AYou're going to love it. You're going to love it. So they were simulcasting it on BBC America and they were doing a live thing at the YouTube space in LA and Veronica was doing a panel and I think who was on it? I think Grant Imahara was on it and I think Phil DeFranco was on it and then I was...

MerlinThe Adam the experimental show. What's his name? Grant, he's the guy from that show.

Speaker AHe's from that show. Yeah, Mythbusters.

MerlinPhil DeFranco show? That's it. Annie DeFranco? I don't know.

Speaker AIt was Annie DeFranco from Mythbusters. So I was out in the... You're funny, Anthony. Well, thank you. I was out in the audience watching with the crowd, because they let like a hundred Doctor Who, like super Whovian mega fans in to watch this thing. And I was out in the crowd just like interviewing people with their emotional reactions as it happened. And it was one of the coolest moments of my life because I've been a Whovian since forever. My dad and I used to just like sit and watch number four and number five on PBS.

Oh, totally.

MerlinWow, you're older than you seem.

Speaker AI'm very, I'm ancient.

MerlinI was watching four episodes and I want to say, because they were in Florida anyway, where we don't have culture, they were a few years old. So we were watching the later funny episodes were airing about 82, 83 is when I first saw it. And I was obsessed. Probably because I've talked about other places, but partly it was you never knew what was going to be on. You didn't know if they'd show one or if they'd show four. And it would be on in the Monty Python time slot, pretty late on a Saturday night where I was.

Speaker AAnd oh my God, that's so cool. I was in Central Florida as well.

MerlinShut your dirty whore mouth.

Speaker AWhere did you live? Altamont Springs. Altamont Springs.

MerlinRight outside of Maitland, like Longwood. Oh, shit dog. Is that like west of Orlando?

Speaker AYeah, yeah, yeah.

MerlinOh, my. I'm from Newport Richie. I'm from Newport Richie. Isn't that that concert where they had the Hells Angels? Huh? Yeah, Maitland.

Speaker AMaitland, yeah, yeah, yeah.

MerlinThe guy got stabbed, and then Mick Jagger looked at him. He's like, Diet Coke. so that's wild

Speaker AI'm from Pasco County

MerlinI'm practically your neighbor

Speaker Ayou went to did you go to the new school?

Merlinyeah I went to the new school that was south in Sarasota but yeah I'm totally from the Suncoast you're funny and you seem normal what is going on?

Speaker Awell you know I'm heavily drugged this morning

Merlindo you torture co-eds at a Whataburger?

Speaker Awhat's your secret? it's self-flagellation and I've got a horse hair shirt underneath this.

MerlinThat's my secret.

Speaker AI'm always nerdy. That's my secret. I'm always sad with myself. Aw. No, I would watch that Saturday night, the Saturday night rock block of British shows as well where it was like, Are You Being Served? And then Monty Python and then a couple Doctor Whos and All Creatures Great and Small. And like British stuff and anime stuff, I remember getting to like junior high and trying to talk to people thinking that this was the TV everybody watched. And people were just like, what are you talking about? What is this weird stuff that you're watching?

MerlinYou could really feel like this is before the internet that we had, and you really felt like you were literally like your own private time lord. Nobody is familiar with my backstory of what my thing is.

Speaker AIt was River Phoenix.

MerlinIt's so weird. You guys go ahead with your next thing. I don't have an anecdote. I just wanted to hear that. Thank you very much. That's fine. And I want to put a word in for Veronica Melmont. I think she's delightful.

Speaker AOh, Veronica's the best.

MerlinShe's a very nice person.

Speaker AShe's another one of those great people from that company that didn't do anything good or great. They did some stuff. probably she and pat norton had uh techzilla for a really long time oh that was such a good it's a

Maxvery good show uh i have uh some disney content to share with everyone hot disney content yeah we did a little bit coming in hot we did a little disney uh we did a little disney vacation last week so we went to disney world it was like a lot of design research for some new projects that we're doing so we kind of like walked around all the parks and tried to see everything it was research and took it we took a million we took a million pictures we saw the avatar has anyone been to the Avatar world? Yeah. What? Have you been there? Nobody is more surprised than me that I'm saying this, but it's probably

the coolest thing I've ever seen in my life. It's really beautiful.

AlexHave you been there, Merlin? No, I got stuff

Merlinabout... You think it's better

Alexthan Harry Potter? It's better than Harry Potter. Shut your mouth! I mean, to be clear, we're not talking about... We are talking about the themed park. No, no, no.

Speaker AWe are going to fight anybody who says that Harry Potter is better than the motion picture avatar. We're ready. Do you get to put your tail in a dragon and stuff? Think about all the memorable avatar characters.

MerlinRemember there's the one guy and then there's a veteran?

Speaker AGamora is there.

AlexAll of your favorites.

MerlinGarfield.

Speaker ADo they have big head characters walking around? Nermal.

MerlinThey're all there. The Iron Giant. Ready, Avatar 1.

MaxNo, you know, it made, it was, the land was so good, and it was so cool, and the production value of it was so amazing. and the rides were so cool. I'm filled with the desire to go back and watch Avatar. That's how good it was.

Speaker AThat didn't get me that hard. I think the reason it edges out the Harry Potter, the Wizarding World, is Universal made a couple weird decisions that I don't think Disney ever would have made. It's always supposed to be winter in Harry Potter world, but it's always 90 degrees and sunny in Florida. It's covered in snow on the rooftops, and you're like, this is bad and wrong. Just a few weird things

MerlinI wonder if it's different From the one in Hollywood Near Hollywood Because I thought It was the most immersive Not only was The Harry Potter ride One of the best Dark rides I've ever been on

Speaker AOh the ride slaps It's the best ride

MerlinOh my god Which ride are you talking about?

MaxForbidden Journey Which one is that? I didn't do any of They were all too scary for me

MerlinOh no it's scary It's like a dragon Is in your fucking face

MaxThis is the one Where you go into Hogwarts It's the Hogwarts ride So I went through the castle Because I heard the queue was cool It's very cool but I was too scared to ride the ride. It's a very cool cue. You didn't do it? No, I'm too scared.

AlexI'm learning a lot of...

MerlinOh, Max.

MaxI won't ride that ride. Oh, you gotta ride the ride. What? I didn't do the Avatar rollercoaster either. What?

MerlinYou gotta ride the ride.

MaxNo.

MerlinGuy, come see the baby.

MaxNo, no. I'm too scared.

AlexOh, my God. Have you... So, no Tower of Terror?

MaxNo. Max. I did that when I was a kid.

AlexYou gotta ride the ride.

MaxI think I had a panic attack. Oh, my God.

Speaker ANo, Harry Potter, the ride won't give you a panic attack.

MaxListen, I'm an adult. I'm an adult now. Did you ride the little hippogriff, buddy? Thank you. No. Did you get on the little hippogriff ride, though, buddy? No, no. Did you get your picture taken with the train? We got pictures with the train. Did you get on the choo-choo, buddy? I rode the train. Did you get a chocky frog? The tree witch came by, and I bought some... Did you get a wand? Some cakes.

Speaker ADid a little toad talk to you? Did a toad sing at you, buddy? Yeah.

Maxnow that I'm old it's all the wicked this way I'm able to admit here's what I'm able to admit now that I'm now that I'm 30 how old am I 31 number one beer almost all beer tastes bad and I don't need do not need to pretend to enjoy beer anymore where everyone is it's all a kind of a it's all some sort of kayfabe where people are pretending to enjoy bitter beers like I know a place where they have a beer even more bitter than this beer it all tastes like dog shit and it's awful.

And really, one of the highest expressions of a beer is like a Bud Light, just like a cold, just like a cold shit.

MerlinOh, a cold bush, a cold Natty Light.

MaxYes. That is a great drink experience that millions of dollars of R&D have gone into.

MerlinI'm glad somebody's saying this.

MaxThank you. Thank you. Thank you for your bold, brave statement. I enjoy it. I like a Coors. I like a... I like a Tecate with a lime. A Tecate is such a good beer. That's a great beer.

Speaker AI like a... I like a Trader Joe's Simpler Times. That's an underrated beer.

MaxI like a Paps Blue Ribbon A Paps Blue Ribbon is one of the best beers

AlexI would rather you say problematic things About Wonder Woman than about beer Because the tweets are going to get so bad Wonder Woman is the Tecate of superheroes

MaxBeers taste disgusting And I'm so tired of people Making them worse somehow They're like oh

AlexYou are preaching to the choir Bitter beers aren't good anymore

MaxNow it's all about sours But Alex it's basically a bottle of bread

AlexWhy would you not want it? You would think well that's the thing they've just ruined the bread it's ruined bread in liquefied form now it's like astronaut bread exactly it's space bread title

Merlinspace bread are you ready to consume

Speaker Ayou drink three or four astronaut breads and then you strap yourself to the floating toilet and you're there for like an hour

Alexnow I'm almost here for it strap on a tinkle bag beers do not taste good

Maxand roller coasters do not feel good to be on they feel to me

Alexoh no maybe it's

MaxMaybe I'm like...

MerlinTake it to medium.

MaxMaybe I'm on the wrong end of the bell curve here, but it just feels like you're having a panic attack and you're trapped in this place for like six to ten minutes and it's completely miserable and you feel like you're going to die. And I get that some people feel euphoric afterwards because you didn't die, but I would prefer to just skip the whole thing. And I know I don't get the euphoria, but also I don't feel like I'm going to die. It's great. It's just a nice even keel.

AlexYou should have saved this for the segue to the challenge, really. What is the challenge?

MerlinI'm very... Oh, the spook. I don't know what's happening on this show. We have two challenges, two to seven guests. I'm so confused.

MaxNo, we're down to just one guest.

MerlinHow about this?

Speaker AIt's the two challenge per guest rule.

MaxOh, that's such a good rule. Challenge gauntlet.

Speaker AYeah.

MaxOh, my gosh. So the Avatar land was incredible. Did you go at night? Did anyone go at night? Oh, yeah. Yes. So at night, it's all phosphorescent. It all lights up. So the entire park is bathed in black light.

Speaker AAnd Nermal comes out in his ceremonial robes and they glisten.

MaxIt's really beautiful. There's like a guy in an Ed 209 suit and he comes stomping out.

Speaker AI love you. The computer animated boy that was the man that was turned into a cat. He was in every movie for like 18 months and then disappeared. Who was that man? Who was that man cat? I don't know what you're talking about.

MerlinHe's like a baby circus? Like a little mo-cap man?

Speaker ANo, he was a regular actor. He's a man who was turned into a cat? He was the man in Avatar that gets turned into a cat and becomes the best cat.

MaxOh.

Speaker AAnd that's like Avatar. That's what Avatar's about. Catboy actor Avatar.

MaxYou were talking about the guy from the movie?

Speaker AYes. And he was also in Clash of the Titans. Is his name Sully?

MaxYeah, sure.

Speaker AYes, that sounds right. Let's go with Sully. I'm not worried. Is that his character name or is that who he is? Sam Worthington. Sam Worthington. There we are. He's a man who was in everything for two years.

MaxYes. And then where's Sam Worthington? Oh, he's the Winklevoss twins in that movie. Who's that?

MerlinNo.

AlexNo, no.

MaxNo, no.

MerlinHe's discount Chris Pratt. That's Lex Luthor.

AlexYeah. Who's that? That's Arm and Hammer. Arm and Hammer.

MaxArm and Hammer. I'm saying they're the same. But what I'm saying is they have the same thing of, I'm like, why is this guy? Like, why are they trying to make this guy happen?

Speaker AOh, the Lone Ranger. We're talking about the Lone Ranger.

MerlinSo stop trying to make Worthington. Yeah.

MaxOkay. All right. Don't you guys feel like there's some cabal in Hollywood that's like, we will make you like Armie Hammer. You will see a movie with him in it.

Speaker AI think I might like Armie Hammer. Now that you've reminded me of Armie Hammer, I'm worried for Armie Hammer.

MerlinHe's in that one where the boy comes in the fruit.

Speaker AYep. He was in The Man from Uncle.

MerlinOh.

Speaker AWas that Bill Cosby? He was the American. Yes. It was Bill Cosby.

MerlinAnd he came in a peach.

Maxwith the guy, what is happening with the guy?

Speaker AAnd then Jackie Chan was there, but he was not from there.

MerlinWas Jackie Chan in that?

Speaker AAnd it was like, I don't understand what's going on in this city.

MerlinAnd then he broke his arm.

MaxYeah. All right. I had a lot of thoughts on the food safety and just general clumeliness of Disney World. Okay. All right. I'm unsurprised. I wanted to cover with you guys real quick. Shocker. Now, first of all, Disney World has got to be one of the most disgusting places in the world. No. It's crawling. It's just teeming with children, and they're vomiting, and they're shitting, and they touch everything with their hands.

Speaker AOf all the weeks to bring me on the show, why would you do this to me? Why would you do this to me?

MerlinAnthony, are you someone who thinks about these things?

Speaker AI am literally here as an official representative of Star Wars.

MerlinWhy am I on this segment?

MaxOh, no. Can I get a coffee? Oh, no, my Star Wars. people and people i know i will tell you for a fact people do not wash their hands i was i just didn't see anyone wash their hands and also when we were going around disney there was lots of places where you could get food and you could not wash your hands so an example is in a france pavilion at epcot they have this whole sort of buffet style though people on average don't worry

Speaker Aabout or think about this as much as you know what it's almost as it's almost as though that It's almost as though people go their entire lives healthy, long lives. People are living longer and longer these days. And somehow, they eat a hot dog at Disney World, and they're cool. They're fine.

MerlinWell, let me see if I understand this right. You're saying there are people who get through their day without constant invasive thoughts about washing their hands, is that thing you're saying?

Speaker AI've not seen it. I haven't done any research. This is not a peer-reviewed thing.

MerlinAre you a Star Wars doctor?

Speaker AI'm a medical droid, yeah. I understand that there's a bunch of...

MaxOh, boy. I know that there's a bunch of hogs who go to Disney World, and they don't wash themselves. Listen to me.

MerlinThey probably show up dirty.

MaxYes, they do, though. That's the thing is they do show up dirty.

Speaker AThe Walt Disney Corporation doesn't spray them with mud before they come in.

MaxIt should be like where you go to prison in a movie, and they delouse you before they put you in the clank.

Speaker AOkay. Uh-huh.

MaxYeah.

Speaker ASo there should be an airlock system. You get off the monorail. You get off the monorail, and then you get into a two-stage airlock system with a clean room. That's what you're saying. Yes.

MaxIt should be like...

Speaker AYou get out the other side. You get a fast pass. That's good at any of the locations.

AlexActually, that should be part of the fast pass experience. They should shave you to get the...

MerlinOh, you're saying you call a 2319. 2319, and they shave all your fur off?

MaxOkay. When we went around... Okay. I have a number of...

Speaker AI had eyebrows this morning, but Donald Duck said I couldn't keep them.

MerlinYou're filthy. You're not ready for the theme park.

Speaker AGarsh.

MerlinLooks like you haven't washed in a while. We haven't gotten anywhere near Peter Pan's flight. I've been in Goofy's decontamination grotto.

Speaker AYou know, if you get into Goofy's decontamination grotto and you look up and to the right from where they delouse you, there's a hidden Mickey. Now we went around Epcot around the world

MaxWhich is probably the best

Speaker AI love it That's like as a nerdy kid

MaxEpcot was like the dopest thing Especially like the international thing It's amazing And then as you become an adult It becomes the corniest best thing It's still very, it's the most magical thing at Disney to me.

AlexYou have both had the opposite experiences as an adult. You're like, wow, the infrastructure in this is so cool. And isn't it great? Like, I'm so, am I wrong?

MerlinAre you talking about Epcot v. Magic Kingdom?

Speaker AYeah, the experimental prototype community. You enjoyed Epcot as a child.

MerlinWe used to take a monorail ride. It used to be, time was, 1980. you could take a bespoke monorail ride out to where there was a bunch of land and a sign.

Speaker AYeah, it cost five Bs to get on there. It was five Bs for a quarter. Five Bs for a quarter.

MerlinIt was the style at the time. And they swapped out the Walt Disney story for get ready because Epcot will be coming. And people will live there. Because what could be better than living in someplace like Celebration, but it's the future. Oh boy.

AlexIt's so cool and such a bad idea.

Speaker AEpcot felt like the place where we were all finally going to wear jumpsuits all the time.

AlexI know. I was so excited.

MaxIf they deloused you and outfitted you with a jumpsuit, I would be so much happier. You have a very different idea of vacation, I think, than most people do.

MerlinOkay, wait a minute. Hang on. There's a way we can leverage this. One thing you notice at a theme park, especially at Disney theme park, is there are a lot of people there wearing a lot of flair. You get badges. You trade badges.

Speaker AI'm a pin man myself.

MerlinWhat if you got a jumpsuit as a way for everyone to know that now you're a clean boy?

AlexHe's doing the British thing, I think.

MerlinYou can identify a clean boy because he's got an orange jumpsuit with a goofy on. Yes. Yes, yes. Anyways, so people are there and they're not washing their hands, Max.

MaxSo in the France Pavilion, they have this whole buffet line where you can get eclairs and treats. And you exit out into this little covered area where you sit and eat your food. And there was one bathroom stall for men and one for women. And there was like a 20-minute line to get into the bathroom. And I'm sitting here with a tray full of treats. I'm like I'm melting ice cream. And I couldn't wash my hands, so I couldn't eat it. Oh, no.

Speaker AYou don't bring a hand sanitizer with you? That will not do.

MaxThat's a...

MerlinPlease, Anthony, don't open this door. No, I'm baiting him.

MaxI'm specifically baiting him.

MerlinYou're baiting everyone.

MaxI'm specifically baiting him. That's the second part. First you wash and then you sanitize.

MerlinWhy would you shampoo if you've got conditioner? Oh, don't ask. Please don't ask. Listen. Can I show you guys another thing?

Speaker AListen. This is from the... Here's my favorite thing. You stop. You stop me go. Here's what I like about Epcot. Epcot was like, was, we were talking about this a little bit in the car on the way here. Epcot was built during a time when international flights were not within reach of as many people as they are now. And you certainly didn't take your entire family on an international flight as much as people do now. And so like, the whole idea of Epcot was Walt Disney going, well, if I can make people,

like, if people want to go on one vacation a year, and they're thinking about going to like Europe, or they're thinking about going to Asia, can I convince them to go to Disney World instead by putting a pagoda there?

And it is the best thing, because Disney World is also the most trafficked Disney park by European and Asian travelers. And so you watch a bunch of British people walking through the Disney idea of what England is.

AlexOh, it's... When you go to Japan It's amazing It's wild Japan is like

Speaker AJust bonsai trees And pagodas And like

AlexAnd there's Totoro And all this

MerlinSmall affordable radios

AlexYeah

Speaker AIt's amazing And you'll watch Taurus go through And you can tell When they get to the country They're from Because this look Just they turn white Yeah They turn white And kind of almost Seething with rage Yeah Especially in England Because England is like Literally A cobblestone street It's like biscuits

MerlinAnd beer

Speaker AYeah Yeah, and Shakespearean performers come out once an hour and do bad Shakespeare improv or the story of Robin Hood, and then you can buy a kilt there. And that's England. That's the UK.

MaxThey had Beatles merchandise in the story.

Speaker AOf course they didn't mind the gap, everybody. You're at Epcot now. I love it. And so as a kid, I loved it because it's entirely staffed by people from that country. They bring in college kids, and they go, you want to live here for a year? You can just work at England and be English. Congratulations. Who you are is what you get paid for. And so as a kid, I was like, wow, I'm meeting people from other countries. And then as an adult, I'm like, what an adorable little strip mall idea of international travel this is.

AlexIt is adorable. It's just so darn. And I mean, they added Steve Jobs to the big old world.

MaxWas that Steve Jobs or was that Wozniak?

AlexHonestly.

MaxI thought it was Wozniak.

AlexTo which? What did they add? So when you go in the dome and you're going through the little teleology ride. Oh, thank God. That was going to drive me. Yeah. The golf ball. Yeah.

MaxSo it's a little like teleology ride where they're like, first we had paper and then there was the printing press and there was this and that. Yeah. And then it shows like a guy tinkering in the garage that became Apple. Oh, yeah. But you only see him from the back. But I'm pretty sure it's Waz. Yeah. Like it did not.

AlexWho would be like, ah, yes, everyone's favorite entrepreneurs.

Speaker AThat ride was a little scary.

AlexWhat?

Speaker AIt was a little scary. Can I tell you something about this ride? There are two rides that my parents would just groan whenever I told them I wanted to go on. One was Spaceship Earth, because Spaceship Earth is literally a history lesson for 40 minutes. It's so lame. It's so lame, and I love it.

MerlinAnd you can see a drop ceiling in it, and it's like, well, AT&T is going to change this.

Speaker AOh, you remember at one point in the 90s, at the end, everything was fiber optics. It was like, fiber optic cable will change the way we live. And it was just like, okay, calm down.

MerlinI haven't been to Epcot since Christ was a corporal, but in the 80s, it was obviously stuff like if you had wings, which was a great ride that was free. And you could perform when they had tickets. And it had air conditioning, and you could sit down. And it was if you had wings. That was Delta Dream Flight. It started as Eastern. If you had wings, and that was great. But in Epcot, don't get me started on Epcot, but the corporate sponsorships were overwhelming. Was it Kraft?

Speaker AEpcot was the beginning.

MerlinDidn't Kraft sponsor the farming one?

Speaker AYeah, the land.

MerlinAnd an oil company? Didn't Exxon sponsor the dinosaur ride?

Speaker AThat was my second favorite ride as a kid. That's a good ride. The World of Energy. No, Ellen's Energy Adventure. That's what it is now. Oh, boy. So it used to be the World of Energy, and it was the Exxon Mobile World of Energy. Yes, that's right. That's right. And it's like dinosaurs died to give us unlimited oil that does no wrong.

MerlinAre you saying without dinosaurs I wouldn't be able to drive a car?

Speaker AThat's right, Billy. But now you can drive it forever with no consequences.

MaxThe premise of this ride.

Speaker AAlso, fuel is very cool.

MaxIt's gone. It's gone now, but I'm sure you can see it on YouTube. And the premise, first of all, it's got to be one of the longest rides at Disney World.

Speaker AThat is a 45-minute ride.

MaxYeah, it is. But also physically one of the largest rides. Well, it's one of those ones where it was enormous.

Speaker AThe cart is like a full section of a theater.

MaxSo you go in a theater, and you're standing in this room, and you're standing, and it's like one of those screens that goes all around you in a huge space with hundreds of people. And Ellen DeGeneres comes on, and she's in the set of her living room from the TV show Ellen.

You can't leave. And she's watching Jeopardy, and she falls asleep in... Oh, and her neighbor is Bill Nye for some reason, and Bill Nye comes over. And then she falls asleep watching Jeopardy.

Speaker AThis has to be Bill Nye's biggest regret in the world, by the way.

MaxOh, yeah.

Speaker AAnd then she's in Jeopardy.

MaxThen she has a dream where she's on Jeopardy, and she's playing against Bill Nye and her bitter rival from high school, who's like a know-it-all. Who's played by somebody, right? I don't remember. It was Sam Worthington, I think. Maybe Armie Hammer. The topic of the Jeopardy round is energy, and Ellen doesn't know anything about energy. So Bill Nye is like, hang on, Ellen, we're in your dream. We can pause time, and we'll go into a marvelous world of energy. And then you come into a movie theater, and you sit down in a movie,

or maybe at this point you've already gone into a movie theater.

Speaker AThe movie theater seats begin to move.

MaxThat's what happens. But after Bill Nye is like, let's go explore energy, the screen lifts up, and the entire – you're in like an AMC-sized movie theater, like a big-ass movie theater. And it just starts to move on a track, and it goes through this whole dinosaur world, and you go in to learn about all the history of oil and everything. And at one point, Ellen's like, Bill, I've been hearing a lot about this wind and solar power. Is that anything? He's like, it'll never work.

Speaker AAnd you have to imagine that every three months, Bill Nye gets some check for 38 cents for doing World of Energy back in 1994. And he just looks at that check and he's like, this is the devil's 38 cents.

MaxCan I ask you a question about germs, though, before we move on? Which is, so I have this video. I send it to you guys, and you don't need sound, but just look at this device. So this is in Magic Kingdom at a restaurant called Pecos Bill, but they have these everywhere in the park. This is like how you get a fork.

Speaker AOh, yeah, dip your hand in a pile of forks, yeah.

MaxNo. No, no, no, no, no, no. You press the button, and a fork comes out, and that's like your fork. Yeah, that's the future. and then you take it and you go. Great.

AlexYeah.

MaxI do not think that that is sanitary.

Speaker AOkay. What do you guys think? I think I'm not surprised that you don't think it's sanitary.

AlexI see what you're saying. I understand what you're saying because all of the hands are going into the little dingus. But it's still, I'd rather take this gamble than, I mean, I know that they're going to get shit if they're put in the little plastic things. Like that's the ideal situation.

Speaker AI don't understand why they don't just have, when you need a fork, a drone comes and lowers you a bespoke fork that's hermetically sealed that's just for you. Yeah, I've got a

Alexfucking fast pat. I want, I want... Merlin, did you not get the video?

MerlinOh, oh, oh, wait, I'm sorry. Is this your, is this your portrait thing of Veronica looking concerned?

Speaker APhones can do video now. Oh, okay. I don't watch videos.

MerlinOkay, let's see. Oh, oh, I see you turn it. It's got a Frontier theme. Yes, exactly. It's kind of like a tampon machine for utensils. Okay, got it. And why is that unsanitary? Because the hands are brought,

MaxFirst of all, you're touching the handle. Number one, you're touching the handle that everyone else touches. And then the forks are coming into this little dish, and probably people's disgusting fingers have rubbed up against the dish.

Speaker AHow are you?

MaxYou should record a podcast with Dan and never release it.

MerlinLike, every week. Just really burn this out of your system. You know, it's like running a border collie. Like, you just got to fucking wear them down. You need an outlet for this, Max.

Speaker ABecause here's the thing. Here's the thing. As somebody who listens to the show, this is a disproportionate amount of the conversation on the show, for sure. But, like, no. Really? Hang on. What? But walking around with Max, this doesn't come up. It doesn't come up.

MerlinI can't believe you've been in my office twice. It's mind-blowing to me.

MaxYour office was much more clean the second time I was there, and I complimented you on it.

MerlinWell, I'm trying. I'm trying real hard. Yeah, I use wipes to clean my dolls.

Speaker AWhat if you just did an hour of therapy before the podcast? An hour of therapy before the podcast. Oh, boy, that's good. And then you could talk about anything else.

MaxI think it's everyone else who's wrong. I think I'm caring about germs the right amount, which is I don't.

MerlinIf you did two hours of therapy and also talked about magic, would that be useful? Maybe get a massage at the end?

Speaker ASo last night, okay, last night I'm hanging out with some buddies at a bar, and Max is like, That's friend of the show, Phil. Friend of the show, Phil. Okay. So I'm hanging out with Phil and another one of the young horses and we're out having dinner and y'all are having dinner somewhere else and you're like, hey, we're gonna meet up with you at the bar after dinner. I'm like, great. And so an hour and a half later, I get a text, we're done with dinner, we're coming, we wanna do magic for you guys and I literally just text him back. I'm like, each of you, you and Jordan may each do one magic trick. You are allotted one magic trick.

No more than that.

MerlinIf you do more than that, I will be very cross. It's like letting somebody do anal on their birthday.

Speaker AYeah. I gave him a little coupon book for a massage, and he can pull a coin out of my ear. But I literally told him, I was like, I will be very cross with you, and I love you, and I support your hobbies.

Right. Exactly.

AlexMerlin, have you ever thought about tricking Max into therapy?

MaxI don't want to go to therapy because I don't want to go to therapy. to have diarrhea at Disney World.

AlexSuddenly there's just a really cool person appears in his life. Hey, let's go sit on this couch.

MerlinThere's a professional in the world who could help you a lot with what you just said. Yeah.

Speaker AHere's the thing.

MerlinI don't want to get diarrhea because I went to Disney World.

Speaker ANobody wants to get diarrhea at Disney World. You're not the only one that feels that way. But you're the only one

Merlinthat worries about it this much. Just take some Imodium and have fun.

Speaker AYou'll be fine. You can shit later

AlexBelieve me I know

Speaker APut a couple Kleenex boxes on your feet And ride the fucking Jungle Cruise

You're an improv guy You're gonna love the patter

AlexDick Dug Challenge. Dick Dug. Whoa.

Speaker AWhoa.

AlexReally? Whoa. Whoa. Oh, no. Should we talk about Jack? Remember the whole bit where we're like, oh, let's keep things on track. But fuck it. Let's talk about Jack Dorsey because this.

MerlinOh, my God. What a weird beard. I had this in the doc. So I know Max saw. I have some thoughts about this. I did read this article.

AlexI just have an opening statement about Jack Dorsey. He is absolutely a teenage girl. And there's nothing wrong with being a teenage girl. No. It sucks. It's really bad. I remember it.

MerlinBut here's the thing about most teenage girls.

AlexThey don't have a billion dollars? Yeah.

MerlinWell, yeah, accurate. But also, one thing, I can't speak for girls, but I can speak for teenagers, which is there's one incontrovertible fact in the world when you are a teenager, which is, fuck, I am so a fucking teenager right now. I am intractably a teenager. You know what I mean? I'm having all of the afflictions right now, and I'm intensely aware of that. Now, if one were potentially in that state but was unaware that they were a teenage girl, there ain't no amount of fasting going to fix that.

AlexNo, no magic ring.

MerlinJust live it. Just accept it. What do you wear?

MaxYou get like a jelly bracelet and you gossip? Can you guys explain the article?

Speaker AYeah, I refuse to give these people any more of my brain space or time. So I did not read this article.

MerlinOh, see, you know what? I've got to tell you the truth.

Speaker AI don't live in San Francisco anymore, Merlin. I don't have to do this shit.

MerlinThis came to me via political Twitter en masse, really. And it was via a woman's two—oh, yeah, Taylor Lorenz, who's very good, referenced this article saying, this schedule is literally the picture of a raging eating disorder. Wait, Merlin, you know Taylor Rohn's friend of the show. Oh, my God. And she said, basically, this sounds like an eating disorder. I'm not going to do it.

Speaker ANow spin around three times, wash your hands, and say friend of the show. Friend of the show.

AlexDamn it. Damn it.

Speaker AOh, God.

MerlinNow I got to start over.

AlexHugh, Hugh, Hugh. I'm not going to touch my head. Hugh, Hugh. I miss Wendy. Ooh, tonight's the big night. Tonight is the big night. I'm excited. Tonight's the big night? Mm-hmm.

MerlinFor what? What happens tonight? Survivor night.

AlexYeah.

MerlinThe thing is, I think Ding-a-ling Island should have come back as its own tribe, full stop. That's what I thought They did this once before

was going to happen.

Merlinin another season. I'm not going to talk about it. But each time they tease, oh, by the way, here's these people, they should fucking come back as a full tribe. Why are they not doing that?

MaxWell, do you know, have I ever told you Veronica's idea for Survivor Deja Vu? Oh, please tell me. It's probably the best. You know, I think about different gags, gimmicks, and things they could do on the show a lot. and this is the best one I've ever heard pitched. So the premise is it's Survivor Deja Vu and you play a season of Survivor and beforehand you tell people, you know how in previous seasons they have like the next season is like second chance and they take back like four or five people from the previous season.

MerlinAnd they'll also have like challenges, they'll bring in the challenge that somebody lost on

Maxand stuff like that. Yes, yes. So basically you have 20 people start off on the island and you tell them all, hey listen next season is a second chance season and so by coming on it's part of your contract that you agree to that you're willing if you get voted in or whatever by the fans you're coming back again so they're all prepared to do it and then they play a regular season of survivor with no twists or turns or gimmicks but they they just do a you know those games or their cooperation games where like everyone has to like agree to give something up or they do the survivor auction or things like that they sprinkle in a bunch of those and so there's lots of betrayals and things

like that okay the season's over somebody wins then they reveal the big twist the same 20 people are all coming back and they're going to be they're all back for a new season it's the same people the same tribes the same beach the same challenges it's a redo they're all coming they're all coming back and they're doing it again with all the emotional baggage and knowledge that comes

Merlinalong correct all this person double crossed me but but also i mean my first thought is well now and this is not always proved, there should be some twist to it. There's got to be some twist to it. But yeah, so the problem is, though, people come in prepared. This is something Sir Kusa said when we talked about this. He's seen 37 seasons of this show. And he was like, well, the thing is, you can't really prepare for anything because there will be some crazy switch-em-up at some point that there's always something new. Every season they have a new device that screws everything up. But in your case, you're saying you do that

and you could watch somebody like, say, a coach make all of the exact same mistakes over and over. The man, Coach, the man who never learns.

AlexRight. The warrior. See, the reason I like that, how do we know that this isn't already in their contracts? Like, you know what I'm saying?

MerlinThis could already be a thing. I got a feeling they don't get a check until after the reunion. I don't think they get a check

Alexbecause I'll bet there's a lot of people. Oh, no, definitely not.

MerlinYou know what I'm saying? Like who would not want, do not want to be there at that reunion.

AlexOh, for sure. Well, but, and that's the thing though. Like they, this could already be the contract and they just haven't found the right time yet. Cause this could just be like, they could just lie in wait because also they can change the rules at any time. So it could be that suddenly the, I know that they used to release the rule book, but what if now the contract says like, yeah, you, we don't have to give you a million dollars until you complete survivor. But they don't say how long it's going to be.

They completely change it up.

MerlinAnd it's always hanging over their head.

AlexYeah, like they don't know.

MerlinOh, that's really good.

Speaker ATen years later, they're in the prenatal ward. They're having their first child. The walls come down. It's been Survivor the whole time.

MerlinCome on in, guys.

Speaker ANow you got to choose which one of these four babies was actually yours.

MerlinYou can have fire in the form of Flint or a newborn.

MaxWhat were we talking about before Survivor?

MerlinWe were talking about an article that I don't want to get into trouble with talking about this article because I – first of all, I put a limit on Twitter on my phone and that's working out. So – but I don't want to get into a thing about this. I think what we can say somewhat incontrovertibly is that Jack Dorsey has a lot going on. And so this is an article on something called Make It. This is a CNBC something where they, I guess they did an interview with Jack Dorsey, and he gives his 11 wellness, and wellness is in quotes, his 11 wellness habits.

From no food all weekend to ice baths.

Speaker AWhere does Jack Dorsey put the jade egg?

MerlinIn his black hole, am I right? It's relevant humor on a Wednesday morning.

Speaker ADo a quick do a quick wrench with activated charcoal in the morning a quick activated charcoal gargle

MaxDo you have this in front of you that you can look at it?

AlexGive us the ball points. Yeah, I am I am looking at this right now

MerlinIs there a bulleted list of these 11 tips? Yeah? Yeah, they're in there cuz someone I mean they're like two There's like two two or three paragraphs mainly per tip. Yeah, okay If you've got it up Merlin you can go through the tips for us Well, I don't want to get in trouble

MaxI want you to get in trouble I said, you know, I went to Disney We went to the Hall of Presidents Because I hate myself I had to see it First of all, the Trump president I know we've speculated about this

MerlinOh no, no, no, no, Max, don't

MaxI know we've speculated about this Don't be problematic It's clearly Hillary They were very confident that Hillary was going to win And they started building a Hillary robot and they had to grab Trump's melted face onto it. And if you squint, you can sort of see.

Speaker AThey put a Trump mask on a Panchito Pistoles from the Three Caballeros and just rushed it out there.

MaxIt's so melty. And it's clearly Hillary's bone structure. Now, the other thing that I observed was I was surprised to see the decision of Walt Disney Imagineering. Show me your long form journal. Show me where this is all kept. They did not make the Trump robot as obese as the Taft robot.

MerlinOh, my God.

MaxWhen all the historical information that we have to compare indicates that Trump is as obese or more obese than Taft. Oh, my God. Max just pulled out an easel.

Speaker AThis is crazy.

AlexOh, look at the whiteboards being rolled in.

MerlinTrump is not even close to Ted. No, you're right. He is. Go Google it. He is. No, he's not. William Howard, you ever seen the picture of the bathtub with the workman?

Speaker AWell, surprisingly, they put Trump in the bathtub. Oh, my God. Which was weird. Oh, my God. Okay.

MerlinRecord deep.

Speaker AAll right. I have the Jack Dorsey thing up.

MerlinNow, listen. Some of these, so I don't get in trouble. I'm going to say some of these make a ton of sense.

Speaker ANo, number one makes sense to me. Meditating twice a day. Sure. Do that. Yes. Great.

MerlinYes, but, you know, I mean, like, there's just, oh, boy.

Speaker ANumber two, walking to work. But I'm waiting for the hockey stick of this because clearly this is going to.

MaxNot just walking to work. He walks.

Speaker AYeah. For two days, rain or shine, Dorsey says he has walked the five miles from his home.

MerlinTwo years.

Speaker ATo his office. Oh, for two years, rain or shine, Dorsey says he has walked the five miles from his office, from his home to his office in one hour and 15 minutes. All right, man. That's a little.

MerlinAll right, by itself, that's cool.

Speaker AThat's cool. It's good for everybody. Number three, doing the seven-minute workout. Okay.

MaxThe detail in the article is he walks so quickly that people would think he was jogging. He's just doing this weird shuffle.

MerlinHe looks like Dwight's cousin Moe's. He has an upsetting walk.

Speaker AHe's like one of the groups of old people in the mall in the morning that walks around the food court.

MaxHe runs like Steve Carell in that movie where in the VW bus.

Speaker ALike an embarrassed teenager saying bye and running off camera. Okay, I love you. Bye.

AlexBye.

Speaker ANumber four, saunas and ice baths. First, he sits in his barrel sauna, which is set at 220 degrees for 15 minutes. Barrel sauna. Then he hops into an ice bath for three minutes. Okay, that's very Finnish of him. That's fine. Number five, using a standing desk with a near-infrared bulb. Standing desk is fine. Infrared bulb is whatever.

AlexNo, but the whole infrared bulb thing, It makes it seem like he's just bathed in a red light in a dark room, right?

Speaker ASo this is different than like a seasonal effective light. This is like a greenhouse light. I got a sad light. I have an excellent sad light. But this is different than that, huh?

AlexI think so. Do I not know what different for red means?

MerlinWell, I mean, it's like it's such a Silicon Valley thing. Like it's not, I mean, it's one thing. And it's sort of like Syracuse was saying on ATP recently where it's like he has this whole approach to eating in a healthy way that basically comes down to just eat stuff you like but eat way less of it but that's so boring and that's such a such a like not a meme it's like what what has everybody been saying since time immemorial like exercise more and uh eat a little bit less like but that's so boring you need a hook you need something interesting and he's got an

Speaker Ainfrared light uh the the i will say okay now reading about this the research that says that near-infrared light may decrease some kinds of pain is a little wobbly. Oh, interesting. It's a little wobbly.

AlexI didn't know that.

Speaker AOkay.

AlexNo, Merlin, don't do it.

Speaker ABut near-infrared radiation also could be bad for the skin, right? So, okay, sure. So this is not an entirely proven thing, but if you want your light, have your light. I think that's fine.

MerlinThere's no single one of these by itself. Number six, he starts the day with an ice-cold bath.

Speaker AOkay. Ice-cold. Sure.

MerlinSubmerging yourself in icy-cold water redirects blood flow. Wow, this was definitely written by a doctor.

Speaker AYep.

Merlinwhich can, I want to learn more about redirecting blood flow, which can help with things like inflammation and swelling. So he's a swollen, he's a swollen boy.

Speaker AWhat I like to do is reverse my blood flow like three times a day. Because what I like to do is it goes heart out. Usually I like to go into the heart for like 15 minutes a day.

MerlinOh, it's like breathing, but for a heart. And that gets out the toxins? Does that get out toxins? Yeah.

MaxDo you have an app for that?

MerlinI do.

Speaker AIt reminds me on my watch every 15 minutes to reverse the blood flow. Reverse your blood. The polarity of my blood. Bleed backwards, bleed backwards, bleed backwards. Yeah, this is all, like, listen, I lived in SF and now I live in LA. So my resistance to wobbly healthy stuff is like a little low. I'm kind of like let people do whatever as long as it's not hurting anybody. Taking supplements, sure. One meal per weekday, this is wrong.

MerlinHow about we, well, let's go now. Who wants to take eight and nine? Because I think somebody should do eight and nine. Maybe our guest.

Speaker AEating one meal per weekday. That's a problem. Yep. And keep going. That's a problem. He only eats dinner. Yes. Sometime between 6.30 and 9 p.m., he has a meal of fish, chicken, or steak with a salad, spinach, asparagus, or Brussels sprouts. He has mixed berries or some dark chocolate for dessert. Oh, if he's a good boy, he gets a little reward.

AlexA little mixed berries.

Speaker AAnd also sometimes drinks red wine. The first two weeks of eating only one meal per day were hard for Dorsey, he says, but he's noticed changes, like Christian Bale in The Machinist, I'm sure. During the day, I feel so much more focused. You have this very focused point of mind in terms of this drive.

MerlinThe results have been incredible.

Speaker ANo. No. You can't starve yourself to focus. Keep going.

MerlinHow about number nine there, buddy?

Speaker AHe also says he sleeps better. Okay, this is not okay. Fasting all weekend. Yeah, sure. Well, you've eaten so much during the week. Yeah. Five days of mixed berries?

MaxCalm down. So many berries. So many berries. I think what's going on here is pretty clear, which is I think everything I've heard from and read about Jack Dorsey, you know, I read that. Was it the Nick Bilton book?

Speaker AWait, wait, wait. Watching Twitter. Wait a second. Here's what I love. After 8 and 9, 10 and 11, they just go back to normal. They throw 8 and 9 in the middle. They don't cap it with 8 and 9. 10 and 11 are tracking his sleep and journaling. They tried to sneak it in. They tried to sneak this stuff in.

MerlinYeah. Oh, they did it like a banana sandwich.

Speaker AI'm sorry. The Nick Bilton book. I just thought that was like, why would CNBC hide this stuff in the middle?

MaxYeah, everything I've read about Jack Dorsey, and I know people who worked with, or you knew Jack in the early days, right, Merlin? Or you encountered him? Just very, very, I mean, like I was acquainted with him, and yeah, he was a nice guy.

Speaker ADid you ever share a bowl of mixed berries?

MerlinNot as much as I'd like. No, I mean, like I knew of him before I met him, and then when I met him, I was just really excited back in the Odeo days. It was really nice to meet him because he'd made a Mac service that I liked under a kind of a pseudonym. And it was really nice to meet him. He's always seemed like a nice guy who's, I mean, you know, I don't have anything negative to say about the Jack that I have known somewhat personally.

MaxThat's such a good way to put it. That's what I've heard from everyone is that he's like, I mean, because I don't know anyone who knows him now. But I know people.

MerlinHe has, he has, he definitely has a very strange affect. But it's an affect that is not at all. See, I'm not trying, I don't mean to sound like I'm saying a thing here, but like he has a certain affect that you get if you've met a lot of people, you know, who do software engineering and like are in Silicon Valley. He has a certain kind of affectless, like weirdo feeling, but he didn't feel dangerous at all. He just seemed like a quiet guy.

Speaker ABut this stuff lately, the sort of interviews and the sort of statements and this sort of article just feels to me like a guy who is definitely feeling the weight of the platform he has created and the things and the consequences of it, I guess, a little bit, if that makes sense.

MaxEverything I've read about Jack Dorsey and all the people who have known him for a long time, I think he seems – he definitely is a smart – he's an intelligent guy. I think he's probably cooler than a lot of the Mark Zuckerberg types. He used to be a punk rock guy. He definitely is sort of like he knows about countercultural values and things like that. He's not like a weird space alien who has no conscience, right? Yeah.

MerlinI've never met Mark Zuckerberg, but I think that's actually a pretty good—or Elon Musk. Yes. That's a pretty good distinction. I don't think he's— He's not a pod. He's a weirdo, but he's not a pod person.

MaxRight. He's not a robot wearing a human skin suit. And at times in his life, he's been really in tune with these sort of countercultural or whatever ideas. Like I said, I think he used to be really into grunge and punk rock before he hit his sort of Steve Jobs phase. And I think that the cognitive dissonance of what is happening with Twitter in particular must be just unbearable for him. Because I think that there's a part of his brain that is cool and knows that Twitter is like the antithesis of punk rock.

And it's kind of like tearing society apart. And it's created Trump and it's anti whatever punk rock is supposed to be.

Speaker AThis stuff feels to me like almost the, you know, we were making a joke earlier about a hair shirt. But this sort of feels a little bit like that to me where it's like, I got to clean myself off.

MerlinWell, if you go back to that saga, if you go back to the saga of his meditation journey, which we covered here, I mean, that's, yeah. I mean, it sounds like there is a fun, oh, how does one say? I remember a stand-up comedian a long time ago making a crack about how, like, you know, it was a black comedian making a joke about all the stuff black people don't do. And at the time, I was like, ha-ha, that's a very funny joke, white people be doing like that. But it was like, no, we don't do this stuff. We don't do this incredibly dangerous stuff. We can't do this incredibly dangerous stuff. We don't have the time or the resources to climb the side of a mountain.

Like, we got shit to do. And, like, I think there is an element of, like, I need just so I can feel. Like, certainly he wants to be healthy. Certainly the pressures on him to do the fucking job that he has have to be unbearable. It's not a fun job to have. And he's doing a form of, like, actual self-care. Like, he's doing what he can to, like, keep it all together with his body. But, yeah.

MaxI have a slightly different read on it, which is, I think, do you guys know what cognitive dissonance is? Yeah. It's like an idea from psychology and the idea is you have, believe one thing about yourself and yet you find yourself doing the other thing, right? And so you're like, I am a good person, but I am doing this terrible thing. And people have this amazing ability to bridge those two things together so that you're like, you will preserve your sense of ego and identity and you'll be like, I know that I am not a bad person and so therefore the thing I'm doing can't be bad.

Merlinand like new and new information from the world we get into the backfire effect we're like new information from the world like might not change my mind so much as make me like double down on

Maxthe thing that i believe yes yes it's a and people i mean i'm sure we all i'm sure like like knowing about this doesn't make you immune from it i think people are especially in in sort of like late capitalism like everybody does like awful things all the time like every time we probably take an Uber, order food or whatever. You're implicated in these terrible things and you somehow resolve it. But to me, it's crystal clear what's happening here, which is Dorsey has this part of him that knows that what he's doing is supremely uncool and supremely un-punk rock, but he's

doing it. And so he has to kill or harm the part of himself that knows that what he's doing is a problem. And these behaviors are extremely self-destructive. Like he clearly, to me, whatever, that's an eating disorder. Like at some point, it's not a Tim Ferriss diet. At some point, you've affected an eating disorder. Walking 10 miles a day, plunging yourself into ice baths, sitting in a cave and getting bitten by mosquitoes so that you can meditate on the pain.

These are not. It's a little bit of self-flagellation. Yes. These are, this is the death instinct of like, I want to die. Like I can't, I can not bear this cognitive dissonance anymore. And I just have to, I just, I just want, I hope for annihilation. Like it's the only release I can have.

Speaker AHe's Heisenberg worried about the fly in the tank right now.

MaxYou know who else has this?

AlexThere we go. Another, all right. Jig Dug challenge. Hmm. What do you mean? Hmm. That was the perfect transition. Max set it up.

MerlinYou heard of a book? Who told me about this? Have you heard a book called The Righteous Mind? Why good people are divided by politics and religion? Have you heard about this book?

AlexYes.

MerlinHell of a book.

AlexYes.

MerlinOh, okay. So it's good that I got this in. I'm going to read this.

AlexWait, no. Yes, it's a very good, it's an actual very good book.

MerlinYeah, I mean, I'm just, I'm only on the introduction because I had to read Bad Blood. Oh, my God. I just finished Bad Blood and just started this last night. But, oh, such a good book. But anyway, so it's good to read this Writish Mind book, huh? Because I'm into the introduction. I'm already feeling bad about myself, which I think is good.

MaxYeah. Oh, yeah. Well, here's what I would tell you. my advice of reading that book is like the guy Jonathan Haidt is a pretty conservative guy so I don't think though to me what I tried to okay here's a cool thing about philosophy is like if you read a lot of philosophy you learn to stop reading things in terms of like I agree with this or I don't agree with it what you try to say what you try to read it as is like what would it be like if I could see the world from this point of view and you'd learn what you can from it without agreeing with it I do not agree with Jonathan Haidt's takeaways and his

politics like because he's lately he's sort of mostly known for doing like anti-campus like pc kind of stuff and he wrote about like the coddling of the american mind he's that guy and i don't agree with his politics but nonetheless like i find the world i think it's the clearest if you if you seek empathy if you want to understand that position this is the place for me that's so

Merlininteresting because i know this is failing me but there was a guy they interviewed on npr the other day who's like a pretty well-known uh center-right guy who was it god it's gonna drive me nuts but it was on atc the other day and it was an interview with this guy who you know that's that he's well known for that position and he does this but it sounds like more so it's a real hey guys hey guys kind of book like let's let's calm down let's calm down the rhetoric and the name calling but it seems to go a little further into that icky section of like stop noticing how much we suck well

Maxyou do not have to agree with his politics or take his political, his sort of moral lessons away from the book in order to have an enjoyable read of it. You can read the book and be like the stuff he's talking about is super interesting like the science he's discussing. I am told by people who work in psychology. He's a well-respected psychologist and his research is good. So that's what I took away from it and I think it has some really cool explanatory power. But you will feel like it's a gross book like just because i his politics are gross hey anthony thank you for

joining us where can people find your stuff if they would like to hear more oh thank you for

Speaker Ahaving me uh every wednesday i am on the star wars show which is the official show about everything star wars from lucasfilm that's at youtube.com star wars or star wars.com i also have a podcast right now with chuck wendig uh it's called chuck and anthony it used to be called chuck and anthony ragnatok we started off by doing uh every week we'd take 10 minutes of thor ragnarok and like break it down. Then we did John Wick. One good episode with Max Temkin. One hater. We brought one hater onto the show. I'm not a hater. You're a hater. I'm less enthusiastic.

Then we did John Wick, which we just finished up, and now we are doing the new Twilight Zone series, and it's great because Chuck is New York Times bestselling author, and we really kind of go in chunk by chunk and break down the story beats of everything we love. I did get the 10 best minutes of Thor of Ragnarok. You got a great 10 minutes. I genuinely think it's the best 10 minutes of the movie. That's called good guest booking.

MaxYeah.

Speaker AI figured you'd like that 10 minutes. It's the most Neil Simon 10 minutes in all of Thor Ragnarok. It's very good. Alright. Kind of hot in these

Alexrhinos. Let's go. Oh my god. I watched Ace Ventura

Speaker Aagain. Is there another? Oh I was just going to say social stuff is all a-carbony but I don't post because social stuff is a nightmare. Good for you man. You're free. You got out of the matrix. You took the blue pill, the red pill. I took one. I took both of the pills. Hell yeah. Both of the pills at once, baby. Dorsey style.

AlexDick Doug challenge. This week's challenge was oh wait, was it mine? Yes, it was. it was to spunk yourself and to watch the documentary I've already forgotten what Free Solo

Maxhow about this though let's just not do Free Solo and have Matt Howie on later and we'll talk about it

Alexbut it's not about climbing it's about it's basically toxic masculinity the movie oh my god

Maxyes oh man am I going to be the only one who defends this

Merlinstop looking at your stop looking at your phone

MaxI hate this movie

Merlinpay attention to what your girlfriend needs. So the challenge is spunk and free solo? Here, just touch. That's a very funny word. The challenge was to acquire and use what is called an acupressure mat. I've gotten you both

Alexgifts. Spunk. Hand and

Speaker Afoot acupressure groove ball.

AlexSo Merlin got me into acupressure shit. And I've just been. Did I?

MerlinI did that? I did that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

AlexYou told me to get the mat, so I got a mat.

MerlinAre you talking about the swirly balls? The swirling balls. The swirly spheres?

AlexNo, no, no. Spookball.

MerlinThat really gets in there, huh?

AlexYeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

MerlinThe acupressure mat concept was introduced to me from a back-to-work listener who suggested I try it. And it was real nice. And it was like, hey, listen, I know this sounds completely insane, but I've been doing this thing every night before bed, and I swear to God it helps my sleep. You might want to try it.

MaxWhat is it? So I have also had a positive experience with this. Like I find it very, very relaxing. What is it?

MerlinI think there may be, we should allow that there may be some placebo-like effects or misunderstanding the effect, but it absolutely, whatever I was doing in general made a difference. And I have a theory on this, but I'm so interested that you saw an effect. What's your theory of why it works? Well, you know, the thing, actually, you've talked about this in the sense of, like, we try to go, oh, okay, like, we can see this clear correlation between, you know, these people who are very successful because they went to a good college. And you're like, well, shit, man, you went to a good college because you got, like, lots of money and stuff.

And, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, where you misapprehend what that is, what the cause and the effect are. So just to be clear, do we need to explain what the mat is or should I just go to this? Yeah, explain it. So the mat, I mean, I want to follow up on this, but, boy, this section's a mess. And the acupressure mat is, depending on the one, you get a slightly padded mat that has what I would describe as spiky florets on it. It's got a bunch of like very surprisingly pointy little things like some kind of a torture bath mat. And it comes with a little pillow thing with the same spiky rosettes.

And the notion is that you, in one way or another, interact with this thing on your body. And it does something acupressory to you. And in my case, I think it helped me get to sleep better. And I got, like I said last time, I got to the point. And you can kind of do this to your own level of comfort, undress to your level of comfort.

AlexOh, gosh.

MerlinSo, like, you could do this on a bed with a sweatshirt on to start, or you could go all the way down to the Jack Dorsey level where, like, I would do it shirtless on a hard floor.

Speaker AMerlin's just got, like, a board of nails now. Like, Matt's not even doing it anymore.

MerlinWell, turns out that's a thing. Turns out that's a thing. And, like, I guess I kind of want to know the science. So my reckon on this is that, well, here's the thing. How about you calm the fuck down before bed? How about you don't look at your iPad for 20 minutes before bed? And I would get a little bit sleepy because I'm laying on the floor. I think my body, if I were listening, my body would already be telling me it's time for sleepy time, right?

Speaker AIt's time for the dreaming hours. I've gone in for acupuncture and done acupressure stuff before. And it's one of those things that strikes me as something that works, that has a scientific merit, but has hundreds and hundreds of years of mysticism that it's like you've got to cut through to get to why it works.

MerlinMaybe like yoga a little bit. It has an effect. And for stopping smoking or for certain kinds of even behaviors or I guess some physical things, I think it's got a pretty good track record on label for certain things.

MaxI have no idea. Leaving acupuncture aside because that freaks me out and I don't know if it works. I actually think it does work in clinical trials. But I have a good theory about the spunk in particular. So if you were to step, put all of your, if you were like woke up in the middle of the night to get a drink and you accidentally stepped on the spook and you just got like your toe, your big toe on it and you put all your weight on it, it would hurt like hell. Right, but you would instantly be healed.

That's the thing. If you put all of your weight on any one point, it would hurt like hell, right? And there's like a-

MerlinIt would be like stepping on a Lego, but here they're distributed and that's why the board of nails things work.

MaxExactly, that's the principle. So I think what happens is normally if you were to lie down with no awareness, you're probably all tense and you're probably like putting your, you're shifting your weight all into your shoulders or doing whatever you do in your tents and you're just sort of like not lying down in a relaxed way where all of your muscles are lying slack how they're supposed to right and I think when you're on the spook that hurts you because if you like are like putting all your weight onto your shoulder blades it you have pins digging into them exactly so I think it kind of makes you just become jello so that nothing

Alexhurts you know so you don't get poked by this mat i mean i had a similar theory of really it just makes you more aware of your body and so even if it's yeah yeah yeah even if it doesn't hurt you're just like oh yeah i'm laying on something spiky oh yeah yeah it's kind of like when you're like

Speaker Awhen you're getting a massage and you don't realize it and the person that's giving you a massage is like hey quit pushing against me while i'm giving you this massage have you ever had that happen oh wow where it's like no it's i believe where it's like somebody's getting into a point where I have a really big knot or something, my body naturally, I just want to flex against it.

MerlinThat happens to me when I'm falling asleep where there's a couple very specific muscle groups that if I have the presence of mind to remember, I'll go, what are you doing? Why are your shoulders almost up to your ears? It's the sleeping hours. Put those down. And if I remember to do that, and it's not so terribly different from my unified field theory about quote-unquote diets, which is just becoming aware of what you eat and what you would like in concert will make you better with food. I mean, within reason. But you know what I mean? The same idea here. It is basically like it's 101 mindfulness in some ways.

In this case, it's just like body awareness.

Speaker AI do the same thing. For the last couple of months, I've been just like entering the food stuff into like one of those food journal apps. And just doing it, you realize like, oh, okay, yeah, I am having 10 snacks a day when I thought I was having two. I wasn't even paying attention to that. Oh, okay. And now I just eat one meal a day. You're doing a chopper throcks and a treat witch. Just one meal a day and a bowl of berries, and I'm good.

MaxMaybe sometimes you have a real treat You have a little square of dark chocolate Sometimes Sometimes

MerlinIf I got a really good power walk-in I eat all I want And then just scald my balls

MaxYeah All right Are we gonna talk Should we talk about free solo?

MerlinWait a minute

MaxOkay Okay that's it?

MerlinThere's more?

MaxAll right No no That's not it

AlexOkay well hang on Hang on Hang on

Speaker ASo have you been using the spunk regularly? Has somebody been using the spunk regularly? No No Wait really? We used to have a spunk in the office.

MaxWe had an office spunk. No, we did. We did, yeah. It was a blue one. Eli got it, and we used it during writer's retreats because sometimes you just get really stressed out.

Speaker AHow are you cool with an office spunk and you're worried about a single fork coming out of a machine?

MaxBecause I know all of these people, and they all wash their hands after they put them in their butthole. But their hands are not on the spunk.

MerlinThese are people who fart prodigiously.

MaxThat's okay. The fart's fine. Everybody puts your hands on the spunk. Oh, God.

MerlinFarts are clean. It's like urine.

MaxI do not. You guys understand every... Listen. Okay. Listen. Listen. Every time you... Listen. Every time you...

Listen.

MaxEvery time you, like, eat something without washing your hands or you, like, you're with someone and you touch their... You put their hands... Every time you eat something without washing your hands... You're rolling a dice. An angel dies. You're rolling a dice. Okay? You're rolling probably, like... An orphan drowns. You're probably rolling, like, a hundred-sided die. And if you roll a zero, you'll get diarrhea.

MerlinCritical hit.

MaxNow, we all do that in our lives. You just roll the dice, and you probably don't get a zero, and that's fine.

MerlinAre the dice clean?

Speaker AYes. The dice came out of a little dispenser, so everybody gets their own dice. How many people are at Disney World? Seven at least.

MaxThere's probably tens of thousands of people. I actually don't know. Probably, yeah. How many times do you want to roll that dice? Oh, I see. You have to roll it for each person. Yes.

MerlinYou wouldn't use random.org.

Speaker ABut it resets every time like skydiving. That's why you can skydive 10 times and not die. Oh, I see. Turns out. You're saying, I get it.

MerlinOkay, it's like people's misapprehensions about how gambling works.

MaxIf I wanted to maximize my chances of not dying from skydiving.

Speaker AIn Vegas, they use four decks. That's the thing.

MerlinThat's right. They call it a shoe.

MaxIf I was going to maximize my chances of not dying in a skydiving accident, would I skydive You'd bring four decks.

Merlinonce or 10,000 times? Oh. Is it the same? Does it turn out? Is this a hidden brain thing?

MaxIt's the same probability every time, but you want to do it the fewest number of times

Speaker AHere's the thing, Merlin. You didn't even notice the gorilla. In this article, I read about an article. The gorilla was in the background the entire time.

MerlinNo, I'm not making fun of you. I'm making fun of Hidden Brain because it's the worst. I'm with you. You guys make fun of me. You're saying not even once.

MaxYou guys make fun of me all you want, but I'm just saying Dr. Don is listening. He's nodding his head and he's going, Max has got it. It's all about minimizing the risk and you want to have the best life you can have and minimize the risk as much as possible.

MerlinThat makes sense.

MaxAnd Disney World is high risk because a thousand people are touching that fork dispenser and every single time you're rolling the dice, rolling the dice, rolling the dice.

Speaker AI've seen a lot of motivational posters that tell me living your best life and minimizing the risk is impossible. I'm going to make... There was a cat on it and he was hanging from a tree.

MerlinOh, you're saying basically ships are safest in the harbor, something, something, that's not where they belong. That kind of thing? Yeah, exactly. Or like hanging their baby Friday's coming?

MaxBut in this case, the ship just goes to diarrhea town. That's the only way to go to diarrhea town.

Speaker AYou know, the monorail used to take you directly past Diarrhea Town in the 80s. And they'd say, Diarrhea Town is coming.

Show notes

Transcript

127. Astronaut Bread

Show notes

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